The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

Flyingdutchman wrote:The Netherlands, Australia and the ukraine want a UN mission to secure the crashsite.

Link is in dutch.

http://www.elsevier.nl/Buitenland/nieuws/2014/7/Nederland-Australie-en-Oekraine-werken-aan-VN-missie-rampplek-1565342W/

Writing about what marginal entities like Netherlands, Australia, and Ukraine are told to say lowers the quality standards of this forum.

Hehehe you're kidding right?

Zivo wrote:

TheGeorgian wrote:

medo wrote:You have to know few things about Buk. ...

I know that a single Buk unit requires 3 additional vehicles in total to opperate most efficiently. So from what I gather and what you pretty much confirm, any side posessing such systems could have been responsible for downing it. If the rebels have Buk systems, they gonna be a bit handicapped because I can't imagine they have all the additional equipment apart of the missile launch vehicle itself. So it could have been accidently shot down by them. On the other hand, we have a badly organised Ukrainian military. Maybe they were the ones who "blindly" shot at an unidentified target. But I have to ask myself why should Ukrainians shoot down an aircraft knowing that the separatists don't have any at their disposal ? did the Buk crew make that decision on their own ? it kinda makes little sense. This really really needs neutral and multiple-party investigation. If either Ukrainian military or Seps are responsible, I still believe it was an accident and both sides are simply trying hard to blame eachother for the disaster.
Well, in case of a big dirty game from any of the global players. No hope for any decent investigation.

The Ukrainian military has consistently blamed their loses on Russia. Just one day before the accident they said a Russian aircraft downed their an-26. They also said Russia launched an airstrike on a town South of Donetsk. Today, they're apparently saying Russia downed their two Su-25's.

The Ukrainians are clearly paranoid of Russian strikes in their territory.

IMO, either side could have done it.

How was it possible for Novorussians to have ordered MH17 to use a new route on the 17th so that it then could be destroyed in Novorosssiya? It's only the other side that could have changed the airliner's route, someone with controlling power over MalAir.

i doubt 30 Mike Mike cannon engagement by an SU-25. large-calibre weaponry has a habit of being heavily influenced by air-drag. it arcs like hell, limited projective velocity and if an SU-25 needs to target an Airliner flying close to around mach 0.82. i do not believe an 30 MM of or an SU-25 for that matter did that.

SU25 is not my aircraft of choice to descibe the damage indeed but everyone points out to SU25 so I took this assumption.
Shrapnel is precisely what I had in mind for this kind of damage but I am not sure what air to air munitions use shrapnel let alone that doesn't make sense to me to use such weapon, old school cannon is best way to put down a slow unmaneuverable big jet.

but for arguement sakes, if it was an gun-run attack there are still rounds in the aircraft's parts and bulkheads among the wreckage. that someone is bound to find sooner or later.

Of course. Like I said I never expected a plane to shoot the MH17 but there is really nothing else to explain the wreckage. No matter how crazy this might be it does looks a lot like one of the most blatant and bad organized false flag operations in military history.

but some of my hopes for voice recordings went pretty much out the window with the shrapnell damage to the cockpit fuselage itself. at those speeds it would have been pretty much impossible to get any audioble on recording from the pilots with a breached cockpit. the rebels even said the cockpit section was covered in blood. so i assume one pilot at least was shredded. propably the captain sitting standard at the left side of an aircraft.

There must be a lot of conversations before this point anyway. First of all why the hell changed their flight path to fly exactly above a war zone or why military planes followed them.

and with your statement of dutch homosexual i assume you mean our illustrious Dutch Foreign Minister. he's always among the first indeed to yell "fire" for the U.S interrests. but i assure you he's no homosexual. and neither do i judge people's chosen lifestyles, but i do believe Timmermans. as our foreign minister is called deserves a good beating for politicizing the deaths of Dutch citizens for his pro-american goals.

Feminized is the correct term. Submission triggers estrogen production like you may know  

Hey Hannibal, you are babbling nonsense about missiles and cannons, you should stick with economy.
http://expert.ru/2014/07/23/vyibratsya-iz-dolgovoj-yamyi/
You known, google translate sucks and my knowledge of economy and banking system also, so please explain me what the article is about if you have time  

zino wrote:Hey Hannibal, you are babbling nonsense about missiles and cannons, you should stick with economy.
http://expert.ru/2014/07/23/vyibratsya-iz-dolgovoj-yamyi/
You known, google translate sucks and my knowledge of economy and banking system also, so please explain me what the article is about if you have time  

Nothing. Just Moody's had to write a negative report to express obedience to the masters of universe and found something which has to do with the way Russian companies operate in foreign markets.
Instead of taking loans from Russian banks take loans from the countries they operate for various reasons and say look you have a lot of debts and no deposits.
Yeah fucker but I have my deposits in Russia and they are huge. In other words, panic spreading nonsence. Big Russian companies doesn't have even the slightest shortage of volatility.

And be more polite because next time I will ride the plane, come in northern Italy and smash your face. Capish?

Hannibal Barca wrote:

zino wrote:Hey Hannibal, you are babbling nonsense about missiles and cannons, you should stick with economy.
http://expert.ru/2014/07/23/vyibratsya-iz-dolgovoj-yamyi/
You known, google translate sucks and my knowledge of economy and banking system also, so please explain me what the article is about if you have time  

Nothing. Just Moody's had to write a negative report to express obedience to the masters of universe and found something which has to do with the way Russian companies operate in foreign markets.
Instead of taking loans from Russian banks take loans from the countries they operate for various reasons and say look you have a lot of debts and no deposits.
Yeah fucker but I have my deposits in Russia and they are huge. In other words, panic spreading nonsence. Big Russian companies doesn't have even the slightest shortage of volatility.

And be more polite because next time I will ride the plane, come in northern Italy and smash your face. Capish?

Hehehe! Thank you very much my quarrelsome friend! I did not mean to be rude obviously, it was only a friendly advice   
Now we have to wait until tomorrow in order to known what sanction the EU will splap on. Hope that rationality will prevail.

zino wrote:
Hehehe! Thank you very much my quarrelsome friend! I did not mean to be rude obviously, it was only a friendly advice   
Now we have to wait until tomorrow in order to known what sanction the EU will splap on. Hope that rationality will prevail.

Your joking, wright!?  

mack8 wrote:Guys, regarding the Su-25, do not forget that according to some at least respectable sources say there were TWO Su-27s flying BARCAP and HAVCAP in the area, and according to that infamous spanish controller, two fighters followed MH17 until 2 or 3 minutes before the shoot-down. I don't know if the russian radar used to track movements inside Ukraine could differentiate between different aircraft types, i know the russian general said there was a Su-25 near by, but perhaps he is mistaken and maybe it was a fighter? Anyway i doubt a Su-25 could give chase to an airliner as it is actually SLOWER, and a hypothetical attack window is very, VERY narrow.

Perhaps..
or maybe The civilian radars are not as accurate as military ones.. could be that Ukraine have electronic countermeasures that makes a single SU-25 two look like two.. or the one military plane was flying low which will avoid Russian Radars horizon.when it comes to speed the airliner speed is actually very slow under mach 1.0 and the SU-25 can achieve same speed. The military plane only needs to intercept the plane.. move ahead of its path and when the plane pass hit it with cannon and a missile. or probably was an  Su-24 but either way there was some military plane very near the malasyan plane at similar altitude ,just minutes before it crash.  A single bullet of canon inside the plane will be enough to destroy the claim it was shot down from a Buk missile. Problem is that the Dutch Government and Netherlands wants to sabotage the investigation by sending military to the crash zone.. Rebels have been monitoring everything the inspectors do and filming ,so no false evidence in placed.

edit..
Here is official Russia air radar data records of the plane..



Shows the malasyan plane in red letters flying at 10,100m altitude and speed 900km/s and in the right of the map an SU-25  at same altitude 10,000m and speed of 400 km/s. The SU-25 was on interception mode .  The question here everyone needs to ask.. is why the Ukrainian military plane was flying at 10km altitude? Why?  Just yesterday two SU-25s where shot down from kiev and Ukraine says they were flying at 5,000m. That Russia had to do it ,because the rebels manpads cannot go that hight.



So lets summarize.. The Ukraine Airforce fly 2x su-25 at 5,000 m altitude just yesterday.. because they believed it was safe. but they were shot down.

http://rt.com/news/175084-ukraine-fighter-jets-downed/

So if it was safe yesterday that altitude at least in their opinion.. then what were the SU-25 in the day of the malasyan air crash flying at 10,000m altitude so close to the malasyan plane? and not at 5,000 m  like yesterday ,that is the normal altitude .Because they wanted to wave hands with the commercial airline pilots and passengers?  Kiev airforce simply wanted to be very close the malasyan plane the day of the crash and it was not to take photos of it and wave hands. That radar data image clearly shows the couple of minutes before the civilian plane crash ,how an SU-25 flew to intercept it. The crime scene is illustrated in that information. What was doing a military plane flying at the same altitude of civilian airlines preparing for interception?

Guys the speed theory is a bit of nonsense.

Much slower Mig-19 have downed so many F-4 phantoms in Vietnam with its canons.

You turn on your after burner, you climb, press the button and let go your missile, you bank, turn and go home. It's very very simple.

A lot of people are underestimating the Su-25... with two R-60MK missiles only an Su-25 can happily cruise at a top speed of 950km per hour, but if it is on an intercept mission it really does not need to get to anything like the speed of its target for success... correct positioning means the target comes to it...

As seen in combat in India a single R-60 is capable of bringing down MPA aircraft and firing two missiles at a modern twin engine aircraft could easily lead to its destruction even with its small warhead. Even just 500 grammes of HE delivered to the inside of a modern jet engine will render it ineffective, so with a 3kg warhead the Aphid should be effective enough at least for each engine.

GarryB wrote:A lot of people are underestimating the Su-25... with two R-60MK missiles only an Su-25 can happily cruise at a top speed of 950km per hour, but if it is on an intercept mission it really does not need to get to anything like the speed of its target for success... correct positioning means the target comes to it...

As seen in combat in India a single R-60 is capable of bringing down MPA aircraft and firing two missiles at a modern twin engine aircraft could easily lead to its destruction even with its small warhead. Even just 500 grammes of HE delivered to the inside of a modern jet engine will render it ineffective, so with a 3kg warhead the Aphid should be effective enough at least for each engine.

The engines do not matter, they can be undamaged or damaged that does not matter, the usual kills of ATAMs are they destroy part of the wing and the aircraft loses on one side of its wing from the fragment that was ripped off, lift and than the still fully functional and undamaged wing produces much more lift and the plane starts to spin around and fall down like in the Vikhr Video launched from Su-25 against Tu-16.

If Russia is behind MH17 crash, where’s the evidence? – Defense Ministry

Russia has so far been the only nation to release evidence related to the MH17 crash, the Defense Ministry said, urging other countries to follow suit. Though there have been a lot of claims of Russia’s involvement, none have been backed by proof.

The US claims its intelligence data and satellite imagery confirm that the missile which downed MH17 was fired from rebel-controlled territory. So far it’s only a claim that has to be supplemented by proof, Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov said in an emotional address released on Thursday.

“Where is this data? Why hasn’t it been made public? Is it because it is still being cooked, if I may say so?” Antonov asked in the statement. “By the way, one of the four US experts reportedly said that Russia may have been involved in creating conditions for the launch of this missile. It was nice, of course, of the other three that they did not say anything, but what about the fourth? Does he have any grounds to make such accusations? Or is it something predetermined?”

 Antonov wondered how the bulk of accusations that Russia has been facing could possibly be based on unverified material taken from social media.

“US intelligence officials refer to some photos posted on social networks which allegedly show a missile launcher crossing the border between Russia and Ukraine. What exactly are they talking about? Are they talking about a picture of a Ukrainian Buk being transported somewhere by Ukrainians on a prime mover with a white cab, made in the town of Krasnoarmeysk, which has long been controlled by the Ukrainian military? Or maybe they are talking about a photograph of Buk No. 312? If so, there is another picture of the same launcher rolling as part of a Ukrainian armor column. Gentlemen, are you implying that this is the launcher that fired the missile? If so, demand an explanation from Kiev.”

Antonov reminded that following the plane crash, the Russian Defense Ministry released monitoring data related to the accident. Based on this information, the ministry developed a number of questions for Ukraine and other countries which are blaming Russia for the tragedy. The questions have remained unanswered.

The Russian Defense Ministry would like to know, for example, why the US rules out the possibility that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

“This begs the question: are US experts ready to assume responsibility for their claims? Do they know where all the SAM launchers are deployed in Ukraine? What do they have to say about the monitoring data presented by Russia? Do they ignore it simply because there is nothing for them to say?”

Speaking about accusations of Russian military build-up on the border with Ukraine, Antonov recalled “nine instances of Russian territory coming under fire in the course of June and July” from Ukraine. One of those instances turned fatal for a Russian citizen, Andrei Shulyatyev.

“What if US territory was shelled from a neighboring country and, God forbid, a US citizen was killed?” Antonov asked.

“What would the United States do? I think the answer is obvious. Yet Russia is behaving in a reserved and responsible manner. It is therefore self-evident who is trying to provoke whom at the border. Why don’t you take note of the constant rocket shelling of Donetsk and Lugansk instead, which claims civilian lives?”

Airbornewolf wrote:

and with your statement of dutch homosexual i assume you mean our illustrious Dutch Foreign Minister. he's always among the first indeed to yell "fire" for the U.S interrests. but i assure you he's no homosexual. and neither do i judge people's chosen lifestyles, but i do believe Timmermans. as our foreign minister is called deserves a good beating for politicizing the deaths of Dutch citizens for his pro-american goals.

 

I dont know much about the Dutch situation. But I understand the black boxes are going to England. And the English political class has loads of homosexuals, AND a fair number of homosexual paedophiles (esp amongst key positions).

For instance, the Foreign Secretary (up until a week ago) is a homosexual in a sham marriage. Infact he married under Party orders to deceive voters. He also covered up homosexual child abuse by other politicians. I'm sure the Prime Minister is homosexual too, and many others.

I remember how Belgium's parliament was riddled with lots of weird shit.

What relevance does this have to MH17? (Not alot u might think!). But it is an indicator of how they collude together. Its also an indicator of how things are never as they appear in the press. These freaks have a lot of "levers" on them, so other parties can manipulate them to their own ends. This is how "conspiracies" or as I prefer to say, "collusion" is done.

With my nonexistent Russian language skills, I get the impression from Colonel Cassad that the 79th Nazi Airmobile Brigade has or is getting a massive beating in the south. There are pictures on the colonel's site.

English translations would be made available a bit later.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
FP,

Are you being paid for this?

I haven't forgotten the conversation we had about a couple of month ago.

Yes, I am being paid for this, I've switched allegiences to the Ukrainian government, SLAVA UKRAINY!!  

And what conversation?

Vann7 wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
I thought the change of the MH17 route on 17th from the one used the previous days proves it was a false-flag exercise.

SOmeone hacked Flamming Python account.. i can't believe he loss his capabilities overnight to think and
any analysis. even the Georgian who is anti-Russia is saying he is more inclined that Kiev did it. what happened to you?   

This is a blatant lie . Russia has not produced any evidence to suggest that a Su 25 was tailing MH-17 .

So now you are saying Russia is lying?   
Russia released EVIDENCE , Information from its Radars that there was an SU-25 very close to the malasyan plane ,flying at a similar altitude tracking the malasyan plane. Something that is illegal . because can provoke an accident. There is plenty of examples of planes colliding in air to support the ban the rules for military planes to get close to civilians airliners. Russia shows evidence Kiev have SU-25 near the malasyan plane and proof Kiev LIE ,when they say they didn't had military planes active in the zone that day.  

It's not that someone hacked my account, it's just that you are quoting the wrong person.

Anyway, I think my government is lying, and so too are the rebels whose leaders and principles I've held in high regard. Not sure of it, but I think it's more probable than not.

And that pisses me off, because I don't think this is the sort of stuff one should lie about. Yes I know - Odessa, Mariupol, Kramatorsk, Lugansk, Slovyansk, etc... the Ukraine lying through their teeth about all of these - but 2 wrongs don't make a right, as I used to hear back in the day.
I still support the rebels, they clearly didn't do it on purpose if in fact it was them, and when it comes to someone like Kiev - well you just don't get any worse than them, not in the 21st century.

So please tell us who you believe? Kiev.. ?     the white house?  

Personally, I believe Russia on this claim, and it sounds mighty suspicious, but there could well be reasonable explanations, and it doesn't say anything about whether the Su-25 shot it down or not.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:With my nonexistent Russian language skills, I get the impression from Colonel Cassad that the 79th Nazi Airmobile Brigade has or is getting a massive beating in the south. There are pictures on the colonel's site.

English translations would be made available a bit later.

I think 79th Airborne has gone to hohol heaven (altho maybe thats rather a contradictory phrase!)

Seriously, its saying the 79th Airborn Brigade is defeated. It doesn't give a lot of detail as to whether they mean *absolutely* defeated, and how many of the 5000 or so Nazis is still left there.

They're saying its a "huge loss" in the Cauldron, whatever that means.

I'd hoped the Southern Cauldron would've been frazzled to a crisp by now. So that the Resistance there could set about work in Donetsk, Lug, even elsewhere such as Odessa, infact the whole former Ukraine.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:With my nonexistent Russian language skills, I get the impression from Colonel Cassad that the 79th Nazi Airmobile Brigade has or is getting a massive beating in the south. There are pictures on the colonel's site.

English translations would be made available a bit later.

Massive beating must be the only explanation about what is happening (and been said ) the last week or so.

Firebird wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:With my nonexistent Russian language skills, I get the impression from Colonel Cassad that the 79th Nazi Airmobile Brigade has or is getting a massive beating in the south. There are pictures on the colonel's site.

English translations would be made available a bit later.

I think 79th Airborne has gone to hohol heaven (altho maybe thats rather a contradictory phrase!)

Seriously, its saying the 79th Airborn Brigade is defeated. It doesn't give a lot of detail as to whether they mean *absolutely* defeated, and how many of the 5000 or so Nazis is still left there.

They're saying its a "huge loss" in the Cauldron, whatever that means.

I'd hoped the Southern Cauldron would've been frazzled to a crisp by now. So that the Resistance there could set about work in Donetsk, Lug, even elsewhere such as Odessa, infact the whole former Ukraine.

Thanks, Firebird.

I was under the impression that the 79th Nazi "Airmobile" Brigade was outside of the pocket and was trying to relieve the Nazis that had been trapped inside the southern pocket. If it is true that the 79th was outside of the southern pocket, then that may indicate that the Nazi stooges inside the pocket could have gotten annihilated by now.

I guess we should wait for more info to come in.

The length of the time it seemingly has taken or is taking for the annihilation of the Nazi forces inside the pocket is, of course, due to the scarcity of Novorussian artillery assets and maybe also indirectly due to the MH17 false-flag exersise.

I wonder if Russia has provided a bit of artillery fire or frontal aviation assistance over the night of 23rd-24th, leading into what we see here and thing we haven't seen yet. 

Hannibal Barca wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:With my nonexistent Russian language skills, I get the impression from Colonel Cassad that the 79th Nazi Airmobile Brigade has or is getting a massive beating in the south. There are pictures on the colonel's site.

English translations would be made available a bit later.

Massive beating must be the only explanation about what is happening (and been said ) the last week or so.

I agree. I have also speculated about a related aspect of these events in my previous post that immediately followed your last post.

http://crustgroup.livejournal.com/152151.html

=================

Yuri Birukov, ukrainian volunteer of "Krilya Fenixa" (Wings of Phoenix) group reveals drastic situation on the fronts:

Summary:
There is now any CTO over there, it is full-scale war with tanks, artillery and aviation. And our forces are depleting.
Senior officers and generals literaly don't give a heck about this war. Their HQ near Amrosievka is shamelessly fancy. White and clean tablecloths, nice meals, great tents, adjutants, even sauna. But most important issue is dozens of their bodyguards. They are scared *****less if they have to ride to the combat zone. They arrive in armoured column, all clean and shiny, but no matter the odds they try to return back before the sunset. However, recently their camp was hit with Grad. "I do hope that now they'll understand that shrapnel gives their chubby bellies the same treatment as to grunts."
Junior officers and sergeants prefer not to report anything regarding movements of their units tothe commanding officers. Because if they do, the data of this column will be immediately given to separatists => ambush is inevitable => KIAs are inevitable. The amount of bust**rds and sc*m in HQ is higher beyond comprehension. NatiGuard recieved even worse treatment, some officers are very angry at NatiGuard, they think this war is their very fault, so they whistleblow all data regarding them to the separatists, who do not take "nazi-prisoners" alive.
Sheer amount of lies, BS-talkings, hoorah-patrotism is nondimensional. Everyone from colonel to Mr minister of defence, including Parubiy, Poroshenko and Avakov live in their own world, where seps are killed in thousands daily, UA army is supplied with everything.
Awesome plans of mobilization is pure BS. To become experienced unit must go through fire and blood, smell stench of the gunpowder, witness gore and guts on the ground, spend night under direct fire. It is complete idiotism to expect professionalism from yesterday's students, workers, managers, salesmen, artists, unemployed who are torn away from their peacful lives and throun right into the grinder. They do no understand where they are sent, war is distant for them.
He is certain that in the short time all these liars, idiots and traitors will be cleansed and kicked away from the army.

 Quick translation: donbass battalion is surrounded western outskirts of donetsk, urgent reinforcements needed, anyone in contact with the leaders of donbass battalion or other formations that could help them please do, the lives and health of the soldiers are depending on this.

donbass battalion is in deep trouble.




Seps claims about several tanks burned and over 100 UA troops killed today near Bachmutovka.

http://ria.ru/world/20140724/1017401337.html

==============================


mass Hysteria..   

THERE GOES Arseniy...
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742187

So Suktievilli from Georgia eats his tie.
And Twatsenyuk eats plastic flags.

Where does America dig these clowns up from?

__________
A tactical thing, I'm wondering if it would be worth having unrest in Odessa,Kharkov etc?
I know the limited Resistance numbers mean it would be hard gaining control of these places just yet. And its better to win the fight in Donbass 1st.

But if the junta troops are having to travel between Donbass and say, Odessa, they can be picked off by guerilla style tactics?

I haven't heard a lot about rebellions outside Donbass recently (because people are concentrating the fight on Donbass) but perhaps this tactic would work. Esp if weapons were sent in from Transnitria etc.

I also note that there is discussion its dangerous to travel on roads between Donbass and elsewhere, because Shite Sektor are attacking cars.