Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

sepheronx wrote:

Armenian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If you guys are really mad at Russia, why not protest? Send a clear message to them about displeasure of arms sales.

I imagine if they cut it though, Russia would lose influence over Azerbaijan, and there may not be a ceasefire next time.

It's not like we didn't before.

Check Sarkisyan's statement from today,
http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/209719/

There is an huge western effort in Armenia to change it's direction towards EU. They have many media outlets here, some Armenian looking western financed organisations etc.

But unlike Georgia and Ukraine people in Armenia doesn't have dreams about being in EU or joining to NATO. People always been Pro-Russia here and that's why this situation did/does a huge damage to the Russian image which we had before.

Anyway of course every country has it's own interest. If Russia thinks their position is in their interest then let it be so.

Here is the problem though. Russia either donates, or gives good prices on weapons at really long, really low interest rates to Armenia. Azerbaijan gets none of that. I usually Armenia end up with weapons to counter Azerbaijan (Iskander, S-300). You guys have a problem with Azerbaijan, not Russia. As well, Russia shares borders with Azerbaijan so it isn't a clear cut case here either. But with what Russia has given (they haven't recognized Karabakh as far as I am aware), some of you Armenians sure sound ungrateful. I mean, let's face facts here: Karabakh isn't on Russian agenda, but they still gone out to make sure both agree to stop the fighting and return back. Armenia will not outright get attacked. Karabakh on the other hand might (an has/is). playing the US tactic of "either with us or against us" may not work well for you in the end.  

Russia also needs to keep Azerbaijan in their and Iran field as well or Turkey will reign supreme there. That will work even less in Armenia's favor if they fully fall to Turkeys command. As well, your president should bitch about how Germany also sold weapons to Azerbaijan. Oh well, much easier to blame Russia. Always is. Maybe it is better to feed Armenia to the dogs then? Cause EU helps Azerbaijan, NATO helps Azerbaijan. Russia helps Armenia but sells stuff to Azerbaijan. The only country that helps Armenia seems to be public enemy number 1 for Armenians. I know if Russia told Armenia they can go wherever they want, and EU and NATO turned a blind eye to Azerbaijan and Turkey taking turns on Armenia, it would also be Russia's fault.....

Out of cuirosity, what did exactly Germany sell to Azerbaijan? There is an international arms embargo for both Azerbaijan and Armenia. I don't really remember a single thing which has been sold to Azerbaijan by Germany or any other EU country.

Armenian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Armenian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If you guys are really mad at Russia, why not protest? Send a clear message to them about displeasure of arms sales.

I imagine if they cut it though, Russia would lose influence over Azerbaijan, and there may not be a ceasefire next time.

It's not like we didn't before.

Check Sarkisyan's statement from today,
http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/209719/

There is an huge western effort in Armenia to change it's direction towards EU. They have many media outlets here, some Armenian looking western financed organisations etc.

But unlike Georgia and Ukraine people in Armenia doesn't have dreams about being in EU or joining to NATO. People always been Pro-Russia here and that's why this situation did/does a huge damage to the Russian image which we had before.

Anyway of course every country has it's own interest. If Russia thinks their position is in their interest then let it be so.

Here is the problem though. Russia either donates, or gives good prices on weapons at really long, really low interest rates to Armenia. Azerbaijan gets none of that. I usually Armenia end up with weapons to counter Azerbaijan (Iskander, S-300). You guys have a problem with Azerbaijan, not Russia. As well, Russia shares borders with Azerbaijan so it isn't a clear cut case here either. But with what Russia has given (they haven't recognized Karabakh as far as I am aware), some of you Armenians sure sound ungrateful. I mean, let's face facts here: Karabakh isn't on Russian agenda, but they still gone out to make sure both agree to stop the fighting and return back. Armenia will not outright get attacked. Karabakh on the other hand might (an has/is). playing the US tactic of "either with us or against us" may not work well for you in the end.  

Russia also needs to keep Azerbaijan in their and Iran field as well or Turkey will reign supreme there. That will work even less in Armenia's favor if they fully fall to Turkeys command. As well, your president should bitch about how Germany also sold weapons to Azerbaijan. Oh well, much easier to blame Russia. Always is. Maybe it is better to feed Armenia to the dogs then? Cause EU helps Azerbaijan, NATO helps Azerbaijan. Russia helps Armenia but sells stuff to Azerbaijan. The only country that helps Armenia seems to be public enemy number 1 for Armenians. I know if Russia told Armenia they can go wherever they want, and EU and NATO turned a blind eye to Azerbaijan and Turkey taking turns on Armenia, it would also be Russia's fault.....

Out of cuirosity, what did exactly Germany sell to Azerbaijan? There is an international arms embargo for both Azerbaijan and Armenia. I don't really remember a single thing which has been sold to Azerbaijan by Germany or any other EU country.

MP5 submachine gun is even produced under licence in Aze, same goes for french F1 mortar.

They bought Land Rover Defenders, Mercedes Benz G class, Sako sniper rifles, G3 rifles for peacekeeping, Romanian PSL snipers... They might not openly support military exports to Aze, but some items were obtained via licences and some were bought as "civilian products" and later just militarised.

Armenian wrote:I don't really think our relations can stay as strong as before if Russia continues to sell weapons to Azerbaijan. Armenia itself always remained a trusted ally for Russia. We even stayed togheter about Ukraine crisis and voted in favor of Russia at UN Crimean Resolution .

Selling adversary weapons to Armenia's biggest enemy is a clear betrayal in my opinion. I can't find another word to describe my feelings.

What should Russia have done in your opinion?

Whole thing is back to square one and shooting stopped thanks to Russia.

Was Russia supposed to fight war for Nagorno Karabah? Keep in mind that even Armenia did not send it's military into the fight but Russia somehow should have?

Haha Armenian griefs are somewhat funny. The biggest single culprit of the recent showdown and emboldening of the Azeri forces has been the Surveillance and drone strike suite that is 100% Israeli. Yet there is no one complaint about it. Nope it`s Rasha bad. Name me one Russian system that has been used to actually cause mayhem on Armenian lines?

The fact is that even the damn SuperMil was an Israeli/SAF upgrade zith BLR/Ukrainian Atgm`s. Wow...guess Rasha is the new Jew, does everything & rules everybody.

.
WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC

Remains of what seems to be an Azeri Spec Ops team

http://blognews.am/arm/news/358064/

http://hartak.am/arm/n-57023

WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC
.

TheGeorgian wrote:.
WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC

Remains of what seemed to be an Azeri Spec Ops team

http://blognews.am/arm/news/358064/

http://hartak.am/arm/n-57023

WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC
.

OpS-Core helmet... interesting.

Aze TV...

Another drone

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

OminousSpudd wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Okay....

Wut. The hell would she know about anything.

OminousSpudd,

How do you know that she is not an expert on Mi-24P, Shturm-V, and S-8Kor?

If it's long and hard she definitely is qualified. Sorry for the mysoginistic post.

You're right. I should check mah privilege. Clearly she knows more about Hinds than me anyway.

PapaDragon wrote:

Armenian wrote:I don't really think our relations can stay as strong as before if Russia continues to sell weapons to Azerbaijan. Armenia itself always remained a trusted ally for Russia. We even stayed togheter about Ukraine crisis and voted in favor of Russia at UN Crimean Resolution .

Selling adversary weapons to Armenia's biggest enemy is a clear betrayal in my opinion. I can't find another word to describe my feelings.

What should Russia have done in your opinion?

Whole thing is back to square one and shooting stopped thanks to Russia.

Was Russia supposed to fight war for Nagorno Karabah? Keep in mind that even Armenia did not send it's military into the fight but Russia somehow should have?

Nobody is expecting Russia fighting for us. We can defend our lands by ourselves.

KoTeMoRe wrote:Haha Armenian griefs are somewhat funny. The biggest single culprit of the recent showdown and emboldening of the Azeri forces has been the Surveillance and drone strike suite that is 100% Israeli. Yet there is no one complaint about it. Nope it`s Rasha bad. Name me one Russian system that has been used to actually cause mayhem on Armenian lines?

The fact is that even the damn SuperMil was an Israeli/SAF upgrade zith BLR/Ukrainian Atgm`s. Wow...guess Rasha is the new Jew, does everything & rules everybody.

Here is the thing,
Israel is not our ally. Russia is.

There is a huge difference you know?

I don't want to turn this into a discussion. I am not talking on behelf of my country. I am writing my own views and observations and i think i made my point clear.

Armenian wrote:I don't really think our relations can stay as strong as before if Russia continues to sell weapons to Azerbaijan. Armenia itself always remained a trusted ally for Russia. We even stayed togheter about Ukraine crisis and voted in favor of Russia at UN Crimean Resolution .

Selling adversary weapons to Armenia's biggest enemy is a clear betrayal in my opinion. I can't find another word to describe my feelings.

Russia has no obligation to fight for some land pieces that do not belong to them.

Local people have to to do that for themselves... like we had to do it for ourself during the hot period of 1979-89.

We ourselves didn't blame Russia for not increasing the level of intervention at that time, and I believe you should do the same.

US supported other islamic mujaheedens who later formed Northern Alliance,  Taleban was later  Paki creation and enemy of NI. And even if they did ( for the sake of argument) what super important ally could be hurted by this ?

The US follows the very very stupid policy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This means that while claiming to be anti communist it can have friendly relations with communist China in an effort to separate (ie divide and conquer) Russia from potential like minded allies.

Obviously such a policy is short sighted and stupid... when the enemy is defeated there is nothing to stop such an ally which is no friend at all from turning upon you.

The US would support any group opposed to its perceived enemies... ie the Soviet Union and later Russia and still today will happily arm and equip and fund any group or org opposed to Russia... including groups opposed to the USs interests.

Israel and Saudis are in one bed since decades , and US ceased supplying Iran since it started to be "enemy to Israel" after Khomeini revolution. Also Pakistan is unreliable frenemy to US, not important ally.

Pakistan was Americas best ally when it had troops in Afghanistan, and Iran was always opposed to Israel... it was just when CIA puppets were in power that they did not talk about it. Reliable or unreliable you said the US does not supply countries that are not friends or allies... the US supplied Iran with F-14s which were not supplied to any other ally... in fact it was not just the US... Iran funded the development of a brand new tank with expensive and powerful new armour called the Challenger... when the Shah was overthrown the British Army got those tanks and the Abrams benefited from the techology developed with Iranian money...

The only thing that could be comparable to Russia selling powerful arms to Azerbaijan, would be when US started selling to North Korea just to "equal" power balance on the Korean Peninsula, or rockets to Hezbollah .

The US is trying to sell F-18s to India and sells F-16s to Pakistan...

Azeris buyed weapons from Russia ( and others as well)  solely for the purpose of hurting Armenia, so genius detective mind of Sherlock Holmes was not needed to solve the puzzle why they buy that much so fast ...
But it looks that Russia still didn't care. And Armenians payed by blood cause of this.

Azeris could buy F-22s and it wont make any difference if they don't have superpower support when push comes to shove.

Russia has lost its eastern european market and can't afford to be picky when it comes to weapons sales... business is business. If it came to an actual conflict the Russian support both political and military is worth more than a few toys.

I don't really think our relations can stay as strong as before if Russia continues to sell weapons to Azerbaijan. Armenia itself always remained a trusted ally for Russia. We even stayed togheter about Ukraine crisis and voted in favor of Russia at UN Crimean Resolution .

Selling adversary weapons to Armenia's biggest enemy is a clear betrayal in my opinion. I can't find another word to describe my feelings.

I can understand your feelings but at the end of the day Russia sells weapons. I rather suspect they will not allow the Azeris to take NK by force or if they try to keep it if taken by force.

I rather suspect a large number of polite men will arrive to NK and they will have a referendum to decide by ballot box... once that decision is made then those polite men will have a mandate to ensure the rule of law in that region.

Maybe after this, Russia may be smart enough to freeze sales to Azerbaijan.

Sales to Azeris gives them some control and creates strings that can be pulled in such times as now... if they bought all their weapons from the US or the west then not only would there be no strings Russia could pull but there would be strings the azeris could pull to drag that western sponsor into the conflict...

Russia did openly sold those arms to azeris, so i don't think anybody career is endangered.

The cold war is over... and with eastern europe now in the enemy camp Russia has to sell to countries who still want to buy.

All in all Russia has to choose between Azerbaijani money or Armenia future in their sphere of influence.
I don't wanna see another anti-russian country in caucasus, but if Russia doesn't care about that so be it.

Why can't it have both? Though I suspect if Russia uses polite force to ensure peace then the Azeris might wonder about whether buying Russian hardware is worth it and look to turkey or EU or US.

As I said before... invasion and attack wont work as a long lasting solution... any gains they might make can be undone by the Russians overnight. Better to sit down and discuss.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion. I am not talking on behelf of my country. I am writing my own views and observations and i think i made my point clear.

And I am sure an Indian is wondering why Russia is selling Hinds to Pakistan despite their relationship with India... at the end of the day business is business... but keep in mind when push comes to shove and you need help it will be Armenia that benefits from Russian intervention and assistance and not Azerbaijan... that is where the friendship matters and counts.

The best solution is a peace deal... conflict solves nothing except creates more pain and problems.

As they showed in Syria when you need them they can be there, but forcing an artificial outcome will only bite you in the ass later on.

If Russia had stayed in Syria and steam rolled the opposition then Assad would have no reason to negotiate with the Syrian opposition.

Azerbaijan and Armenia need to talk about NK and about its future and NK needs to be part of this discussion... will there be autonomy, and independent state or some other solution that all parties can live with... you can't find that out with the muzzle of an artillery piece. And taking what you think is your by force leaves the situation open to them doing the same later down the track when you are less wary and they are better prepared.

Another wreck

GarryB wrote:

Pakistan was Americas best ally when it had troops in Afghanistan,

But that was ages ago and India received how many US weapons against Pakis back then ?
Not to mention they solely supported Pakistan against India in 1971.

GarryB wrote:
and Iran was always opposed to Israel...

That is simply not true. Israel and Iran have pretty much more than lukewarm relationship under Reza Pahlavi , and were even sharing some military projects together.

GarryB wrote:
it was just when CIA puppets were in power that they did not talk about it. Reliable or unreliable you said the US does not supply countries that are not friends or allies... the US supplied Iran with F-14s which were not supplied to any other ally... in fact it was not just the US... Iran funded the development of a brand new tank with expensive and powerful new armour called the Challenger... when the Shah was overthrown the British Army got those tanks and the Abrams benefited from the techology developed with Iranian money...

Like i said under Shah it was entirely different because he was basically Anglo-american puppet. Deposing Mossadegh was their co-production.

GarryB wrote:
The US is trying to sell F-18s to India and sells F-16s to Pakistan...

Yeah and what of it ? US does not consider Pakis allies nowadays and are trying switching to India ( to counter China and destroy BRICS among other things). So it is perfectly understandable . And Pakis have really nothing to offer to them now, bar being big pain in the ass.

GarryB wrote:
Russia has lost its eastern european market and can't afford to be picky when it comes to weapons sales... business is business. If it came to an actual conflict the Russian support both political and military is worth more than a few toys.

I actually understand this, cause beggars can't be choosers but all decisions economical or otherwise will have geopolitical consequences and it will be not positive for Russia in long term i'm afraid.

The cold war is over... and with eastern europe now in the enemy camp Russia has to sell to countries who still want to buy.

How could cold war be "over" and EE countries be in "enemy" camp, there is something wrong with this statement.

It is obvious that cold war is still on but Russia lost central and eastern europe, otherwise they would be selling weapons like no tomorrow to Poland for example.

Why can't it have both? Though I suspect if Russia uses polite force to ensure peace then the Azeris might wonder about whether buying Russian hardware is worth it and look to turkey or EU or US.

Azeris are in Turkey camp now, there is nothing Russia can do about it. And this considerably big antirussian sentiment of panturko nationalistic flavour in young azeri population share many similarities with urkian-nazi movement.
The sooner Russia realizes this the better.

The area will be a hotspot until one side prevails and achieves its objectives. Such is the human nature, just diplomacy simply won't work in the long term.

If Azeris decide to have a fully fledged attempt at conquest of NK, Armenia will get involved immediately, and at that point Russian intervention is not far. This is painfully obvious to Azeris, the sole reason they settle for sporadical incidents and fighting: they know they are outmatched in case of a repeated war; no amount of pan-Turkic nonsense, Israeli/UkrOp/RusSoviet/Western gear can change that.

Just accept the reality that there are several parts of the world that will become warzones the moment the international community and bigger factors get preoccupied.

Armenians posing with Aze army equipment.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfdArDlXIAE0yGc.jpg

Graphic content

When the oil price was high, Azerbaijan had the money to buy weapons from wherever it wanted.

If Russia refused to sell to Azerbaijan, our forces would have faced Merkava instead of T-90 etc etc.

Azerbaijan would have still gotten the weapons it wanted.
Armenia would have gained nothing
Russia would have lost income ($$$)
Russia would have also lost some influence over Azerbaijan (and that could be a loss to Armenia too)
Israel would have been the winner ($$$)

Of course, as an ally, Russia should not sell to Azerbaijan on ethical grounds. But this is Realpolitiks, ethics has not place in it or on the battlefield.

The ceasefire seems to be holding, but there is sporadic shooting and shelling with some casualties.

Latest reports indicate that our forces have captured an Azeri URAL truck loaded with ammunition. No pictures yet. Will post if they become available.

New UAV shot down today