Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

Okay, T-90M then.

I would tend to think that a larger stock of T-90s would represent a heftier return in an investment into an extended Tagil (or whatever name it goes by now, or was that just export?) program. Reduction in costs over time due to T-14 mass production and prolonged (due to theoretical larger stock) T-90 overhauls would mean an overall increase in cost-benefit ratios. A smaller stock means a large initial outlay cost for a reasonably small amount of gain.

EDIT: As for T-72B2 I think not having the T-14 established at the time was the biggest issue. Componentry is cheaper when your big bro is already creating the demand and improving the prices.

Besides B3, what other model is there for T-72 they mentioned that would be beyond it? or is B3 the last one?

Well, there are two.

The B3M with the independent TC sight + 1130 hp engine.

And the new one with new ERA, grate armour, plus the same 1130 hp engine.

Nothing too crazy, but that's not a bad thing really.

Mike E wrote:That as well. The Gov's support for UVZ was proven (again) when they gave additional funding this last December.

Kind of unrelated, but apparent ChTZ has paid off debts & plans to increase production by 2.5 times in the not too far future.

T-90M is not need IF T-14 can be put into service at the promised rates. If it can't, then the M would be a good substitute.

T-72B's won't be getting any upgrades past the new one we just heard about, at least for Russia. There'd be no point.

With T-72B3 can still be gradually transferred to Syria/Iran orsold on intl market.  But low number of T-90M IMHO you´re not correct that with T-14 they are not needed anymore. Still way better then  T-72 and probably way cheaper than T-14.

T-90AM is still the best option to face out older generation tanks that are either stored or planned to be faced out but are kept in storage due to lack of current plans to replace them. 2300 T-14's or not is still not a high number and russia should increase its number of tanks on T-90A or even T-90AM level which have a higher fidelity of technological level that will make them more effective to accompany T-14's on the battlefield due to higher protection and Kalina FCS that brings it about any foreign counterparts and closer to T-14's. We have to face the simple fact that US will through any NATO slave as human shields towards russia as long US exists and russia has to be prepared for either a long war or a financial decapitation that is focused to its limits and preferably beyond to put that demon out for once and for all.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

With T-72B3 can still be gradually transferred to Syria/Iran orsold on intl market.  But low number of T-90M IMHO you´re not correct that with T-14 they are not needed anymore. Still way better then  T-72 and probably way cheaper than T-14.

"T-90M is not need IF T-14 can be put into service at the promised rates. If it can't, then the M would be a good substitute."

B3's will be sold or given away once T-14 arrives.

Russia is a very big country.. is a continent . And if Americans wanted to attack Russia it will
do it the Syrian way ,by proxy with Foreign mercenaries /terrorist combined with traitors/criminals inside Russia and will do it after they manage to default Russia economy or
get them isolated in the world from Europe.

So Russia needs much more tanks than all the numbers told here.

Russia already have near 1,000 T-90 tanks.. it will be good that they upgrade them to T-AM.

Russia have near 5,000 T-72 old ones.. it will be good that Russia upgrade them to T-72b3.

When it comes to Armata , Russia needs to secure many fronts , from very dangerous enemies local and external. That said..

~About 12,000 T-14/T-15/Boomerang.Armata tanks Russia needs.

1)3,000 armata for the far east
2) 500 for Caucasus
3) 1,000 through all border with Ukraine ,
4) 1,000 with border with baltics and stpeterburg.
5) 1,000 near Russia artic near Norway.
6) 500 of Kaliningrad.
7) Another 3,000 in reserve for central Russia to be supplied to any place need.
8)and another 1,000 tanks in the Area of Armenia in case needs to defend against Turkey.
9)and about 700 for Crimea in case need to invade Ukraine from there

the T-72 and t-90 tanks should be used against low level insurgency and Armata against
well armed terrorist with NATO weapons. or NATO powers.

I'll leave it at that

T-90AM would still be a good vehicle in places where the enemy is not state of the art... for instance in Syria or Afghanistan where the most expensive vehicles are not needed but you still want to protect your crewmen.

AFAIK T-90AM is not an upgrade however... they would be new build tanks.

AFAIK the Russians and Soviets had a tradition of training on older obsolete tanks and then having transition training to the new vehicles to reduce wear and tear on their new vehicles... a bit like learning navigation with a compass and paper map and doing exercises with them and then for one training session use GLONASS and tablets...

T-90s would make good reserve vehicles too as older trained troops mobilised will be more familiar with the T-72 based vehicle too.

And of course finally even with 2,000 Armata based MBTs currently they have a total of 6,000 MBTs in service limited by the CFE treaty, though they have withdrawn from that they have not added that many new units so numbers would be about this.

Armata is the heavy vehicle family that might make up 20% 0r 30% of the whole force, so I would expect 2000 Armata MBTs, probably 1,000 Kurganets MBTs, and 2,000 Boomerang MBTs and 1,000 Typhoon MBTs.

The wheeled vehicles being much cheaper to buy and to operate and with modern sensors and weapons and self defence systems should be very capable systems.

T-72B3s would be rather capable tanks and would be first line tanks in more than 60% of the countries of the world today.

Powerful guns with first rate ammo, modern optics and communications equipment... what is not to like... I would donate them to allies like Vietnam or Cuba or Syria or Iraq as production orders for more would benefit both... AM related upgrades would further improve performance too.

First of all Russian dont have ~1000 T-90 all version. They have less then 500 operational T-90s witch ~32 of them are T-90A fist model made from 2004-2006 with Buran M thermovision and ~337 T-90A with ESSE thermovision licenced french Catherine FC thermovision produced form 2006-2011/12. Also Russia have T-90 (~120) made from 1992-1998 many of then are not operational.

So if they want to upgrade urs T-90A to AM it will be this latest model made from 2006-2011.

Today we can see in Syria T-90s first two models T-90 and T-90A produce from 1992-2006, not latest T-90As...

galicije83 wrote:First of all Russian dont have ~1000 T-90 all version. They have less then 500 operational T-90s witch ~32  of them are T-90A fist model made from 2004-2006 with Buran M thermovision  and ~337 T-90A with ESSE thermovision licenced french Catherine FC thermovision produced form 2006-2011/12. Also Russia have T-90 (~120) made from 1992-1998 many of then are not operational.

So if they want to upgrade urs T-90A to AM it will be this latest model made from 2006-2011.

Today we can see in Syria T-90s first two models T-90 and T-90A produce from 1992-2006, not latest T-90As...

and theoretically they all can be upgraded to T-90M standard?

galicije83 wrote:First of all Russian dont have ~1000 T-90 all version. They have less then 500 operational T-90s witch ~32  of them are T-90A fist model made from 2004-2006 with Buran M thermovision  and ~337 T-90A with ESSE thermovision licenced french Catherine FC thermovision produced form 2006-2011/12. Also Russia have T-90 (~120) made from 1992-1998 many of then are not operational.

So if they want to upgrade urs T-90A to AM it will be this latest model made from 2006-2011.

Today we can see in Syria T-90s first two models T-90 and T-90A produce from 1992-2006, not latest T-90As...

according to this Russia have 743 T-90 tanks..

Россия — более 543 единиц Т-90/Т-90А (и ещё 200 единиц находятся на хранении),

google translate....
Russia - More than 543 units of T-90 / T-90A (and another 200 units in storage), as of 2015

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Т-90

and with the new crisis with Turkey and with the world ambient of world war , is very likely production of T-90 will go up and will have about 1,000 or more just this year when the probability of a major war with the west is closer and closer. I will not be surprised if Russia is producing T-90s like there is no tomorrow stocking them in secret. you will not reveal your enemies the real  inventory size of your military.

This is why i believe Russia needs not just "good enough". but a real strong force that they
can deploy in many fronts at the same time. The Americans are really desperate to destroy Russia by any way or means.. so Russia should expect more Syria like proxy wars in the future
with terrorism.

the battle fields US can target Russia by proxy are so many .

1)Syria.. already there.
2)Ukraine.. already there undercovertly.
3) Moldova and Ukraine attack on tranistria on Russians.
4) Armenia vs Azerbaijan conflict.
5)Serbia vs muslin terrorist from Bosnia.
6)Kaliningrad. by muslins well armed from Poland.
7)All Russian Border with Ukraine can be a battlefield against Russia.
8)Tajikistan ,an invasion from ISIS in afganistan armed by Americans.
9)from Georgia attack on chechenia. already Lavrov just today told ISIS have training camps
in Georgia
10)Attack on far east on kamchatka by mercenaries invasion there. helped by Americans.
11)Armenia vs Azerbaijan conflict ,again fueled by Americans.
12) IRAQ.. Russia could be forced to invade IRAQ too.

And all those fronts to defend allies will require a major deployment of tanks.
This is why i believe Russia needs at least 12,000 Armata but even more under ideal conditions.
So if a tank needs a repair quickly is replaced by a new one. and to have few thousands of them in reserves.

The thing people needs to understand is that Americans will not blink to use a nuclear weapon against Russia ,if they ever have the opportunity to do it. You don't understand how they think.
The Neocons do not care about its own citizens  And there are hardliners in the west that will consider losing 40 millions Americans acceptable if they can defeat Russia in a nuclear war.

So Russia needs to be better prepared for a war with Americans with tanks in europe in the case they totally lose their mind and start attacking Russia through Ukraine with chemical and biological warfare. Russia needs to be prepared for everything. that a real mad man or women takes control of USA and start making the life impossible for millions of Russians through terrorism and or undercover biological and chemical attacks. .This is why Russia needs many Armata tanks as many as 20,000 ,30,000 or more. Not to fight small wars but to be prepared for a world war. and Liberate berling again. Because it might be needed to once again liberate Europe from American fascism and kick their military bases there.

Even with Turkey ,what if Turkey start attacking Russia with cruise missiles? what will Russia do? turn the other cheek? using cruise missiles will not remove erdogan from power. not even with nukes..if they hide in Bunkers. would not be more practical to just invade
Turkey and remove by force the government as they did with  hitler ,than Russia bombing civilians with nukes in Turkey? that later will turn against Russia ?  This is why Russia needs a really big tank force to counter any possible hostile scenario. Taking a big piece of land of Turkey like controlling Istanbul and the access to mediterranean sea ,in case of war. better Russia be prepared ,with a 20,000 -30,000 armata force and not need them.than to say sorry later and need them.

people usually underestimate Russia enemies to do evil things , and their determination to
attack Russia. Nobody expected Turkey will be shooting down Russian planes before, now is a reality. Erdogan psicopath man and dont care about Russian nukes ,is a muslin fanatic who helps ISIS. and Americans will try to get him start a war with Russia.  So Russia will need to prepare for any kind of scenario.

all said ,Russia needs to be prepared for the unthinkable. To have an army capable of invading
Turkey, invading Europe or even USA with China help. you never know what could happen.
the war against Hitler could have never stopped had Russia never invaded berlin.
ISIS for example could take control of turkey with American help.. or Erdogan himself could become ISIS leader and start blockading Russia business in the mediterranean sea. something that will mean Russia will have to fight them.  with just 2,000 Armata tanks is not enough for Russia to fight outside its borders to invade another big power while at the same time keeping secure all parts of Russia federation.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
and theoretically they all can be upgraded to T-90M standard?

Yes but price of modernization of T-90 first series is huge, because then must build new turrets, because turret on T-90 is cast not welded, they must made new autoloader for him. Literally they would build a new tank, similarly to the modernization of tank T-72 on the BM standard, which was too expensive. Its far easier to modernize A series with latest upgrades then old one made from 1992-1998. Because of that Russian will be upgrade only T-90As made from 2006-2011/12, not T-90As made from 2004-2006.

Russian will be modernized 337 T-90A, they will not build new ones unfortunately. In my opinion its stupid idea and i think that is far batter to have 500 more new built T-90As then lod T-72B modernized to B3 standard...T72 was and still is shitty tank....

wikipedia is not the true source of the real number of the T-90A tanks in the Russian army, and I have other sources that say little differently then wikipedia.

My number of T-90 all series in Russian army is right...

1st Guards Tank Army was re-formed in the Western military district (ZVO). Russian Defense Ministry reported in 1st of February.

Подробнее на ТАСС:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2632366&usg=ALkJrhhnpczlRpcNS6qUECIl9OxF_pEbgw

galicije83 wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
and theoretically they all can be upgraded to T-90M standard?

Yes but price of modernization of T-90 first series is huge, because then must build new turrets, because turret on T-90 is cast not welded, they must made new autoloader for him. Literally they would build a new tank, similarly to the modernization of tank T-72 on the BM standard, which was too expensive.  Its far easier to modernize A series with latest upgrades then old one made from 1992-1998. Because of that Russian will be upgrade only T-90As made from 2006-2011/12, not T-90As made from 2004-2006.

Russian will be modernized 337 T-90A, they will not build new ones unfortunately. In my opinion its stupid idea and i think that is far batter to have 500 more new built T-90As then lod T-72B modernized to B3 standard...T72 was and still is shitty tank....

It is the best tank among the second generation of tanks, the only second gen tank that has anywhere near the chance to be even on the battlefield with 3rd gen MBT's while 2nd gen tanks of the west like Chieftain were not even a challane for old T-62 (1st gen tanks). It is the best in its class hands down.

My number of T-90 all series in Russian army is right...

The following dots tell a great insecurity in your own numbers aswell like most would have with your numbers.

I have not kept track of numbers nor do i have the will or time for that but there should be 500-600 of them in service.

dots are my trade mark on any forum...

here it is all of T-90s made for russian army...its on russian and i can translate for u and rest of u...


ass u can see in 2011/12 when they finished manufacture this tanks it was less then 500 T-90 all series made for russian army...

so my numbers are correct, mate...

At the top it also says that those numbers with * haven't been verified.

galicije83 wrote:wikipedia is not the true source of the real number  of the T-90A tanks in the Russian army, and I have other sources that say little differently then wikipedia.

My number of T-90 all series in Russian army is right...

It could be , i dont know.. i only provided the source from where i got my info.
You haven't provided yours.

Whatever the case is , neither 500 ,neither 1,000 is enough.
Russia military is not prepared to fight all kind of scenarios. The believe that Russian nuclear
weapons is enough to save Russia or be a deterrent to any enemy as GaryB believe is completely FALSE.

Nuclear weapons as deterrence only works if your enemies have sanity. ie.. that they care
about human lives and their people and their country and dont want to see it destroyed.
But if your enemy is a Psychopath. With mental disorders , lets say Erdogan for example.
or someone like Hillary Clinton that gets pre -selected by the US elite ,the true personification of evil , or the enemy is criminal /corrupt organization that is under influence of USA lets say RIght Sector takes controls of Ukraine in kiev. The truly Russia will be in danger its nation security if
their enemies start attacking Russia with weapons . What will Russia do if Erdogan turn really crazy and makes alliance with ISIS openly and declare war on Russia and start a crackdown on
all its citizens who oppose its war.. What is Russia going to do if Turkey start atacking Russia with cruise missiles and block the hormuz strait to any Russian warship? and start arresting/killing all ethnic Russians (50,000 ) that made their lives in turkey with a turkey wife.
What will Russia do? What is Russian nuclear weapons going to do to protect Russia? Nothing.
it will have a Nation attacking/killing Russians on its land.. (as ukraine is doing in donbass) but also blockading all Russia legitimate commerce in the mediterranean sea with sourthern Europe.middle east and Africa.  it will be a declaration of war.. what is Russian nukes going to do to change the mind of a Psychopath sick man that will not cease hostilities against them?

then Russia be forced to fight back. And again nukes will be useless against people that do not reason and do not care about dying or their country and citizens destroyed.  see?
So the only choices Russia will have is waste  its nuclear weapons on Turkey ,(that they will need against Americans). Killing millions ,and still that will not remove Erdogan from power ,since they all have bunkers made by Americans deep underground. or an invasion of Turkey.

Russia is on a really dangerous time ,close to world war 2 dangers. US senate is preparing for increasing the hostilities against Russia.. by giving Obama unlimited powers for war at any time under any pretext. So they could very easily provoke a war at the same
time between UKRAINE + TURKEY. then what will Russia do?  Those T-72s and T-90s will not have a chance against Javeline or spike missiles top attack missiles guided by wire, that the pentagon can supply to both nations.

and in an invasion of a country of the size of Turkey,  Russia will need on its inventory no less than a dozen thousand of Armata tanks. 2,000 will not be enough. because Russia needs to defend Far east , central Russia, and eastern Russia and kaliningrad and crimea and the border with Ukraine and caucasus, and armenia and tajikistan.  The reason is because Americans are already in an undeclared war against Russia,they want to destroy Russia plain and simple and they have the capabilities to get Russia into a fight in many front lines at the same time to exhaust all its army capabilities.  

Very easily US can get Russia into a fight with moldova and another in defense of tajikistan and another in defense of Armenia. So if all Russia makes is just 2,000 armata tanks they will be unable to do any invasion anywhere even less fight a world war 3 ,while keeping tanks to defend its own nation. Ideally for peace of mind ,with 20,000 to 30,000 armata will be a force that could truly allow Russia to fight in many frontlines at the same where nukes cant be used and be unstopable . But 10,000 should work too but not for a world war 3 scenario.  Soviets required near 30,000 tanks to win in world war 2.. lets never forget that. this is not counting transportation and still their casualties were catastrophic in the dozens of millions. 2,000 tanks are only good against third world nations and minor conflicts. but definitively not enough to fight NATO major powers and well supplied for decades by Americans. Israel used 600 tanks against hezbolah when invaded lebanon and we all know the result. it was not enough to fight people that do not quit. for third world nations like afganistan.. soviets used  1,800 tanks, 80,000 soldiers and 2,000 AFVs. Armatas are very advanced and could for the first time allow Russia
to fight in wars with very little ,next to no casualties. but they need to be deployed in the dozens of thousands to fully cover a big powerful nation while avoiding many casualties.

All said.. for conventional warfare ,right now Russia army is very vulnerable to defend its nation interest *outside Russian borders* if the enemy is well armed by American weapons .Javelines missiles will disable those T-90 even the newer ones. .Why Russia needs Armata now and not in the year 2020 and in really big thousand numbers just in case will be forced to invade a NATO nation.

Every action causes reaction. IF Russia feels threatened by a major conventional war, more funds will be allocated to the military and as a result, armament production will increase.

What's thr purpose of having 10,000 Armata tanks in service? W Europe as a whole has fewer than 1,500 tanks. US has about 2,000 modern M1A2s and several thousand obsolete M1A1s and M1s. China has some 2,000 relatively modern tanks in service. Who else can threaten Russia? Potential war between Turkey and Russia will nto be waged by ground forces. It wil be waged in the air and sea.

par far wrote:What are the chances that Armata 14 will be tested in Syria? Not right now but say at the end of 2016.

Also can someone please shed light on the Urban version of the Armata 14.

I would say the possibility is as high as Obama or Erdogan taking some place amongst ranks of the NATO spearheads against Russia in WW3.

You do not give such a highly covered and hot topic as Syria some prototype tank as a prooving ground, that is the american way not the russian way nor the rest of the world. You test ammunition or some small infantry weapon plattforms and not major weapon plattforms that are not even out of the prototype phase and they won't be out of the prototype phase by 2016/17 and probably not by end of 2017. That would be a major blowback since all militaries and MIC around the world could gather to many information and data from such a to early deployment and develope solutions or tactics to what they consider having the right answer for.

Not sure if this was posted elsewhere but nice article.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ipT7Od8E6I

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Every action causes reaction. IF Russia feels threatened by a major conventional war, more funds will be allocated to the military and as a result, armament production will increase.

What's thr purpose of having 10,000 Armata tanks in service? W Europe as a whole has fewer than 1,500 tanks. US has about 2,000 modern M1A2s and several thousand obsolete M1A1s and M1s. China has some 2,000 relatively modern tanks in service. Who else can threaten Russia? Potential war between Turkey and Russia will nto be waged by ground forces. It wil be waged in the air and sea.

To go on the offensive if Russia is forced to invade another nation.
You didn't read any of what i told because i already explained why Russia needs so many.
Nuclear weapons alone are not enough , as i said , they cannot remove from power a crazy
leader who takes control of a powerful big country.

What will Russia do if a more crazy leadership takes control of a powerful nation and start providing nuclear weapons to Ukraine ,to Turkey ,to baltics etc.. ? then provide biological weapons to terrorist to attack Russians citizens and hundreds of thousands die?

What if Turkey blocks hormus strait to Russia and start attacking its base? ohh then Russia will nuke them.. but what if they dont care and continue with the war?   Russia needs from 12,000
to 30,000 arma tanks so they can wage big wars outside its borders in case their nation attacked. for the same reasons that Americans have near 1,200 military bases around the world.Because it will allow Russia to fight in many fronts at the same time with an army and not
leave any part of Russia unprotected.  With a huge number of modern tanks ,you can really do a lighting fast war , capture enemy capital fast , overwhelm its defenses and keep casualties very low if any.  And also crazy leaders like Erdogan and its fanatical supporters are not rational
and will not surrender and stop its aggression to Russia and its allies ,even if all their cities destroyed . So having a major tank modern force will allow Russia to invade any NATO power
very fast with next to no casualties if done right. So this is why the more tank the better since soldiers will be safer . And if the tanks are operated by control remote even better.  Is all about
having the capability to overwhelm any nation like Turkey or any other ,from all directions so fast ,that their capital is captured in just a few days ,less than a week.and the rest of the country in a month.  And Russia also  needs to prepare for the ultimate consequences like an invasion of USA too..Invading a nation is the only way you can really remove a crazy leader from power that fully controls it and have many loyal support.. Germany was not stopped until
Russian tanks drive over berlin. So History give me the reason,that  Russia needs to be prepared for a really crazy unthikable war where will be forced to invade Turkey or any other NATO power including USA. Naturally for that last one will need China help and many transport ships .Nukes cannot penetrate bunkers deep underground like the Americans knows how to build. So an invasion will be needed.  Russia will have never lost 20 million soldiers ,if they had at the start of the war 30,000 modern tanks very capable against the west.With US and allies capabilities to concentrate so many thousands of modern tanks and their near infinite supply of modern top attack missiles ,then This is why Russia needs so many tanks to really overwhelm the enemy in such a way that they cannot fight . That will save many lives and totally change the politics that created the conflict. Russian enemies will negotiate when they see Russian Tanks rolling freely over their capital.

Very nice to see that Russia is upgrading its Tank Army.

http://southfront.org/russia-defense-report-1st-guards-tank-army/

franco can we have an update on tank numbers per type?? thanks