Indian MMRCA competition: News

This isn't 100% relevant, but it has something to do with the possible Rafale cancellation...

India Considers Buying 126 Eurofighters From Germany


MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) - India may acquire 126 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft from Germany, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported Monday.
Indian and German officials are once again negotiating a multibillion-dollar deal for the delivery of 126 German-made fighter jets to India, the agency reported, citing German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
India and Germany previously discussed a similar deal, but India decided against the Eurofighter jets in 2012 and chose to acquire French-produced Dassault Rafale combat aircraft instead. However, an agreement has not been reached so far.
The value of the possible contract is estimated at 7.6 billion euro (about $9.8 billion), according to the agency. Eurofighters are produced by the Bavaria-based Eurofighter GmbH company.
Steinmeier is currently in India, where he has been in talks with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj. The topics under discussion were trade, investment, high tech cooperation and renewable energy collaboration, according to the Indian Ministry of External Affairs.
 
- It seems like the Eurofighters would either replace, or supplement the Rafales... I would be very disappointed if this goes through!

I doubt France would completely cancel the deal... It seems like it will be a simple delay and that is it.

Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson. Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

I disagree... good future relations with France is worth rather more than the short term satisfaction of getting revenge... a wisdom that is well beyond the US administration.

If France talks openly about what it will do in the future should Russian behaviour not meet their requirements then Russia can simply think about that for a bit and work out some reaction to these threatened sanctions that will hurt France rather more than it will hurt Russia or her Navy.

Remember Russia was supposed to get its first carrier this year and its next next year so one can assume that port facilities and support equipment are already in place to allow their operation and training.

Lots of investment for nothing... if you don't want to spend money don't have carriers... if you want a blue water navy you need air cover/support.

Imo Russia doesn't need those mistrals. If France would cancel this deal then Russia would receive surplus money.Also, India would then cancel it's deal for overpriced Rafale and get Russian MIGs.

Despite my hopes the Rafale was chosen because it wasn't Russian and they don't want all their important aircraft to come from one country.

If Rafale gets cut it will likely be German produced Typhoons...

http://en.ria.ru/business/20140908/192746713/India-Considers-Buying-126-Eurofighters-From-Germany.html

126 Typhoons for $9.8 Billion is less than half the price...

- It seems like the Eurofighters would either replace, or supplement the Rafales... I would be very disappointed if this goes through!

I doubt France would completely cancel the deal... It seems like it will be a simple delay and that is it.

The MRCA was for 126 planes... if they buy 126 Typhoons that means 0 Rafales.

They don't seem to care about standardisation... perhaps a 50/50 split of Typhoons and Rafales and later if they develop EM cats they could look at naval Rafales too.

GarryB wrote:

Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

I disagree... good future relations with France is worth rather more than the short term satisfaction of getting revenge... a wisdom that is well beyond the US administration.

Unfortunately you are right, but it's nice to dream of a little cold revenge I have to say I am HUGELY dissappointed with arse-licker Hollande.  I never would have expected that I would hate that man as such as the perfidious rat Sarkozy.  It's interesting to consider how things may have been different had Dominique Strauss Kahn manged to avoid the blatant honey-trap in New York that succeeded in ruining his political career.  Would he have been such a pathetic doormat as the current squatter inhabiting the Elysee Palace?

GarryB wrote:

Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

I disagree... good future relations with France is worth rather more than the short term satisfaction of getting revenge... a wisdom that is well beyond the US administration.

If France talks openly about what it will do in the future should Russian behaviour not meet their requirements then Russia can simply think about that for a bit and work out some reaction to these threatened sanctions that will hurt France rather more than it will hurt Russia or her Navy.

Remember Russia was supposed to get its first carrier this year and its next next year so one can assume that port facilities and support equipment are already in place to allow their operation and training.

Lots of investment for nothing... if you don't want to spend money don't have carriers... if you want a blue water navy you need air cover/support.

Imo Russia doesn't need those mistrals. If France would cancel this deal then Russia would receive surplus money.Also, India would then cancel it's deal for overpriced Rafale and get Russian MIGs.

Despite my hopes the Rafale was chosen because it wasn't Russian and they don't want all their important aircraft to come from one country.

If Rafale gets cut it will likely be German produced Typhoons...

http://en.ria.ru/business/20140908/192746713/India-Considers-Buying-126-Eurofighters-From-Germany.html

126 Typhoons for $9.8 Billion is less than half the price...

- It seems like the Eurofighters would either replace, or supplement the Rafales... I would be very disappointed if this goes through!

I doubt France would completely cancel the deal... It seems like it will be a simple delay and that is it.

The MRCA was for 126 planes... if they buy 126 Typhoons that means 0 Rafales.

They don't seem to care about standardisation... perhaps a 50/50 split of Typhoons and Rafales and later if they develop EM cats they could look at naval Rafales too.

Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!

Mike E wrote:Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!

Please clarify Mike.

AlfaT8 wrote:

Mike E wrote:Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!

Please clarify Mike.

No problem...

It would;

A) Cost more... They could buy more MiG-35 or Su-35 etc for the money. (Though it would cost less than the Rafale.)

B) The EF, while not a bad jet, isn't close to being the *best* jet as of now. Many people agree that the Rafale (among others) is superior to the EF.

C) While it is good not to put all your eggs in one basket (by buying more Russian jets) it is just as bad if not worse to buy polar opposites. The EF would need completely different mechanics, maybe even pilots, not to mention that they probably already have the Rafale's mechanic/pilot problem etc fixed. Heck, they couldn't use most of their (mainly Russian based) armaments on the jet!

D) Not really to do with India themselves, but the West has been shaky when it comes to weapon sales and deliveries lately. It was their influence that caused the delay of the Mistral.

E) The avionics would be severely downgraded coming from Germany, more so than what Russia would do.

F) It has had reliability problems in the past, most of which have been expensive to fix/repair.

G) This may sound ridiculous, but... The EF's design really isn't all that great and is beginning to age. - It really is a "no-frills" fighter, and that isn't a good thing for India... - No thrust vectoring of any kind, engines aren't all that powerful, basic delta wing configuration etc.

Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

Mike E wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

Mike E wrote:Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!

Please clarify Mike.

No problem...

It would;

A) Cost more... They could buy more MiG-35 or Su-35 etc for the money. (Though it would cost less than the Rafale.)

B) The EF, while not a bad jet, isn't close to being the *best* jet as of now. Many people agree that the Rafale (among others) is superior to the EF.

C) While it is good not to put all your eggs in one basket (by buying more Russian jets) it is just as bad if not worse to buy polar opposites. The EF would need completely different mechanics, maybe even pilots, not to mention that they probably already have the Rafale's mechanic/pilot problem etc fixed. Heck, they couldn't use most of their (mainly Russian based) armaments on the jet!

D) Not really to do with India themselves, but the West has been shaky when it comes to weapon sales and deliveries lately. It was their influence that caused the delay of the Mistral.

E) The avionics would be severely downgraded coming from Germany, more so than what Russia would do.

F) It has had reliability problems in the past, most of which have been expensive to fix/repair.

G) This may sound ridiculous, but... The EF's design really isn't all that great and is beginning to age. - It really is a "no-frills" fighter, and that isn't a good thing for India... - No thrust vectoring of any kind, engines aren't all that powerful, basic delta wing configuration etc.

Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

Thx Mike.

I see a big political problem that will directly impact military capability in logistical (spare parts, cost,maintenance and long term contracts for surveys and training) will be harmed by politics which are forced upon the vassal countries France and Germany. When India is going for any of those aircrafts it will have to bow down to the west when (not if, just when the time comes) they start trying to pressure India against Russia and China and use this jets as a leverage. Not the first time that happend we see it with Mistrals, that will directly impact on Indias EF/Rafaels and therefor they will have to decide be a bitch for some birds that are overprized and not best in their class or lose the entire thing and stay in their camp which they are right now.

Why would someone knowingly choose a product that will most probably used against him as a blackmail attempt?
MIC and Military bribed lobbyists need their arses kicked.

Werewolf wrote:I see a big political problem that will directly impact military capability in logistical (spare parts, cost,maintenance and long term contracts for surveys and training) will be harmed by politics which are forced upon the vassal countries France and Germany. When India is going for any of those aircrafts it will have to bow down to the west when (not if, just when the time comes) they start trying to pressure India against Russia and China and use this jets as a leverage. Not the first time that happend we see it with Mistrals, that will directly impact on Indias EF/Rafaels and therefor they will have to decide be a bitch for some birds that are overprized and not best in their class or lose the entire thing and stay in their camp which they are right now.

Why would someone knowingly choose a product that will most probably used against him as a blackmail attempt?
MIC and Military bribed lobbyists need their arses kicked.

That too... Without help from the West, the EFs would be sitting ducks that can't fight back...

Those Eurofighters for India will be ex-GermanAF planes or new build planes? Eurofighter is not a German plane, but is produced together by Germany, UK, Spain and Italy. All planes have parts from all four states. This is even more dangerous for case of sanction. Even if 3 states agree to keep selling planes, 1 state could impose sanctions and plane could not be build. Same go for spare parts.

medo wrote:Those Eurofighters for India will be ex-GermanAF planes or new build planes? Eurofighter is not a German plane, but is produced together by Germany, UK, Spain and Italy. All planes have parts from all four states. This is even more dangerous for case of sanction. Even if 3 states agree to keep selling planes, 1 state could impose sanctions and plane could not be build. Same go for spare parts.

I think they would be "used" as Germany would be the one selling them.

Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

I would suggest that it is not a proposal... it is a threat to France regarding the price of the 126 Rafales (ie 22 billion is too much)... it would be cheaper to use that money and create a new joint venture with MiG to develop a new light 5th gen fighter, but instead they will end up with 126 largely obsolete fighters that eventually get into service.

GarryB wrote:

Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

I would suggest that it is not a proposal... it is a threat to France regarding the price of the 126 Rafales (ie 22 billion is too much)... it would be cheaper to use that money and create a new joint venture with MiG to develop a new light 5th gen fighter, but instead they will end up with 126 largely obsolete fighters that eventually get into service.

They are proposing it as we speak, which means for now that it is a proposal. It could go farther than that though...

Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

Mike E wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

I would suggest that it is not a proposal... it is a threat to France regarding the price of the 126 Rafales (ie 22 billion is too much)... it would be cheaper to use that money and create a new joint venture with MiG to develop a new light 5th gen fighter, but instead they will end up with 126 largely obsolete fighters that eventually get into service.

They are proposing it as we speak, which means for now that it is a proposal. It could go farther than that though...

Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

The question is why the indian top brass want to buy 4th gen european fighters. In the near term i would understand that you want to have different supply routes (russian and western fighters) when your own industry laks the expertise to build a comparible aircraft. Also in the near term, these aircraft have enough capabilities to match current threats. In the mid term, these aircraft can play a significant role. But it depends on strategy (why to use them) and also on tactics (how to use them). In the mid term they will have a heavy stealth fighter (FGFA). But for defence at the home base. There will be no need for a ´stealthy´ medium fighter. The indian defence is like a version of the russian airspace defence strategy.

But on the other hand. I would love to see the indians spend their money on russian tech. Maby we will see an medium MIG stealth figher in the future.

EKS wrote:

Mike E wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

I would suggest that it is not a proposal... it is a threat to France regarding the price of the 126 Rafales (ie 22 billion is too much)... it would be cheaper to use that money and create a new joint venture with MiG to develop a new light 5th gen fighter, but instead they will end up with 126 largely obsolete fighters that eventually get into service.

They are proposing it as we speak, which means for now that it is a proposal. It could go farther than that though...

Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

The question is why the indian top brass want to buy 4th gen european fighters. In the near term i would understand that you want to have different supply routes (russian and western fighters) when your own industry laks the expertise to build a comparible aircraft. Also in the near term, these aircraft have enough capabilities to match current threats. In the mid term, these aircraft can play a significant role. But it depends on strategy (why to use them) and also on tactics (how to use them). In the mid term they will have a heavy stealth fighter (FGFA). But for defence at the home base. There will be no need for a ´stealthy´ medium fighter. The indian defence is like a version of the russian airspace defence strategy.

But on the other hand. I would love to see the indians spend their money on russian tech. Maby we will see an medium MIG stealth figher in the future.

India really hasn't expressed "much" interest yet... Hopefully they avoid the EF and find a more advanced (5th gen?) alternative.

Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

Obviously a western website and the Su-35 has its TVC turned off... it simply wouldn't matter what sort of fly by wire software you had or what sort of flight control surfaces you have, or their size, thrust vectoring engines means post stall manouver capability.

The MiG-35 will be on the list with Su-35 before you see any other aircraft... third would probably be the F-22 or a eurocanard...

The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft... as is the Rafale... which is why the Indians want it, but 22 billion for 126 planes...  that is about 175 million per plane... the FFGA likely wont cost that much... 9.8 billion for 126 is much better 78 million per aircraft.. vastly more sensible and reasonable.

Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

What do you mean losing? The contract is for delivery of 16 and domestic production in India of the rest... I am sure the other partners in the program will accept that if it means a work share for them and profits for them... and they would likely love a chance to stick it to France for beating them in the original competition...

The fact is that India is a mix of religions and bias... in terms of bias some look to the west and some look to the Russians. at the end of the day their policy of diversity keeps both groups happy... the pro Russians can fly around in their MiGs and Sukhois, while the pro west guys flew around in Jaguars and Mirage 2000s.

the problem was created when India wanted more Mirage 2000s and France refused to sell them or production rights to them. they demanded India buy Rafales for a ridiculous price. India refused and created the MRCA program to get France to deliver 126 aircraft for 10 billion dollars. France won the competition but India is paying 175 million dollars per aircraft so France really did win that competition.

The idea of aircraft diversity makes sense but it is supposed to make aircraft supply reliable... not horrendously expensive and now with France threatening sanctions more unreliable than products from the Soviet Union or Russia have ever been.

Personally I think they would be better off buying 400 MiG-29M2s, which would fully replace most light fighters and multirole aircraft like MiG-23 and Jaguar and the Mirage 2000, and in 10 years time decide whether they need a medium or light stealth fighter or if they should go for more drones.

I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.

GarryB wrote:

Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

Obviously a western website and the Su-35 has its TVC turned off... it simply wouldn't matter what sort of fly by wire software you had or what sort of flight control surfaces you have, or their size, thrust vectoring engines means post stall manouver capability.

The MiG-35 will be on the list with Su-35 before you see any other aircraft... third would probably be the F-22 or a eurocanard...

The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft... as is the Rafale... which is why the Indians want it, but 22 billion for 126 planes...  that is about 175 million per plane... the FFGA likely wont cost that much... 9.8 billion for 126 is much better 78 million per aircraft.. vastly more sensible and reasonable.

Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

What do you mean losing? The contract is for delivery of 16 and domestic production in India of the rest... I am sure the other partners in the program will accept that if it means a work share for them and profits for them... and they would likely love a chance to stick it to France for beating them in the original competition...

The fact is that India is a mix of religions and bias... in terms of bias some look to the west and some look to the Russians. at the end of the day their policy of diversity keeps both groups happy... the pro Russians can fly around in their MiGs and Sukhois, while the pro west guys flew around in Jaguars and Mirage 2000s.

the problem was created when India wanted more Mirage 2000s and France refused to sell them or production rights to them. they demanded India buy Rafales for a ridiculous price. India refused and created the MRCA program to get France to deliver 126 aircraft for 10 billion dollars. France won the competition but India is paying 175 million dollars per aircraft so France really did win that competition.

The idea of aircraft diversity makes sense but it is supposed to make aircraft supply reliable... not horrendously expensive and now with France threatening sanctions more unreliable than products from the Soviet Union or Russia have ever been.

Personally I think they would be better off buying 400 MiG-29M2s, which would fully replace most light fighters and multirole aircraft like MiG-23 and Jaguar and the Mirage 2000, and in 10 years time decide whether they need a medium or light stealth fighter or if they should go for more drones.

Ok. I didn't have that information at the time...  16 is a lot for the German Airforce, but I guess they do rely on NATO...

I agree, they need a larger number of lighter weight aircraft! (MiGs...)

medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.

Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.

higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) – India may acquire 126 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft from Germany, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported Monday.
Indian and German officials are once again negotiating a multibillion-dollar deal for the delivery of 126 German-made fighter jets to India, the agency reported, citing German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
India and Germany previously discussed a similar deal, but India decided against the Eurofighter jets in 2012 and chose to acquire French-produced Dassault Rafale combat aircraft instead. However, an agreement has not been reached so far.
The value of the possible contract is estimated at 7.6 billion euro (about $9.8 billion), according to the agency. Eurofighters are produced by the Bavaria-based Eurofighter GmbH company.
Steinmeier is currently in India, where he has been in talks with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj. The topics under discussion were trade, investment, high tech cooperation and renewable energy collaboration, according to the Indian Ministry of External Affairs.
Source : RIA Novosti

http://defenceradar.com/2014/09/09/india-considers-buying-126-eurofighters-from-germany/

there are many other sources reporting this news ....

So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

God India, just choose already.