The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

macedonian wrote:Attack on the Embassy ongoing...
Russian Foreign Ministry issued this statement:

Ru MFA wrote:MOSCOW, June 14, 22:19 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia has expressed indignation with provocative actions at the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.
“Russia demanded Ukraine take necessary measures for ensuring security of Russian diplomats in Kiev,” the ministry says.
The ministry has placed a link to the live events at the Russian Embassy in Ukraine on the Facebook page.

“See and remember the so-called European values,” the ministry says.

I like that red part. Nice way to troll the Ukrainians/Americans and especially the 'Europeans' and their (often variable) 'values'.
 

Airbornewolf wrote:

macedonian wrote:Attack on the Embassy ongoing...
Russian Foreign Ministry issued this statement:

Ru MFA wrote:MOSCOW, June 14, 22:19 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia has expressed indignation with provocative actions at the Russian Embassy in Kiev, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.
“Russia demanded Ukraine take necessary measures for ensuring security of Russian diplomats in Kiev,” the ministry says.
The ministry has placed a link to the live events at the Russian Embassy in Ukraine on the Facebook page.

“See and remember the so-called European values,” the ministry says.

I like that red part. Nice way to troll the Ukrainians/Americans and especially the 'Europeans' and their (often variable) 'values'.
 

i agree fully with that quote, i am a western european, wether i like it or not. but all i can say i find this and the rest of what is going on ukraine just sickening, the western stench of hypocricy going trough the roof and beyond. and not a single word of what is going on now at the embassy's in the western Media's as usual.  

at moments where its just so obvious where the West is willing to embrace such vile ideologies of hate, violence and genocide just because it suits their geo-political strategy's and where world war 2 was fought over for crying out loud.... i honestly feel ashamed to all the people that died in WW2. the EU got its freedom paid in blood of others....so those "heroic sacrifices" could be sold out barely 60 years later.

and i really do not say this because im on this forum and take a "negative West" view for community sakes. if there is something i believe thats wrong and (perhaps) not to the liking of the general opinion i speak my mind too. in a respectable way of course but i do speak out. i try to be just a straight to the point i can be to what i think.

often i thought about what i could do, but thats how i ended up in the millitary in the first place. i always firmly believed i could bring "peace and security" by way of being the best i could be in the millitary. i was a 15 year old naive dumbass that tried to make a difference in the world, that tought was pretty much fast broken appart when i saw "we" NATO where not in Afghanistan for the people but for Political benefits of politicians and America's dirty geo-politics. 2 months into Afghanistan and getting a direct order from your goverment to abandon a town to its fate of a reprisal attack of the Taliban was just the start of hating the weasel politicians and my first taste of what the U.S foreign policy both millitary and political really is beyond the western propaganda.

whining about it does not accomplish anything either, but the feeling of "injustice" i guess just keeps burning. im 28 now and i got a fammily to maintain with three dogs so i cant run off to any conflictzone either anymore. its just not fighting to possible contribute, i was more thinking to contribute then in medical training, tactical combat training, improvised anti-armour warfare and so there are several other things i could come up with. if NATO deploy's killers against the russian-speaking eastern ukraine at least one NATO killer could help the east ukraine i figured. on one side i feel i do not belong there in someone's country as a "foreign fighter". on the other side i feel it does not matter much when americans are killing there ukrainian people "on contract" for Nazi kiev already. in the end tough i cant walk away for my responsibility's here at home now.  im sure it goes for others here on the forum too that now have responsibility's lying at home.

it ends up i guess with war being brutal, and its never easy to be powerless watching at the front-row seat of internet about injustice being done to people. but in the end the worst suffering are the people going trough it.losing loved ones, their houses and possesions, living in uncertainty of getting their next meal or if a bullet or bomb hits them. and thinking themselves how the rest of the world can look on while eating their dinner at the T.V. say. "oh thats terrible" and 5 minutes later forget about them because they discuss the latest episode of Jersey shore or Miley cyrus twerking on MTV.

i keep voting for anti-eu party's and sign every protest inquiry against the E.U policy i can and bringing my point of view up in discussion when Ukraine/Russia comes up in the conversation and argument about the "insanity" of what the west is doing. these are NOT my morals and value's what is being done in the name of "the West"  but i cant see i cant do much about it more except going there to ukraine and that is not an option now.

sorry for the mostly personal rant, just my point of view on this matter.

Vann7 wrote:On another note.. its seems to me.. that the Ukrainian Military Plane was a false flag operation ,was either empty ,remote controlled
or with prisoners acting as soldiers ,and its crew was forced to intentionally flew over the Rebels Airspace so it could be shot down.

arpakola wrote:US to attack Russia in 2015. Evgeny Fedorov

Vann7 wrote:

Im really wondering whats really US plans with Ukraine.. by trying to lure Russia inside. Yes it could be to give them another afgan war ,
but if Russia invade ,you will see how all cities Pro Russian people from south to east of Ukraine from Odessa to Kharkiv will Rebel ,in order to get the Russian army inside their cities and liberate them from the Nazis in Kiev.. SO ukraine could end losing its nation totally because theres many pro russian supporters. You only had to see how the CIA sponsored AMERICAN popular online media.. like VICE.. Simon the so called journalist , made sure in one chapter of their reports ,that everyone was fully aware ,that Right Sector is now leading the operations
in Easter Ukraine and interviewing them.

Why i think that if Russia plans to invade Ukraine ,they should first ,send a couple of thousands well armed undercover special forces..
Volunteers, if possible Afgan war Veterans ,simply because of the cost will be much cheaper and if necessary later with its real Army and tanks.

Cyberspec wrote:

Vann7 wrote:On another note.. its seems to me.. that the Ukrainian Military Plane was a false flag operation ,was either empty ,remote controlled
or with prisoners acting as soldiers ,and its crew was forced to intentionally flew over the Rebels Airspace so it could be shot down.

Unless they can break the siege, it's the only way to supply their garrison at the airport. They were landing planes there previously but the LNR declared a "no fly zone" 2-3 days ago and said they would fire on aircraft attempting to land there...they ignored the warning.


Interestingly, lokks like there were some Lithuanian and Polish mercenaries on board. The pic below was reportedly taken just before take off.




The shot down Il-76 being loaded up




On the Ru-net there's speculation that the lost Il-76 was the one that was recently overhauled. The other 5 that Ukr-AF has are said to be old, not maintained and might not be airworthy

.

Firebird wrote:People talk about "provoking Russia to invade". BUT, there has to be some "red line".
When Russia HAS to intervene.

Cyberspec wrote:

Firebird wrote:People talk about "provoking Russia to invade". BUT, there has to be some "red line".
When Russia HAS to intervene.

Russia doesn't HAVE TO intervene directly, but it has to make sure the Novorosija forces become strong enough to force a settlement on their terms.

Viktor wrote:Nice   

URGENT. Militia released Lugansk airport

ITAR-TASS wrote:KIEV, June 15. /ITAR-TASS/. Gas talks at the Ministry of Coal Industry in Kiev on Saturday continued well into the night, ending at about 3 am Moscow time on Sunday without any result achieved, Russian Gazprom gas giant spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov told Tass.
The new date of the talks was not fixed, he added. Earlier reports said talks in Kiev ended at midnight and were to be continued on Sunday.
The deadline for Gazprom switching over to advance payment is 10:00 Moscow time June 16, when Gazprom should see 1.950 billion U.S. dollars from Naftogaz of Ukraine on its accounts as debt payment for November-December 2013 and April-May 2014.

The Lack of Major Wars May Be Hurting Economic Growth

The continuing slowness of economic growth in high-income economies has prompted soul-searching among economists. They have looked to weak demand, rising inequality, Chinese competition, over-regulation, inadequate infrastructure and an exhaustion of new technological ideas as possible culprits.

An additional explanation of slow growth is now receiving attention, however. It is the persistence and expectation of peace.

The world just hasn’t had that much warfare lately, at least not by historical standards. Some of the recent headlines about Iraq or South Sudan make our world sound like a very bloody place, but today’s casualties pale in light of the tens of millions of people killed in the two world wars in the first half of the 20th century. Even the Vietnam War had many more deaths than any recent war involving an affluent country.

Counterintuitive though it may sound, the greater peacefulness of the world may make the attainment of higher rates of economic growth less urgent and thus less likely. This view does not claim that fighting wars improves economies, as of course the actual conflict brings death and destruction. The claim is also distinct from the Keynesian argument that preparing for war lifts government spending and puts people to work. Rather, the very possibility of war focuses the attention of governments on getting some basic decisions right — whether investing in science or simply liberalizing the economy. Such focus ends up improving a nation’s longer-run prospects.

It may seem repugnant to find a positive side to war in this regard, but a look at American history suggests we cannot dismiss the idea so easily. Fundamental innovations such as nuclear power, the computer and the modern aircraft were all pushed along by an American government eager to defeat the Axis powers or, later, to win the Cold War. The Internet was initially designed to help this country withstand a nuclear exchange, and Silicon Valley had its origins with military contracting, not today’s entrepreneurial social media start-ups. The Soviet launch of the Sputnik satellite spurred American interest in science and technology, to the benefit of later economic growth.

War brings an urgency that governments otherwise fail to summon. For instance, the Manhattan Project took six years to produce a working atomic bomb, starting from virtually nothing, and at its peak consumed 0.4 percent of American economic output. It is hard to imagine a comparably speedy and decisive achievement these days.

As a teenager in the 1970s, I heard talk about the desirability of rebuilding the Tappan Zee Bridge. Now, a replacement is scheduled to open no earlier than 2017, at least — provided that concerns about an endangered sturgeon can be addressed. Kennedy Airport remains dysfunctional, and La Guardia is hardly cutting edge, hobbling air transit in and out of New York. The $800 billion stimulus bill, in response to the recession, has not changed this basic situation.

Today the major slow-growing Western European nations have very little fear of being taken over militarily, and thus their politicians don’t face extreme penalties for continuing stagnation. Instead, losing office often means a boost in income from speaking or consulting fees or a comfortable retirement in a pleasant vacation spot. Japan, by comparison, is faced with territorial and geopolitical pressures from China, and in response it is attempting a national revitalization through the economic policies of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

Ian Morris, a professor of classics and history at Stanford, has revived the hypothesis that war is a significant factor behind economic growth in his recent book, “War! What Is it Good For? Conflict and the Progress of Civilization From Primates to Robots.” Morris considers a wide variety of cases, including the Roman Empire, the European state during its Renaissance rise and the contemporary United States. In each case there is good evidence that the desire to prepare for war spurred technological invention and also brought a higher degree of internal social order.

Another new book, Kwasi Kwarteng’s “War and Gold: A 500-Year History of Empires, Adventures, and Debt,” makes a similar argument but focuses on capital markets. Mr. Kwarteng, a Conservative member of British Parliament, argues that the need to finance wars led governments to help develop monetary and financial institutions, enabling the rise of the West. He does worry, however, that today many governments are abusing these institutions and using them to take on too much debt. (Both Mr. Kwarteng and Mr. Morris are extending themes from Azar Gat’s 820-page magnum opus, “War in Human Civilization,” published in 2006.)

Yet another investigation of the hypothesis appears in a recent working paper by the economists Chiu Yu Ko, Mark Koyama and Tuan-Hwee Sng. The paper argues that Europe evolved as more politically fragmented than China because China's risk of conquest from its western flank led it toward political centralization for purposes of defense. This centralization was useful at first but eventually held China back. The European countries invested more in technology and modernization, precisely because they were afraid of being taken over by their nearby rivals.

But here is the catch: Whatever the economic benefits of potential conflict might have been, the calculus is different today. Technologies have become much more destructive, and so a large-scale war would be a bigger disaster than before. That makes many wars less likely, which is a good thing, but it also makes economic stagnation easier to countenance.

CONTINUE READING THE MAIN STORY
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COMMENTS
There is a more optimistic read to all this than may first appear. Arguably the contemporary world is trading some growth in material living standards for peace — a relative paucity of war deaths and injuries, even with a kind of associated laziness.

We can prefer higher rates of economic growth and progress, even while recognizing that recent G.D.P. figures do not adequately measure all of the gains we have been enjoying. In addition to more peace, we also have a cleaner environment (along most but not all dimensions), more leisure time and a higher degree of social tolerance for minorities and formerly persecuted groups. Our more peaceful and — yes — more slacker-oriented world is in fact better than our economic measures acknowledge.

Living in a largely peaceful world with 2 percent G.D.P. growth has some big advantages that you don’t get with 4 percent growth and many more war deaths. Economic stasis may not feel very impressive, but it’s something our ancestors never quite managed to pull off. The real questions are whether we can do any better, and whether the recent prevalence of peace is a mere temporary bubble just waiting to be burst.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/upshot/the-lack-of-major-wars-may-be-hurting-economic-growth.html

Vann7 wrote:Lukashenko silence about the attack in Russia embassy surprising? Does he still support the Ukraine Nazi junta?
I bet he saw nothing wrong about their Nazis friends.. attacking the Russian embassy.after all he called for the killing of all separatist.. LOL
I will not be surprised if Lukashenko send mercenaries ,special forces spetnaz from Belarus to help the Ukraine nazi Army to kill
Russians. he is truly disconnected from reality and Russia needs to be careful about him .