The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

TR1 wrote:The hilarious things is, these guys all were raving about Putin before, and now because he wont get entangled in an idiotic and chaotic situation, he needs to be executed.

lol!

Thanks for that [very] analytical contribution to this thread. Changed my view on the whole situation profoundly!

A 'one liner' followed by an 'LOL'...a breath of fresh air in an otherwise dark and emotional thread...I mean it's not like people are dying over there that gets people here emotional, or anything.

Keep it classy TR1

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medo wrote:Here is the point. I think Poroshenko well know, that Ukraine and himself as president could not survive without east Ukraine and help from Russia and this is why he will negotiate with Russia and with Novorussia to find a path from the crisis. I agree with you, Poroshenko will be most probably overthrown before the year end, but not from Russia or seps, but from new US backed revolution in Maidan. After fall of Poroshenko you could expect full civil war there and than will be the right time for Russian military intervention.

I'd like to be as optimistic as you are on this.
Will let you know this - if things REALLY turnout that way, I'll send you a pack of Macedonian Rakija and Top quality wine.
And I mean it!
Personally, I hold a more pessimistic view on how things will end.

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sepheronx wrote:

Yeah right, that's wishful thinking.  Are you trying to kid us, or just yourself?  Because that is outright laughable assumption.  Poroshenko will do whatever it takes to get back his 'lost' territory and he will get backing and funding from US in order to stay as their lapdog.  Already Biden donated $50 M to Poroshenko for 'winning' elections.  Apparently that is considered appropriate (gee, I just do not know how this isn't considered conflict of interest) while he puts his son in as a CEO of a major Ukrainian Gas company.  Medo, Poroshenko is the US puppet, and there won't be another maiden because this is the guy they wanted in power.  He is now threatening to try and "take back" Crimea.  Only way he can do that is through war, and we know that Ukraine has no military capabilities to stand up to Russia.  Only US, and if that is the case, then US will attempt to seize it.

Putin showed his complete idiocy and weakness regarding Ukraine.  If you can do it once, you can do it again.  He will show it again if US attacks Crimea and kills people and Russia wont do a thing.  Why? Because Putin is a cowered and should be overthrown himself and a real leader should step in.

I think Russia's greatness is now at an end.  Simply put, too many westerners in that country pushing their agenda.  It just seems so odd that Russia is rarely responding to sanctions and threats.  I bet it is because Oligarches in Russia are putting pressure on Putin not to do anything as they are the ones ruling the country now it seems.  Not Putin.  They should all be hanged.

Although we agree on many points, we disagree on attacking another member for offering his opinion. He didn't just drop a one liner, nor was he trolling, the man offered his opinion. No need to attack him for his optimism.
Just a friendly note here, no offense intended.

I used to like Putin, but after this, I am disappointed.

What TR1 likes to ignore is the blatant use of his and mine government (his is US obviously, since he lives there) of anything to get into power in Ukraine. He also ignores the fact they been doing this for so long too. Guess he would be happy if Russia is next?

sepheronx wrote:I used to like Putin, but after this, I am disappointed.

What TR1 likes to ignore is the blatant use of his and mine government (his is US obviously, since he lives there) of anything to get into power in Ukraine.  He also ignores the fact they been doing this for so long too.  Guess he would be happy if Russia is next?

50 millions dude.. thats NOTHING!!! that will not allow to pay the food and salaries of 20,000 soldiers in one month. Ukraine need 35 $ Billions dollars.
To fix their economy and the IMF only gave $15 Billions but under the condition they get all Ukraine back.  So ukraine is operating with deficit .and they do not have Gas for winter.. So Ukraine needs like $3.5 for Russian Debt +another $2 billions for Winter Gas. US cannot maintain Ukraine for long ,Neither the EU wants.  IF Putin play the cards right.. you will have the american tax payers.. maintaining Ukraine
economy and helping Russia economy by paying Ukraine debts with Russia in Gas.

Look at all the negative consequences for Russia invading Ukraine..
1)Will put at risk the life of ethnic Russians in other cities, Right sector could retaliate and start an ethnic cleaning of Russian
in Central Ukraine and burning their properties.
2)Damage to Russia economy..Russian economy will enter recession maintaining 40k tanks and airforce soldiers in Ukraine
3)They could end being forced to invade all the way to kiev and fighting civilians pro EU..
4)Russian soldiers casualties could be high if NATO start to fight in the side of Ukraine (as already they doing) undercover
but now using civilians as human shield
5)False flags attacks .. NATO could bomb civilians in other cities and blame Russia Airforce for the attacks.
6)IF Russia invade Ukraine , NATO (Turkey ,Jordan ,Israel) can invade SYRIA.
7)Million Unrest in Russian cities.. demanding the end of the war.. while Russian economy sinks..
8)As soon Russia Army control Donetsk and Lugansk wouldnt other cities rebel as well? and say me too ,we want to join Russia?
9)Russia economy cannot handle annexing Ukraine and if they do things outside UN ,the EU will not recognize Novorossiya republic.
and it will be another Abkhazia.. and failed economy independent state that Russia needs to finance 75% of their economy to an independent Nation.
10)Many civilians casualties far more that the ones we have now.

So many negative consequences for what? to save civilians? yes civilians will be saved but only in the cities they invade. thats the point
that Russia will have to invade ALL ukraine all the way to Kiev to save Pro Russian civilians and will end fighting civilians Pro EU too.
So there is a high probability ,that Russia invading will end in fueling more violence courtesy of NATO CIA hidden hands attacking both sides.

Or Putin can simply do things undercover ,and smuggle a couple of hundred of Russians Special forces well armed with manpads
and rocket grenades but also arm the Rebels too and supply logistics and relax and wait the Ukraine economy to collapse while trying
to retake 2 cities.

I think Russia should invade under a extreme scenario ,that a major genocide start. but all that have to be fully documented so the world
see Russia invasion is purely humanitarian and nothing else.. For now Russia should keep things as low level as possible ,just helping with weapons and logistic.Public opinion is everything. Assad Defeated NATO and won the syria war thanks to public opinion. since allowed 90% of the civilians but also Syrian army to remain on the side of the Government . As it is now ,THe Ukraine army unity is in shambles.. if Russia invade too early,without public opinion from Ukraine side ,it could end helping kiev to maintain unity something they now don't have. So Russia could end helping kiev ,invading without having full public support from Ukrainian citizens. In Crimea notice the difference public support can make. Russia took crimea wihout firing a single shot.  Once Ukrainians notice how much better is the quality of life in Crimea ,everyone with a job ,new infrastructure ,the Ukrainian army who defected with shiny new modern equipment ,it will make reconsider the ukrainian army the idea of defecting and joining Russian side. Whatever it happens TIme is on the side of Russia and the more time pass ,the more closer Ukraine economy will collapse. They cannot handle an army fighting for 1 year. They will start selling their tanks and defect or simply join the Donetsk republic side. The best thing Russia can do now ..is raise Awareness not only in Ukraine but also in the world of what the Ukraine army its most radical elements are doing. To send aside of weapons ,hundreds of cameras , so that civilians can fully document the indiscriminately shelling on civilians in cities. That will significantly create divisions in the Ukraine citizens that support kiev and the army.

You guys understand that almost the Entire east is not working,especially after their water supply has been shut down, they shut down radio stations there because they were also getting russian frequencies (which was the main source of their political interest), every company that was working and rellying on Russia was stormed by Neonazis and banned by the nazi government, People don't work after they are genocided by the nazis who have been fooled to believe they are ukrainians and all of this has shrinked Ukrainians state budget to ZERO, let pass 2 month more and even those in West ukraine will start more and more feeling it and till those pro EU retards in the West experience the truth.

Let the bad soup cooked by US boil little bit more until it wents bad.

Some serious shelling going on in slavyansk today

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God  save USA


How lower. They can fall the poor maidanies..

US sending kevlar, night vision equipment, comm equipment to Ukrainian army. Guess they are supporting the shelling outright. Putin should support the separatists with same gear.

sepheronx wrote:US sending kevlar, night vision equipment, comm equipment to Ukrainian army.  Guess they are supporting the shelling outright.

Yet THEY are the ones putting sanctions on Russia for 'instigating civil war'. Any further comment on US hypocrisy would be redundant. Their 'democracy spreading' ends with MILLIONS of civilians killed, yet they ALWAYS claim the high moral ground. The blood of the victims is both on their politicians/soldiers BUT ALSO ON THOSE 'PATRIOTS' supporting them!

sepheronx wrote:Putin should support the separatists with same gear.

Oh, you wish for that to happen too? Well, tough luck!
Don't you know Russia wants to be seen as a 'partner' by its 'western partners'?! Also as a civil country that 'plays by the rules'?! (even to its own detriment)
Nevermind that said rules are often changed during the game by the 'western partners' and Russia's moves that were completely legal at the beginning of the game are dubbed 'invalid' in the middle of it...yet Russia keeps being a good little teddy bear, and accepts the 'new' rules of the rigged game as if they were there from the start...

I say to Russians: You want to be perceived as a civil European nation by the west?
Just bring Yeltsin back and be done with it!

macedonian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:US sending kevlar, night vision equipment, comm equipment to Ukrainian army. Guess they are supporting the shelling outright.

Yet THEY are the ones putting sanctions on Russia for 'instigating civil war'. Any further comment on US hypocrisy would be redundant. Their 'democracy spreading' ends with MILLIONS of civilians killed, yet they ALWAYS claim the high moral ground. The blood of the victims is both on their politicians/soldiers BUT ALSO ON THOSE 'PATRIOTS' supporting them!

sepheronx wrote:Putin should support the separatists with same gear.

Oh, you wish for that to happen too? Well, tough luck!
Don't you know Russia wants to be seen as a 'partner' by its 'western partners'?! Also as a civil country that 'plays by the rules'?! (even to its own detriment)
Nevermind that said rules are often changed during the game by the 'western partners' and Russia's moves that were completely legal at the beginning of the game are dubbed 'invalid' in the middle of it...yet Russia keeps being a good little teddy bear, and accepts the 'new' rules of the rigged game as if they were there from the start...

I say to Russians: You want to be perceived as a civil European nation by the west?
Just bring Yeltsin back and be done with it!

Yeltsin.. Yes
For this. Policy. Was. The. Best gey


The following photo includes images of several dead bodies and if you don't want to see these dead bodies do not click on the link:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l3vdnJnJxXo/U4XxCqJ7NdI/AAAAAAAAHH0/y58Yy6gevIk/s1600/save+donbass2.jpg

We only talked about this a short while back, I hope my adaptation of the original is a good indicator of what I expect. GarryB

As a matter of fact, I'll be using that last statement as a signature, to keep reminding people that the ONLY way that Russia/Russians will be perceived as Equals/Europeans/Civil is if they are another colony of the west.

The shame does not go to poroshenko..he was voted for. This
Goes to Russian administration.!!

Next. Time. In the. Parade 9th of may. Call these people to attend..and admire the shiny weapons of the Russian army. Likely suitable for parades

arpakola wrote:The shame does not go poroshenko..he was voted for. This
Goes to Russian administration.!!

No, no - you don't understand...listen to the voice of reason...Russia always does reasonable things...that's why Americans lose 400k while rational Russians lose a mere 20 Million...see - RATIONAL! (besides, there were rumors of pressure on France not to invite the Russians at the "D Day" celebrations. See how appreciated Russia's sacrifices are?!)
America is now allied to MOST Slavic nations...see - RATIONAL!
America is now the sponsor of a nation where 80% of the populations speaks Russian AGAINST Russia...see - RATIONAL!

You just don't understand the definition of "Rational" in Russian, see...

macedonian wrote:

arpakola wrote:The shame does not go poroshenko..he was voted for. This
Goes to Russian administration.!!

No, no - you don't understand...listen to the voice of reason...Russia always does reasonable things...that's why Americans lose 400k while rational Russians lose a mere 20 Million...see - RATIONAL! (besides, there were rumors of pressure on France not to invite the Russians at the "D Day" celebrations. See how appreciated Russia's sacrifices are?!)
America is now allied to MOST Slavic nations...see - RATIONAL!
America is now the sponsor of a nation where 80% of the populations speaks Russian AGAINST Russia...see - RATIONAL!

You just don't understand the definition of "Rational" in Russian, see...

You guys went now completley nuts, you sound exactly like those 14 year old Americunt fanboys who are just butthurt and mumbling out of your arses.

Werewolf wrote:

macedonian wrote:

arpakola wrote:The shame does not go poroshenko..he was voted for. This
Goes to Russian administration.!!

No, no - you don't understand...listen to the voice of reason...Russia always does reasonable things...that's why Americans lose 400k while rational Russians lose a mere 20 Million...see - RATIONAL! (besides, there were rumors of pressure on France not to invite the Russians at the "D Day" celebrations. See how appreciated Russia's sacrifices are?!)
America is now allied to MOST Slavic nations...see - RATIONAL!
America is now the sponsor of a nation where 80% of the populations speaks Russian AGAINST Russia...see - RATIONAL!

You just don't understand the definition of "Rational" in Russian, see...

You guys went now completley nuts, you sound exactly like those 14 year old Americunt fanboys who are just butthurt and mumbling out of your arses.

Or those that read history extensively, and are aware of the similarities of the current situation with those in Russia's past.

Besides, what part of my statement would you care to say isn't exactly true? The part that many (if not ALL) Slavic nations are allied with America, or that Ukraine today is sponsored by America against Russia?

macedonian wrote:

arpakola wrote:The shame does not go poroshenko..he was voted for. This
Goes to Russian administration.!!

No, no - you don't understand...listen to the voice of reason...Russia always does reasonable things...that's why Americans lose 400k while rational Russians lose a mere 20 Million...see - RATIONAL! (besides, there were rumors of pressure on France not to invite the Russians at the "D Day" celebrations. See how appreciated Russia's sacrifices are?!)
America is now allied to MOST Slavic nations...see - RATIONAL!
America is now the sponsor of a nation where 80% of the populations speaks Russian AGAINST Russia...see - RATIONAL!

You just don't understand the definition of "Rational" in Russian, see...

   I feel you bro. My anger is through the roof most days too.

Have trust and faith, Russia has the upper hand and is also winning hearts and minds. If they acted like Americans they wouldn't be Russians right? lol  

Russia is in war with US empire and they have to focus on destroying US empire. Ukraine is a US trap to catch Russia in bloody war and make it weaker for easier western attack on Russia. Russia and China have to destroy US empire first, than all other small players will be quickly pacified. To win a war, you need a cool head and good strategy.

Russia always does reasonable things...that's why Americans lose 400k while rational Russians lose a mere 20 Million...see - RATIONAL! (besides, there were rumors of pressure on France not to invite the Russians at the "D Day" celebrations. See how appreciated Russia's sacrifices are?!)
America is now allied to MOST Slavic nations...see - RATIONAL!
America is now the sponsor of a nation where 80% of the populations speaks Russian AGAINST Russia...see - RATIONAL!

This entire part is total BS, maybe keep your emotions on leash and more productive, anger makes people dim.

George1000cy wrote:
I feel you bro. My anger is through the roof most days too.

Have trust and faith, Russia has the upper hand and is also winning hearts and minds. If they acted like Americans they wouldn't be Russians right? lol

Oh, I do...but doubts do get the best of me at times.
Thanks for the encouragement though! Much appreciated!

medo wrote:Russia is in war with US empire and they have to focus on destroying US empire. Ukraine is a US trap to catch Russia in bloody war and make it weaker for easier western attack on Russia. Russia and China have to destroy US empire first, than all other small players will be quickly pacified. To win a war, you need a cool head and good strategy.

Medo, you make my day with your posts. As I told you once, expect a Macedonian Rakija and the very best Vino if things really go that way.

Werewolf wrote:

Russia always does reasonable things...that's why Americans lose 400k while rational Russians lose a mere 20 Million...see - RATIONAL! (besides, there were rumors of pressure on France not to invite the Russians at the "D Day" celebrations. See how appreciated Russia's sacrifices are?!)
America is now allied to MOST Slavic nations...see - RATIONAL!
America is now the sponsor of a nation where 80% of the populations speaks Russian AGAINST Russia...see - RATIONAL!

This entire part is total BS, maybe keep your emotions on leash and more productive, anger makes people dim.

Though my emotions tend to run high at the moment (not surprising given how things stand on the ground in Ukraine), PLEASE elaborate on: what exactly is 'BS' in that post?! Indulge me. Please.
So that we can see the difference between your rational thinking, and my purely emotional one.

I hope people understand, that you could win war only with cool head and good strategy. When you start start acting by your emotions, you lost it. This trap in Ukraine could be compared with the trap placed by Reinhard Heydrich, in which Stalin bite emotionally and beheaded his own Red army and this cost USSR 30 million people.

medo wrote:I hope people understand, that you could win war only with cool head and good strategy. When you start start acting by your emotions, you lost it. This trap in Ukraine could be compared with the trap placed by Reinhard Heydrich, in which Stalin bite emotionally and beheaded his own Red army and this cost USSR 30 million people.

Exactly.
But it's also important to be positive in order to win (wars, sports, whatever).

Another thing that is strategically important is not only acting rationally, but acting AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. Often wars were lost because of poor leadership and not enough courage to act...or were won but with great expense. The way Stalin acted in WWII is a great example for this. He TRUSTED Hitler will follow THE RULES...That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

THis is one of the major reasons Russia foreign policy is very limited at times..  It does'nt real friends.

Belarus Lukashenko is saying that Ukraine should kill all Separatist.. with friends like that who need enemies?



Russia is now in a position that if invade Ukraine to defend civilians , his relations with Belarus could totally break..
and might even lose Belarus as an ally and they seek to join NATO too.. lol

I don't really trust in that President.. he could Betray Russia overnight . Are all politicians in Belarus have the same opinion of Lukashenko
about the Ukraine war? Or if there any other competition in Belarus that have a closer stance with Russia?

macedonian wrote:

medo wrote:I hope people understand, that you could win war only with cool head and good strategy. When you start start acting by your emotions, you lost it. This trap in Ukraine could be compared with the trap placed by Reinhard Heydrich, in which Stalin bite emotionally and beheaded his own Red army and this cost USSR 30 million people.

Exactly.
But it's also important to be positive in order to win (wars, sports, whatever).

Another thing that is strategically important is not only acting rationally, but acting AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. Often wars were lost because of poor leadership and not enough courage to act...or were won but with great expense. The way Stalin acted in WWII is a great example for this. He TRUSTED Hitler will follow THE RULES...That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

ACTING AT THE RIGHT MOMENT is what make the difference between military genius and average military leader.

medo wrote:

macedonian wrote:

medo wrote:I hope people understand, that you could win war only with cool head and good strategy. When you start start acting by your emotions, you lost it. This trap in Ukraine could be compared with the trap placed by Reinhard Heydrich, in which Stalin bite emotionally and beheaded his own Red army and this cost USSR 30 million people.

Exactly.
But it's also important to be positive in order to win (wars, sports, whatever).

Another thing that is strategically important is not only acting rationally, but acting AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. Often wars were lost because of poor leadership and not enough courage to act...or were won but with great expense. The way Stalin acted in WWII is a great example for this. He TRUSTED Hitler will follow THE RULES...That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

ACTING AT THE RIGHT MOMENT is what make the difference between military genius and average military leader.

Glad we agree on that.

And another thing regarding strategy: I would prefer an exceptional leader that makes the right decisions with limited/outdated weapons, to a poor leader that has all the imaginable means at his disposal! Strategy wins wars - not superior weapons. Proven throughout history.

Vann7 wrote:THis is one of the major reasons Russia foreign policy is very limited at times..  It does'nt real friends.

Belarus Lukashenko is saying that Ukraine should kill all Separatist.. with friends like that who need enemies?



Russia is now in a position that if invade Ukraine to defend civilians , his relations with Belarus could totally break..
and might even lose Belarus as an ally and they seek to join NATO too.. lol

I don't really trust in that President.. he could Betray Russia overnight . Are all politicians in Belarus have the same opinion of Lukashenko
about the Ukraine war?  Or if there any other competition in Belarus that have a closer stance with Russia?

Lukashenko is north to the idiots in Western Ukraine, so he would have more to fear from any outcome than Russia. So his position is that if he keeps friendly to Ukraine, then he will not have to deal with too much crap. Although, I think he is a pussy for this.

And regarding strategy... Well, US is so far winning, because they are funding and supplying the enemies, which makes them gain root. In this case, Russia sitting around with a thumb up their ass, all the while taking the blame for it all, is not a good strategy at all.

I don't really get what's up with Lukas. Idiots in Poland are calling him (as well as Yanukovytch) Putin's agent. For me, he is just at least opportunist - at worst case a backstabber who for the first plays it friendly to just in next turn became a hostile.

Novorussia would have much more in common with Belarus than with Ukraine and Russia - combined! So I really don't get his drift. May be he is just Russia's tacti-cool? Some sort of strategy no one can understand. Informational war at it's finest or Russia's policy failure? Neverthless I believe everything will sort out somehow and traitors will be downed!