Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
Mike E wrote:Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
Germany is the one proposing the deal, but who knows!medo wrote:Mike E wrote:Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
Maybe Austria will sell their 15 Eurofighters as they don't have money to operate them.
higurashihougi wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.
I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.
And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.
Yep, unfortunately...sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?
God India, just choose already.
sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?
God India, just choose already.
Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.
I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.
And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.
That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.
magnumcromagnon wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.
I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.
And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.
That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.
Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:
1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.
2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!
ricky123 wrote:sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?
God India, just choose already.
the thing is they say Germany is giving some 50% discount . which makes the offer very tempting
according to EFT consortium every country is supposed to order certain number of fighters .if they dont they will have to pay a fine .
all of the countries involved in EFT have cut down on the orders .but if they get the indian order they can save the money . hence the discount .
does any1 else has any related news ?
WELL it is the french faultViktor wrote:Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India
considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French
still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.
magnumcromagnon wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.
I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.
And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.
That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.
Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:
1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.
2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!
Cost plus the fact that India already has MiGs, and is familiar with them.Viktor wrote:If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.
Mike E wrote:magnumcromagnon wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Mike E wrote:higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.
I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.
And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.
That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.
Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:
1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.
2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!
I'm 100% with you on both points, even more so on the second one... MiGs are excellent platforms for upgrading, and India already has not only the planes in their inventory, but the knowledge for good maintenance as well.
GarryB wrote:Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.
Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.
However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...
Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson. Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message... Mike E Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:11 pm
+GarryB wrote:Lowered cost is because of the delays and is part of the contract...
It does look good for the Indian Air Force, more so when you consider the low cost and as you later mentioned, the commonality.GarryB wrote:Common sense would say MiG-35... with an AESA radar and RVV-BD 300km range AAMs, not to mention the ability to carry 1.5 ton loads on its inner pylons.
Add to that simplification of the air fleet with the MiG-35 having commonality with the upgraded MiG-29s and MiG-29Ks of the Navy, and its ability to replace the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar, the MiG-23, and old model MiG-29s in service.
However this was all about keeping the pro west faction happy and they don't want another Russian plane... they wanted a Mirage 2000 or to produce M2K locally, but France insisted on Rafale and a ridiculous price... the MRCA was to evaluate Indias options and perhaps get France to reduce the price, which they clearly have not... 126 aircraft for $22 billion works out to $175 million per aircraft... a medium fourth gen fighter that likely will be more expensive than the heavy Fifth gen fighter they introduce...
Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.
Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.
Mike E wrote:Hmm, that would be great for both India and Russia... The "Mark 2" uses US made engines, but the "Mark 3" will not (it will use their indigenous engine). So either way they won't be using many foreign engines.medo wrote:India should also go for RD-33MK engine from MiG-29K in their Tejas plane to have the same engines for Tejas and MiG-29K fighters instead of having many different engines. Tejas have US engines, which could be quickly under sanctions, Eurofighter use its own engines and MiG-29 its own engines. This would be also good for Indian Navy, if Tejas and MiG-29K operating together on carrier, use the same engine. Better for logistics.
Buying Eurofighters from Germany instead of Rafales from France is good idea as this mean disarming of NATO in central Europe. Problem is, that German Eurofighters are less equipped ones without IRST and Germans also don't have targeting pods for them. As I said, India should also buy Eurofighers from Austria and Spain. Maybe even Italy will sell some.
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