Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

Given the BLM spasm in the USA, UK and elsewhere we still have people parroting the inane diversity propaganda. The western
definition of diversity is not merely recognition of its existence, but full bore pandering to it. Like the case with trannies and
public toilets and participation of biological males in women's sports leading to serious injuries of female participants (the
trannies causing the injuries are not some transitioned through surgery "females" on estrogen, they are just asserting
their self-identification as women.)

Russia has been a multi-ethnic state centuries before America existed. The term "tsar of all the Russias" refers precisely to
the fact that there was not one monolithic Russia, but a plurality of constituents. The endless bleating about ethnic Russian
"nationalism" by western hate propaganda is a total lie. Russians for the last 1000 years and by definition before (as with
every ethnic group going back to pre-state days when the idea of nationalism did not exist) has not had the sort of
western nationalism that gave us the Nazis and similar in Europe and the New World. The whole concept of ethnic nationalism
was refined in the west and spread eastward. The break up of the USSR was not because of return to some status quo
before its formation, but because of a combination of Bolshie pandering to ethnic nationalism and western import of similar
as a tool to fragment the Russian Empire.

The people advocating western style "diversity" in this thread want to see Russia divided into little pieces that are easy
to rule by western colonialists. The whole concept of fracturing states to the level of some regional variation is absurd.
Such regional variations are not viable on their own and as with Ukraine and Russia we see that over time any homogeneous
ethnos will regionally diverge. If we keep pandering to this process through border formation and "independence", then
over time all countries will become the size of Liechtenstein and most of them will be fully land-locked and have no resources
for either food or industry.

Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Edit: I know Flaming loves Russia and Russians as he is one. And I know he means well. He is a smart man. It's just some people understand this while others don't.

Japan does well cause it's a homogenous society. So good or bad times, they are able to get together and fix and issue. Multicultural countries can't. They tend to burn as we are seeing everywhere else and start to form new "tribes".

miketheterrible wrote:Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Well, that is the whole neo-colonial shtick of the west. The fabricate fake moral superiority such as "diversity". The propaganda
concept is that we have "more rights" than "you do" since "we have more pandering to trivial differences".

BTW, there is no linguistic oppression in Russia and any sort of "Russification". People repeating this here are either ignorant (western
MSM koolaid drinkers) or liars. Russia has kept the core policies of the USSR in terms of ethnic diversity. That is why it is a
federation. Also, it's cute how Russia is always attacked for this and that, but the precious west is extolled. In Canada,
zero of the aboriginal ethnic groups have any chance at the formation of a state. They were herded onto microscopic reservations
which are total welfare toilets with actual 3rd world conditions. This was deliberate policy to break them since making them
dependent robs them of any spirit to secede and it also establish are corrupt local government on the reservations since the
chiefs and their families make millions off central government welfare. It is a type of banana republic colony model. By contrast,
in Russia we have substantial fractions of the indigenous peoples have functional republics such as the Sakha Republic and
Tatarstan. Russia never herded indigenous people into reservation ghettos.

So all the whiners and critics in this thread can go and shove themselves where the sun don't shine.

miketheterrible wrote:Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Edit: I know Flaming loves Russia and Russians as he is one. And I know he means well. He is a smart man. It's just some people understand this while others don't.

Japan does well cause it's a homogenous society. So good or bad times, they are able to get together and fix and issue. Multicultural countries can't. They tend to burn as we are seeing everywhere else and start to form new "tribes".

Actually he is not "Russian". He is a resident of Russia. There are many in Russia who are sycophants of the west and rabidly
hate Russia. Given how hard they lie about it and how they repeat the self-congratulatory western propaganda, they are not
credible in their convictions. If they have it so bad, then they should bugger on off to their NATzO promised land. Perhaps they
can kiss the feet of some "oppressed by whites" minorities when they arrive.

Russia still has ethnic republics. Each of them has its own constitition and an official language. Their members have no issue with being Russian and Buryst/Tatar/Chuvash at the same time.

In USSR timed a lot of people called themselves Soviet. You could be a Soviet Azeri but you were still Soviet.

In case of Yugoslavia an important role was played economic crisis and by the fact that west really wanted Yugoslavia to collapse. The anti Yugo forced had full backing of a sole remaining superpower, the the federal forces had none.

Had western countries told Slovenes and Croats clearly that they f... their independence and want Yugoslavia to stay united, it would have. Such Yugoslavia might have even joined EU and NATO like Poland did... but dhould you expect such a long term thinking from politicians?

The thread is about the military confrontation btw the two countries not about history of communism.

Isos wrote:The thread is about the military confrontation btw the two countries not about history of communism.

Well, it was Lenin who drew up the borders that left an enclave of Armenia inside Azerbaijan. So the history of communism
is the foundation of the conflict. All around the world such reckless and criminal border creation has resulted in the deaths
of millions. Rwanda and Burundi is a case of this imperial border formation. The Middle East is one big mess thanks to
borders created by France, UK and even the USA (indirectly). Former Yugoslavia is yet more such BS border induced
strife, ethnic cleansing and mass murder. And war.

GarryB wrote:

Never the less I am against forced Russification; especially on lands of other peoples which is what I'm talking about. The whole school system has switched to drive out native languages in many republics. Hopefully after Putin gets the boot that can be reversed.

Well I can understand what he is doing... should state funded schools support every little ethnic language and culture... my brother is a teacher and he had parents complaining that their children have no manners.... why isn't he teaching them manners.

He is a high school teacher and basically said we only have them from 9am to 3pm... you have them the rest of the time.

If these ethnic minorities have not taught their children to speak their ethnic minority tongue by the time they go to school why do they think the Russian government should teach them about their culture>

Especially when the west is using minority groups to break up Russia.

When you say Russian schools should teach different minority ethnic languages or it is oppression... are you also saying that not teaching all Russian children about different sexuality choices is also oppression of sexual deviants... whoops, gay and bi members of the community?

If there is demand I would expect an ethnic minority in fear of losing its culture and language would set up their own schools to keep their language and culture alive instead of expecting the government to provide that.

In the west we used to call that user pays.

We don't need lessons in civilization, not even from the West.

Vast majority of minority groups are loyal to Russia and fought side by side with us when the Nazis tried to exterminate Russians, and continue to serve Russia.
So yes their problem is my problem. Of course not all of them have a problem, most don't care themselves and are mentally just Russians. But still everyone's a Russian citizen and has to have the same rights.

Russia is rather more like Iran or India in this respect than Western countries which are adopting the model of America; where everyone is a diaspora. In that case yes, it makes sense for everyone to learn one language
But Russia is different in that's it's a colonial empire that instead of collapsing started the transition into a socialist state before that, and now we're reverting to the empire model which will inevitably lead to dissent and collapse in the long-term. This trend must be reversed.

The situation is not uniform; in some republics everyone learns the native language including Russians, whereas in others they've been removed altogether. This violates the constitution, as there is clearly demand for non-Russian language education

miketheterrible wrote:Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Edit: I know Flaming loves Russia and Russians as he is one. And I know he means well. He is a smart man. It's just some people understand this while others don't.

Japan does well cause it's a homogenous society. So good or bad times, they are able to get together and fix and issue. Multicultural countries can't. They tend to burn as we are seeing everywhere else and start to form new "tribes".

So do I hate Russians or love them? Make up your mind.

I'm a patriot of Russia and I see where the country is heading, making the same mistakes as the Russian Empire and the later half of the Soviet Union, and all because our dickhead leaders don't want what's best for the country and are afraid of leaving power, as they'll be prosecuted inevitably afterwards.
This whole tribalism thing is a result of all this bureaucracy, all these oligarch groups, lobbies, filling people's minds with backwards nonsense to subjugate them to their own business interests. Tribalism will always exist but it's inflamed exactly by people who install themselves in power and then eye a comfy seat for themselves as the heads of some community or independent Bantutistan loyal to NATO and American business interests. That's what happened in Georgia and Azerbaijan starting from the 70s, their leaders worked themselves up to the top of the communist heirarchy, installed themselves into their respective republics, and then started carrying out rather un-socialist policies such as chauvinism towards Abkhazians and Ossetians in Georgia forbidding their language and colonizing them with Georgians, and in Azerbaijan colonizing Nagorno-Karabakh with Azeris and making life shit for Armenians there. Then came the late 80s and these same sort of leaders and intelligencia started fanning the flames of ethnic provocations themselves and then just rode the populist and nationalist wave into independence. And look what conflicts we ended up with in Azerbaijan and Georgia as a result.

The way to combat this is through local independent organs of people's democracy, that leaders are elected from and answer to, and justify by scientific thesis the decisions they make and accept criticism. And increase the education levels of the people as a whole, so that they know how statehood and government works, political and economic policies and theories. Remove the intellectual vanguardism that modern governments are ruled by, when the people in power decide they know what's best for the population instead of asking the people themselves, presenting their theories and discussing counter-theories.
The Soviet model of top-down beurocracy that all sorts of careerists climbed by pretending to be committed socialists and then deciding for their own populations what's best for them - is part of what led to its downfall and various nationalisms, issues.

Really the language issue is not what's on everyone's mind. It's not critical, I'm just using it as an example. What's on everyone's mind is our attempted transition back into Tsardom. It's absurd. We're not in the 19th century and can't follow an outdated model of development.

The USSR's achievements were not because of the Russian people, or the wider Soviet people. The achievements were because of its social order, its economic order, it's education system. Whatever all that is, is what society of people you get. What I see between then and now is a steady degradation of people in knowledge, critical thinking abilities, and so on. We're becoming serfs.

http://www.ilivemap.com/1241/greece-military-delegation-meet-with-minister-of-defense-of-armenia-in-yerevan-to-discuss-bilateral-cooperation-in-the-field-of-defense

On July 20, the Minister of Defense of the Republic of Armenia David Tonoyan received the Chargé d'Affaires of the Hellenic Republic in the Republic of Armenia. During the meeting, the current state and achievements of the Armenian-Greek bilateral cooperation in the field of defense, the further development of the cooperation were discussed. The Greek side has confirmed the continuation of military education and Greek language training programs.

The Minister of Defense of the Republic of Armenia David Tonoyan stressed the importance of holding military-political consultations and expressed hope that the already planned events will be implemented in the near future.

On the occasion of the completion of his mission in Armenia, the Defense Minister thanked the Military Attaché, Colonel Dimostenis Simayakis for his significant contribution to the development of the Armenian-Greek defense cooperation during his tenure and awarded the Attaché with the Medal for Military Cooperation.

Issues related to regional security were also discussed during the meeting. The Armenian Minister of Defense presented the situation on the Armenian-Azerbaijani border and the destabilizing regional developments taking place around it.

Greek delegation visit Armenian MoD. Greece is doing hard to spoil Erdogan's plans.

I hope The Armenian could tell us more about situation on the border.

@flaming_python: uhm... I made a new comment about that issue in the thread "decline of western society" and you can move the aboved comments to that thread too.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1285522034320080896

Armenia shows plenty of Azerbaijani drones and loitoring munitions downed. Another proof drones are not able to replace manned jets.

Armenian air defense armed with older Russian SAMs and AA guns made massacre on Azerbaijani drones, mostly Israeli made. Russian air defense complexes worked just fine in hands of well trained and competent crews. Turkish drones made massacre on Arap air defense not because Pantsirs are bad, they are just fine as we see in Hmeimim operated by Russian crews, but because Arap crews are badly trained and incompetent and use them in wrong way.

medo wrote:Armenian air defense armed with older Russian SAMs and AA guns made massacre on Azerbaijani drones, mostly Israeli made. Russian air defense complexes worked just fine in hands of well trained and competent crews. Turkish drones made massacre on Arap air defense not because Pantsirs are bad, they are just fine as we see in Hmeimim operated by Russian crews, but because Arap crews are badly trained and incompetent and use them in wrong way.

Turks used koral and had the advantage there mostly because they faced unprepared SAA. Once they bring real AD forces instead of just 2 pantsirs for all idlib turkish drones were training targets.

We don't need lessons in civilization, not even from the West.

Vast majority of minority groups are loyal to Russia and fought side by side with us when the Nazis tried to exterminate Russians, and continue to serve Russia.
So yes their problem is my problem. Of course not all of them have a problem, most don't care themselves and are mentally just Russians. But still everyone's a Russian citizen and has to have the same rights.

Well it is an issue everywhere... here in New Zealand the local Maori demand their language is taught in schools... the problem is that some tribes are stronger than others so essentially the Maori language that is taught in New Zealand schools is North Island Maori... if it is worth saving then I think it all needs to be saved, but the obvious problem to start with is that the schools now have to teach Maori... who is going to teach them?

Not everyone who speaks a language is a good teacher.
The point if I want to learn South Island Maori I need to organise that myself and then put up with pricks who learned north island maori and think that is the correct maori and the dialect I am using is wrong, but if it is worth keeping the language and culture alive doesn't that apply to all regional types?

My family tree includes welsh and scottish and irish as well as english branches but I only ever learned english at school... would I be a better New Zealander if I learned those other languages as well. If I wanted to learn them I could but should I expect the New Zealand School system to provide it? There were japanese and chinese and people from other countries around the world in my classes at school... how many languages should a school cater to?

From a schools perspective do they teach the local languages and Russian only... what if they have a class of children from other areas would they need to get teachers in that speak those languages too... it is a huge can of worms.

If you make it optional and no one chooses the option what then.... if no one chooses the option for the next 20 years and then you get someone who wants to learn but there are no teachers to teach it...

Personally I would take it out of schools and build museums and research centres for culture where they could run teaching classes in the language and culture and anyone who wants to go gets funding from the state. It could be like a university type thing that includes research and preservation so information is collected and kept for future generations that might become interested in their past... especially when they lose their connection to the present.

But Russia is different in that's it's a colonial empire that instead of collapsing started the transition into a socialist state before that, and now we're reverting to the empire model which will inevitably lead to dissent and collapse in the long-term. This trend must be reversed.

New Zealand is a former colony, and we have no plans to collapse... I don't think of myself as white... I am just a New Zealander, and when I see other New Zealanders I really don't care what their skin colour is or how their last name sounds to me... a New Zealand citizen is a New Zealander as far as I am concerned and I expect no less in return.

But as you say, the west is not something Russia should emulate... which is why I approve western sanctions on Russia... it is tough love but it also protects you from following a road that leads to a cliff and a fall.

The situation is not uniform; in some republics everyone learns the native language including Russians, whereas in others they've been removed altogether. This violates the constitution, as there is clearly demand for non-Russian language education

I would think the situation would be based on the situation wouldn't it? If everyone speaks Russian and few speak the local language then there is less reason to teach the local language. If everyone speaks the local language and Russian then teach everybody both.

I'm a patriot of Russia and I see where the country is heading, making the same mistakes as the Russian Empire and the later half of the Soviet Union, and all because our dickhead leaders don't want what's best for the country and are afraid of leaving power, as they'll be prosecuted inevitably afterwards.

Who is going to lead a country when there is a witch hunt at the end to prosecute afterwards?

I would say of all the politicians around the world the only ones that have stuck to their guns in the interests of their people were Russian.... even China gave in to some sanctions...

This whole tribalism thing is a result of all this bureaucracy, all these oligarch groups, lobbies, filling people's minds with backwards nonsense to subjugate them to their own business interests. Tribalism will always exist but it's inflamed exactly by people who install themselves in power and then eye a comfy seat for themselves as the heads of some community or independent Bantutistan loyal to NATO and American business interests.

Isn't having local languages promoting and enabling tribal differences?

Remove the intellectual vanguardism that modern governments are ruled by, when the people in power decide they know what's best for the population instead of asking the people themselves, presenting their theories and discussing counter-theories.

That is all well and good, but asking the people is not always the best solution... examples would be the election of Trump, and Brexit.

The real problem is supply of honest information, and with the BBC and Brexit the BBC was for remain... the fact that the people voted to exit suggests the people don't trust the BBC any more than I do... but there never seemed to be any proper debate and discussion about what it would all mean just each side trying scare tactics to get people to vote their way.

In the same sense elections in the west have become popularity contests... you can promise anything you like... there is no accountability once you are in...

And there are usually only 2 candidates to choose from and often one is total shit but you vote for them because the other one is worse.

The western model is no better even though you are using it now technically.

The USSR's achievements were not because of the Russian people, or the wider Soviet people. The achievements were because of its social order, its economic order, it's education system. Whatever all that is, is what society of people you get. What I see between then and now is a steady degradation of people in knowledge, critical thinking abilities, and so on. We're becoming serfs.

Well I thought in the early 1990s that it would be rather better to change from communism to a more socialist structure with elections and then decide which way you want to go... instead you pretty much went through the fire sale slash and burn process that has killed smaller countries like the Ukraine...

I might move this and other posts to the western decline thread as I would like to read about FPs thoughts on a better society model... certainly the everything is for sale US model doesn't work.

Living quarters for russian peacekeepers in Stepanakert

Russian to become official state language in Artsakh

The parliament of Artsakh will adopt amendments to the language law which will give the Russian language an official status in addition to Armenian.



https://twitter.com/301_AD/status/1362042081515106312

So it will be Russian language in addition to Armenian and Klingon?

Isos wrote:

When I see numbers on wikipedia it's like they spent not more than 1 billion. Which is very low for a country that export gas and has a conflict with its neighbour.

Azerbaijan bought at least $5 billion worth of armaments from Russia itself since 2010 to 2014/15.

S-300PMU2, T-90, BMP-3, BTR-82A, Khrizantema-S, over 100 helicopters (Mi-35M & Mi-17), various artillery systems (Smerch, Msta-S, Vena, TOS-1A), Igla-S etc

At least $5 billion from Israel since 2010 too, but probably closer to $7 billion since the 5 billion figure was from the end of 2016 and new contracts were signed after 2016:

Contract for LORA missiles
Contract for Barak-8 ER air defence system
Contract for Spike ER & Spike NLOS missiles, both actively used during the Second Karabakh war.

Aliyev’s statement from Dec 2016:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-azerbaijan-has-bought-5-billion-in-israeli-military-goods-1.5473569

Also since 2010: About 1$ billion from Turkey. More than $1 billion from Belarus (contracts for Buk-MB and Polonez) etc etc

Azerbaijan has set aside $1.2 billion for «special defence related projects and activities» (“xüsusi müdafiə təyinatlı layihələr və tədbirlər”) in 2021 state budget.

This is an annual state budgetary item and is mostly the funds directed towards purchase of armaments (military infrastructure too but the lion share is defence procurement).

So your comment that Azerbaijan does not invest in its military vs Armenia, or that Armenia somehow had a better equipped military than Azerbaijan is total bullocks.

AttilaA wrote:Azerbaijan has set aside $1.2 billion for «special defence related projects and activities» (“xüsusi müdafiə təyinatlı layihələr və tədbirlər”) in 2021 state budget.

This is an annual state budgetary item and is mostly the funds directed towards purchase of armaments (military infrastructure too but the lion share is defence procurement).

So your comment that Azerbaijan does not invest in its military vs Armenia, or that Armenia somehow had a better equipped military than Azerbaijan is total bullocks.

Billions but numbers are not there.

I think something like 2 barak and 2 S-300. The rest is obsolete.

No modern fighters. Neither did they modernized tge old ones. Drones won't help against a real opponent. Armenians were a joke with no weapons on their fighters, no use of AD, corrupt government...

Even Armenia that is poor has bought more weapons.

Azeri thanks to the oil/gas could buy easily tens of mig-35 with hundreds of tactical missiles, 6 or 7 buk complexes, more MLRS...

5 billions over 5 years is peanuts.

Isos wrote:

AttilaA wrote:Azerbaijan has set aside $1.2 billion for «special defence related projects and activities» (“xüsusi müdafiə təyinatlı layihələr və tədbirlər”) in 2021 state budget.

This is an annual state budgetary item and is mostly the funds directed towards purchase of armaments (military infrastructure too but the lion share is defence procurement).

So your comment that Azerbaijan does not invest in its military vs Armenia, or that Armenia somehow had a better equipped military than Azerbaijan is total bullocks.

Billions but numbers are not there.

I think something like 2 barak and 2 S-300. The rest is obsolete.

No modern fighters. Neither did they modernized tge old ones. Drones won't help against a real opponent. Armenians were a joke with no weapons on their fighters, no use of AD, corrupt government...

Even Armenia that is poor has bought more weapons.

Azeri thanks to the oil/gas could buy easily tens of mig-35 with hundreds of tactical missiles, 6 or 7 buk complexes, more MLRS...

5 billions over 5 years is peanuts.

What is obsolote?

What do you mean by numbers? 200 T-90 is $1 billion on its own, and since when is that a small number? Especially compared to Armenia? Russia itself has no more than 300-400 T-90A.

5 billions from Russia only. Did you ignore the part about Israel and other countries?

«Even Armenia that is poor has bought more weapons.»

Source?

«more MLRS»

Azerbaijan has bought multiple MRL systems from multiple countries, including multiple guided variants.

EXTRA, Polonez, Kaplan guided MRL systems were all used during the last war.

30 units of Smerch, 36 TOS-1A etc

Armenia had only 6 units of Smerch, 4 of which were destroyed during the war.
.

As for aircrafts, it was Azerbaijan who used them the most during the war. And most effectively too. More than 600 sorties with Su-25.

Here is the video Azerbaijan MOD published few days ago that shows Su-25 strikes with mostly laser guided bombs.

https://youtu.be/QfAtC9kjpik

QFAB-250 LG, a joint project between Azerbaijan and Aselsan with the integration of Aselsan Laser Guidance Kit on Azerbaijani produced general purpose bombs.



From the video:



Your «problem» is that your source of information is Wikipedia and you have no more than superficial knowledge on the topic.

10 billion for 200 t-90, 2 s-300, 2 barak 8, laser kit for bombs, 36 mlrs and other drones ?

That sucks. And most of those systems don't even need contracts for training and maintenance.

For that money you can get 24 mig 35, 2 s-400 with 12 tor to protect them and what not else.

Armenia, if they didn't had corrupt government, could have won with its 4 su-30 easily. With 40 kh-31P they would have destroyed AD and with RVVSD they would have destroyed azeri migs. Then with total air superiority they would have win easily on the ground.

Spike NLOS strikes on BM-21 Grad, 2x T-72, D-30 howitzer (launched from helicopters).



Spike ER strike on Armenian position.



Spike LR strike on Armenian T-72.