flamming_python wrote:Can you enlighten us about the drone affair?
It brings to mind a very vague memory but I wasn't aware there was any distrust of Israeli weaponry (other than that Israel refused to sell certain weapons to Georgia following the August war for fear of upsetting Russia)
In short there was this leak of information that Israel had supposedly selled Russia the codes for the Georgian Hermes drones before the August war in exchange of information about Iran or abort of S-300 delivery. First it was all shrugged off as made up nonsense, hot air. But the topic repeatedly came up even under the new goverment former Defence Ministers. It was neither ever confirmed nor denied, the tone of distrust was clearly set. Fact is, when Georgia started producing it's own drones, "reliability" was menionted in context with "imported stuff" and it was not about technical specifications.
Israelis refused numerous deals prior to the war, the mass delivery of Tavors for the military in 2003-2004, selling Merkava tanks in 2005 etc. Drone purchase has been ceased and no more expensive defence equipment. Latter because shamefuly enormous summs were thrown down the drain for a handfull of heavily overpriced AA Systems - Israeli equipment is way to expensive. For the price of 1 Spyder system we could buy 4 Pantsirs .... we allready got enough problems buying a sufficient amount of small arms from them.
max steel wrote:Russia selling S-300 secret info to israel ? Cant happen . Russia will never sabotage its reknown defense systems . Maybe a rumor .
Export S-300 have been known to Big Iz for a decade at least. Israel's reinforced demands to hold trainings with Greece and Cyprus were there for that. Belarus sold some units to the West through Turkey. Ok those were 300V's dating from Mathusalem, but still sold with Russian agreement since Russia replaced the batteries with fresh 300V's.
Nevermind the Koreans who were helped (and still are) with their own SAM system by Russia. The Croatian Fiasco that saw a whole Battery disappear (with rumors ranging from an Iran Sale to an US sale- Fuck you Ukraine).
So "Russia" has had plenty of secrecy issues itself.
KoTeMoRe wrote:The "knife" is a common NATO tactical feature. You roll on a garrote-type wire laid accross the road until it is stuck on your sharp edge/hook and it snaps from pressure. Garrote-wires are simple and easy ways to take out roof gunner nowadays that top down vehicles have become a rarity.
Then
Some decades later...
What I don't get though is why go with the more expensive F-type rolling train while Georgia is good terms with Israel and could have had the IAI RAM underpinings. Especially since they have experience with the BRDM.
Interesting. I was aware that garrot-type wires were often used to decapitate Willy's crews and even tank crews but didn't know about these wire cutters.
Cute little feature. You'd think such tactics are obsolete nowdays eh.
They wouldn't have chosen a particular type of chassy, be it F-type or whatever, if it wasn't exactly what they wanted, a suitable and proven platform. So far the Didgori could only impress, be it on local terrain or somewhere in the Arabian Desert, driving 800km through hot sand without issues and recovering a broken down US counterpart on the way. They also just aquire the chassies not the full product.
After the drone affair and other controversies Georgia has become very cautious with purchising Israeli equipment. It's only limited to small arms nowdays, despite having no kind of imposed limiations in effect. If anything, Georgia will now aquire equipment from Western Europe, probably France. At least the new MOD stated she would sign the agreement very soon.
Just a little point here. While sensitive systems like drones are, of course, problematic, Technical solutions like rolling trains shouldn't be any problem. There's little to go wrong with the RAM for what Georgia wants to do with it. And Big IZ has issues selling it, thus big discount.
The F-type chassis are shitty, their only advantage is the fact that you can have them for dual use and DIY modify them as they're a commercial model, thus buying them when ever. But for that price (roughly 3.5K for train and about 3K USD for engine) the RAM comes complete with the only extra being weapon integration and armouring. Plus SKD kits need to be shipped from Ze US of A. moar pricey. Now if this is part of an US military aid package, then all my points are moot.
flamming_python wrote:Can you enlighten us about the drone affair?
It brings to mind a very vague memory but I wasn't aware there was any distrust of Israeli weaponry (other than that Israel refused to sell certain weapons to Georgia following the August war for fear of upsetting Russia)
In short there was this leak of information that Israel had supposedly selled Russia the codes for the Georgian Hermes drones before the August war in exchange of information about Iran or abort of S-300 delivery. First it was all shrugged off as made up nonsense, hot air. But the topic repeatedly came up even under the new goverment former Defence Ministers. It was neither ever confirmed nor denied, the tone of distrust was clearly set. Fact is, when Georgia started producing it's own drones, "reliability" was menionted in context with "imported stuff" and it was not about technical specifications.
Israelis refused numerous deals prior to the war, the mass delivery of Tavors for the military in 2003-2004, selling Merkava tanks in 2005 etc. Drone purchase has been ceased and no more expensive defence equipment. Latter because shamefuly enormous summs were thrown down the drain for a handfull of heavily overpriced AA Systems - Israeli equipment is way to expensive. For the price of 1 Spyder system we could buy 4 Pantsirs .... we allready got enough problems buying a sufficient amount of small arms from them.
That sounds like balloney; Georgia was a negligible military threat to Russia and before the outbreak of hostilities, war wasn't even thought of as all that likely, albeit possible. And the drones were only one small part of the Georgian military; one that Russia wouldn't have been worried about as it was guaranteed air superiority from day 1.
I heard this rumour before. If I remember correctly it was about Russia giving Israel access codes or some info on the S-300 in exchange. Completely lop-sided deal - changing the strategic calculus in the Middle East and risking upsetting a major potential ally - in return for access codes to a few of Georgia's UAVs? No, I don't believe it's true.
I think Georgia's decision has more to do with the fact that Israel can't be relied upon to deliver as evidenced by the success of Russian pressure following the war, and the price as you mentioned.
flamming_python wrote:Can you enlighten us about the drone affair?
It brings to mind a very vague memory but I wasn't aware there was any distrust of Israeli weaponry (other than that Israel refused to sell certain weapons to Georgia following the August war for fear of upsetting Russia)
In short there was this leak of information that Israel had supposedly selled Russia the codes for the Georgian Hermes drones before the August war in exchange of information about Iran or abort of S-300 delivery. First it was all shrugged off as made up nonsense, hot air. But the topic repeatedly came up even under the new goverment former Defence Ministers. It was neither ever confirmed nor denied, the tone of distrust was clearly set. Fact is, when Georgia started producing it's own drones, "reliability" was menionted in context with "imported stuff" and it was not about technical specifications.
Israelis refused numerous deals prior to the war, the mass delivery of Tavors for the military in 2003-2004, selling Merkava tanks in 2005 etc. Drone purchase has been ceased and no more expensive defence equipment. Latter because shamefuly enormous summs were thrown down the drain for a handfull of heavily overpriced AA Systems - Israeli equipment is way to expensive. For the price of 1 Spyder system we could buy 4 Pantsirs .... we allready got enough problems buying a sufficient amount of small arms from them.
That sounds like balloney; Georgia was a negligible military threat to Russia and before the outbreak of hostilities, war wasn't even thought of as all that likely, albeit possible. And the drones were only one small part of the Georgian military; one that Russia wouldn't have been worried about as it was guaranteed air superiority from day 1.
I heard this rumour before. If I remember correctly it was about Russia giving Israel access codes or some info on the S-300 in exchange. Completely lop-sided deal - changing the strategic calculus in the Middle East and risking upsetting a major potential ally - in return for access codes to a few of Georgia's UAVs? No, I don't believe it's true.
I think Georgia's decision has more to do with the fact that Israel can't be relied upon to deliver as evidenced by the success of Russian pressure following the war, and the price as you mentioned.
What was given by Russia, is not clear, but what is Clear is that Israel gave Russia access to the Hermes 450 fleet because for two days the whole fleet was grounded after 3 Hermes lost contact.
Out of the 40 450's bought (and not fully paid) about 22 were left after both the April 2008 "drone" war and August war.
That sounds like balloney; Georgia was a negligible military threat to Russia and before the outbreak of hostilities, war wasn't even thought of as all that likely, albeit possible.
It's irrelevant if it had anything to do with Russia or not. The refusal of certain delivery requests prior to the outbreak of hostilities is a well known fact.
I think Georgia's decision has more to do with the fact that Israel can't be relied upon to deliver as evidenced by the success of Russian pressure following the war, and the price as you mentioned.
About drones. The entire affair most likely lead to cease the deal wether it was just a rumor or not. About everything else. It's all about the price. As allready said, the delivery of afordable weapons has never been interrupted since 2003. In fact after the 2008 conflict it got significantly increased and some Israeli weapons like the Negev became standart issue equipment. Saakashvili also wasted yet more money on yet another bunch of Spyders ( while consuming half of it and now wasting that stolen Georgian state budget in Ukraine ) before he left office. NATO has lifted all kinds of delivery restrictions it had enwoked after 2008. We can practicaly buy everything we can afford <- and that's not much in our current situation. Israel is not part of NATO and will still only sell small stuff.
If we get more financial and technological support, we are able to expand domestic industry which would also create more jobs and be less dependent on foreign material.
That sounds like balloney; Georgia was a negligible military threat to Russia and before the outbreak of hostilities, war wasn't even thought of as all that likely, albeit possible.
It's irrelevant if it had anything to do with Russia or not. The refusal of certain delivery requests prior to the outbreak of hostilities is a well known fact.
I think Georgia's decision has more to do with the fact that Israel can't be relied upon to deliver as evidenced by the success of Russian pressure following the war, and the price as you mentioned.
About drones. The entire affair most likely lead to cease the deal wether it was just a rumor or not. About everything else. It's all about the price. As allready said, the delivery of afordable weapons has never been interrupted since 2003. In fact after the 2008 conflict it got significantly increased and some Israeli weapons like the Negev became standart issue equipment. Saakashvili also wasted yet more money on yet another bunch of Spyders ( while consuming half of it and now wasting that stolen Georgian state budget in Ukraine ) before he left office. NATO has lifted all kinds of delivery restrictions it had enwoked after 2008. We can practicaly buy everything we can afford <- and that's not much in our current situation. Israel is not part of NATO and will still only sell small stuff.
If we get more financial and technological support, we are able to expand domestic industry which would also create more jobs and be less dependent on foreign material.
How is that Su-25 plant? Making anything new these days?
flamming_python wrote: How is that Su-25 plant? Making anything new these days?
Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing ? It's now part of STC DELTA and basicaly handles the construction, assembly, repair and maintainance of most of the hardware. A few additional plants are being constructed and it's planned to expand it further. Other than that they lost a lot of the know-how, instruments and specialists for constructing more sophisticated hardware such as fighter aircraft, satellites and missiles. Many if not most scientists from Georgia migrated to Russia because it offered better perspectives. Before things got messy, Georgia even constructed it's own extendible reflector antenna that was launched into orbit by Russia in 1999. Even though there were R-60 & R-73 air-to-air missiles displayed during the Independence Day, it's almost certain, those were just leftovers from the past. However DELTA claims that a lot of their projects inherit innovation from aerospace technology, including ground vehicles and ballistic material.
Statement of NCO confirms that the new 120 mm mortar platform designated "GMM-120" has allready been succesfully field tested. Though not by military yet. We also finaly get some information on this thing: It's intended to be mounted on both tracked and wheeled vehicles. It has some sort of recoil supression system integrated which significantly minimizes the recoil and maximizes accuracy. Computer integrated satellite linked targeting system can be replaced anytime by conventional mortar measurement optics etc.
Specs: Rate of Fire: 15 shots/min Rapid firing with maximum charge: 60 shots. Rapid firing with long-range charge: 50 shots. Unit proposed ammo capacity: 4000 rounds Module weight: 1500 kg Maximum firing range: 7100 meters Minimum firing range: 480 meters Full Crew self-proppeled vehicle: 6 men
The new unmanned multi-role helicopter.
There's a reason I haven't mentioned this object untill now. It's mostly because I was and still am waiting for more information and some test footage. I can only cite the specifications and role from DELTA's website, which is as allready mentioned "multi-role", so neither purely surveilance, nor purely combat configurated. But what can be said is that it definitly works both ways. It is intended to use that drone for border patrol, especialy against illegal border crossing in the mountains and trespassing restricted areas, guarding and protecting strategicaly important objects and facilities. It will be equipped with IR sensors, radiolocator and multi-vision surveilance cameras, most likely provided by the US just like the base platform, which btw is the ROTORWAY EXEC 162F. Seems to be working pretty fine during all seasons. There's tons of other fields for civilian use as well, primarily monitoring certain activities like in agriculture, water supply, chemical waste, fire etc, but also transport.
No official specs from DELTA so far.
Wee see the finalized versions of the ballistic helmet and vest that will become GAF standart issue. The ballistic helmet had minor design flaws wich were corrected and currently undergoes final military trials after first field deployment.
Some details and spcs about the new IAMANI
Confirmation that the smg will be delivered to police and security forces primarily, for selected units and special units in first place. Could replace the AKS-74U. No consideration on military service as for now and imo it will remain so. The army still uses the AKSU and since it has better caliber it won't get replaced. But that's just my opinion.
Cartidge extraction can be switched to either side, has a free lock, overall steel frame which makes it quite heavy, except the upper Picatinni rail. Standart 30 rounds 9×19mm Parabellum feed. Accessories can be attached on upper, side and bottom rails.
Weight: 3,2 kg ( slightly heavier than heaviest mp5 variants, almost as heavy as an Uzi ) Rate of fire: 600 rounds per minute ( kinda slow ) Lenght with extended stock: 57 cm Lenght with folded stock: 38 cm Maximum width: 9 cm ( with bottom rail )
All in all, I personaly got mixed feelings about this. I'm in fact glad that Delta managed to make it's own smg, but apart of being a domestic product there really isn't much of a highlight. I like that they went with the classic full steel, but it's making the gun heavy. They should also really work on the firing rate which is just as fast as an UZI. So not really special. But I think they have a solid base for better products in the future.
Last edited by TheGeorgian on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Agreement with France on the delivery of defense weapons has been officialy signed today initiating the first phase of the NATO Substantial Package in accordance to the Wales Summit 2014 Decleration. No details yet on what exactly will be purchased. The first phase will most likely include low-to-medium altitude anti-air systems. There were rumors and talks about the Aster-30 and Crotale complexes. Nothing is confirmed yet and the MOD wants to keep it non-public for now.
15 June 2015, Minister of Defence of Georgia Tinatin Khidasheli in the presence of the Chief of General Staff of Georgian Armed Forces Major-General Vakhtang Kapanadze at the 51st International Air Show in Le Bourget (France) signed a contract with the Franco-American joint venture for the acquisition of Thales Raytheon Systems radar. Officially, the details of the contract were not disclosed, but on the table during the signing of the three-axis model was a mobile radar detection of air targets Thales Raytheon Systems Ground Master 200 (GM200).
15 June 2015, Minister of Defence of Georgia Tinatin Khidasheli in the presence of the Chief of General Staff of Georgian Armed Forces Major-General Vakhtang Kapanadze at the 51st International Air Show in Le Bourget (France) signed a contract with the Franco-American joint venture for the acquisition of Thales Raytheon Systems radar. Officially, the details of the contract were not disclosed, but on the table during the signing of the three-axis model was a mobile radar detection of air targets Thales Raytheon Systems Ground Master 200 (GM200).
Putting some pieces togheter.
GM200 is a multifunctional medium range radar complex which by far outclasses everything the GAF has right now. Here's a link with it's features listed https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/GM200%20Datasheet.pdf
Quoting the MOD from Interview 15.06.2015
Georgia is aquiring a weapon system which will effecitvely cover all of it's airspace.
Might be confirmation of GM200 as a handfull of these will in fact cover all of Georgia's airspace.
It's a type of high quality primary defence complex that is deployed by leading NATO countries.
Crotale NG seems likely. But it might also be confirmation of SAMP-T as it is in fact used by some of the leading NATO countries and also a "primary defence complex" ( Tier 3 )
SAMP-T is a medium range AA battery able to take on 10 targets at the same time. Max range of 100km
Crotale is a low range AA battery with max range of 15km.
Unit cost of a single SAMP-T is about $38 million ( $15 million less than a Spyder - which is a low range system ). Will do in small amounts
The Crotale NG MK-3 is worth some $12-15 million. Will do in larger numbers.
Both weapon systems as well as the radar are offered by Thales Group. However their website gives only information on the naval version.
The important part here is that the SAMP-T is capable of intercepting ballistic missiles, curise missiles etc. Former MOD Alasania has stated months earlier that signing the document would make Georgia capable of "intercepting ballistic missiles".
We must also keep in mind, this is the 1st document of a series of documents to be signed with France. The delivery of radars will probably be Phase 1. Phase 2 may consist of the delivery of actualy defence systems. In the same interview the MOD stated, there were are far greater plans yet to be implemented.
2nd agreement has been signed. http://sputniknews.com/military/20150711/1024488240.html
The details were discussed in a closed goverment session and won't be made public.
the rumors and information that have spread, though not any of them confirming anything, were allready unpleasant enough. Information will be made public when the MOD considers it appropriate
It is official that the physical implementation will begin in January 2016.
Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing plans to maintain production of the modernized Su-25
Georgian weekly "Kviris Palitra" published an article that the Tbilisi Aviation Plant ("Tbilaviamsheni" there is now a part of the State Scientific and Technical Center "Delta" of the Ministry of Defense of Georgia) plans to resume production of modernized version of the Su-25. The upgraded aircraft will receive the designation of Ge-31 "Bora", where "Ge" stands for "Georgia" (Georgia), and "31" - former Soviet Room Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing (№ 31) on the nomenclature until 1966.
George1 wrote:Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing plans to maintain production of the modernized Su-25
Georgian weekly "Kviris Palitra" published an article that the Tbilisi Aviation Plant ("Tbilaviamsheni" there is now a part of the State Scientific and Technical Center "Delta" of the Ministry of Defense of Georgia) plans to resume production of modernized version of the Su-25. The upgraded aircraft will receive the designation of Ge-31 "Bora", where "Ge" stands for "Georgia" (Georgia), and "31" - former Soviet Room Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing (№ 31) on the nomenclature until 1966.
Nah Sounds like hoax. It's a stupid unrealistic idea and nobody ain't having money for that. It would be even easier to build a completly new machine, from scratch.
medo wrote:Where would Georgia get engines for Su-25 production?
the idea, as far as I could reat outa some articles, is basicaly a retrofit with either slightly modified R-95 or R-195 type engines ( for former there's a score of potential sellers ) or if not available, buy completly new but suitable engines from France / Italy, which would naturaly dismiss original specifications on aerodynamics etc. - and consequently require to analyse everything from scratch - which would ofc be decicively more time consuming.
Last edited by TheGeorgian on Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Delta released photos of the Delga series ( produced 2001-2002 ) which never got beyond single prototypes. The vehicles are built around modified GAZ-69 and 66 chassies which include stabilizers for better off-road performance when heavily armed. They were designed exclusively for special operation forces as type of fast assault vehicles and transport.
First model DELGA-1, could be armed with AGS-17 or Fagot ATGM and 2 PKM machine guns
Second model DELGA-2 could be armed with Fagot or NSV and 3-4 PKM machine guns. Even had some protection.
Georgia Takes €82 Million Loan to Purchase Air-Defense Systems from France
The Parliament of Georgia has ratified a loan agreement that outlines a multi-million Euro loan from a French financial and banking services company to allow Georgia to purchase air-defence systems specified through bilateral agreements signed this summer.
Georgia’s Ministry of Finance will take a loan of €82.82 million from the French Societe Generale. Of this money, €77.63 million will purchase the new air-defence systems while the remaining money would fund other risk management expenses.
The loan was stretched to five years and was backed by France’s export credit agency Coface. Georgia will pay a floating interest rate of between 1.27-2.1 percent.
The ratification of the agreement by Georgia’s legislative body was necessary to practically implement the loan deal.
On June 15 this year Georgia’s Ministry of Defence signed an agreement with French-based Thales-Raytheon Systems – a company which produces ground-based surveillance radars and air defence command and control systems.
The following month, on July 10, the Ministry signed another deal with French missile manufacturer MBDA.
The cost and the type of weapons Georgia intended to purchase through the agreements remained confidential.
However through the ratification process yesterday, the total price of the purchase was revealed.
The loan will be spent in several directions:
-- €52.65 million will be spent purchasing item(s) from Thales-Raytheon Systems. The equipment(s) name remains confidential. -- €24.98 million will be paid to MBDA France. -- €5.19 million will be allocated to loan risk issues and other costs will be allocated to Coface.
the systems in talk were ground based VL MICA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICA_(missile) along with GM200 and GM400 mobile and stationary radar complexes.
According to dev the Saudi's signed a contract for 120 units - different versions to be delivered within 2016 for $40 million ( other sources state USD 60 million ). The Didgori got into the final of the 2 year tender and defeated it's US counterpart, after also eliminating 7 other vehicles from respective competing nations.
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