Auxilliary vessels, Special-purpose and minor naval ships

Krepost wrote:RAPTOR and BK-16 next to each other

Mir wrote:

Krepost wrote:RAPTOR and BK-16 next to each other

Still a mystery to me why they opted for both the designs that are almost identical?

Scorpius wrote:*sigh.*
The topwar website has long ago turned into an alarmist information wash with the opinions of "experts" broadcasting from the sofa.
Why bring links to this resource here at all?

Scorpius wrote:The topwar website has long ago turned into an alarmist information wash with the opinions of "experts" broadcasting from the sofa.
Why bring links to this resource here at all?

lancelot wrote:

Scorpius wrote:The topwar website has long ago turned into an alarmist information wash with the opinions of "experts" broadcasting from the sofa.
Why bring links to this resource here at all?

A lot of Russian websites like Topwar and BMPD are quite dissapointing. In the case of Topwar it has doomerist articles and doomerist comments, and in the case of BMPD the articles themselves are fine, but there are way too many doomerist comments disparaging otherwise great weapon systems. For example BMPD comments were disparaging the Borei-A sent to the Pacific recently. This is the most advanced SSBN in service today and yet they claim it is shit. F'in idiots.
A lot of people disparaging the submarine, and others the Bulava claiming it doesn't work. Just plain idiocy.

Will Russian ships become Chinese?
August 15, 2023 at 10:39 am Topic: Industry
The intensity of meetings on the topic of import substitution in shipbuilding and shipbuilding in 2023 is breaking all records. Almost every month, USC, Central Research Institute "Kurs", and the Ministry of Industry and Trade gather industrialists, designers and representatives of shipyards to solve the problem of technological independence from the West. These discussions cannot be called simple: the industry is divided into opposing camps, one of which is actively promoting Chinese products to the market. Not only civilian ships, but also the auxiliary fleet of the Navy were under the threat of saturation with components from the Middle Kingdom.

On Wednesday, August 16, the next meeting will be held dedicated to the implementation of Russian Government Decree No. 719 “On confirmation of the production of industrial products on the territory of the Russian Federation.” The previous meeting, held on June 28 and dedicated to another resolution - No. 1872, almost ended in a scandal. Representatives of one of the leading design bureaus USC stated that they consider it advisable to give preference to Chinese ship components. As witnesses to this speech told Mil.Press, representatives of the corporation had to reassure domestic producers after such a statement.



But, obviously, there is no unity of opinion in the country’s main shipbuilding corporation. For example, in October 2022, the general director of Sudoexport (part of USC) stated that the possibility of fully equipping the dry cargo ship of the RSD34 project with Chinese equipment was being considered . At that time, Sudoexport noted that not all Chinese manufacturers had RMRS certificates, but they were already working on the issue of centralizing import purchases. At the same time, the main task of the organization within USC, as evidenced by their own website , is the export of ships.

On the other hand, fishing companies are putting pressure on the legislative regulation of import substitution. In July, at a meeting under the auspices of the Far East and Arctic Development Corporation, they asked not to increase localization requirements for ship construction. “The equipment that is needed to equip a fishing vessel is often not produced in the Russian Federation, we are ready to invest in redesign and search for joint alternative ways and solutions, but it is impossible to include in the project something that does not exist or untested hypotheses, as this will lead to constant redrawing of projects with corresponding costs and losses, and fishermen are not ready to pay from their wallets. In addition, Russian enterprises very often inflate prices for their products several times compared to analogues from friendly countries and, at the same time, of lower quality. Russian fishermen are ready to buy domestic, but on competitive terms. Therefore, we support the association’s proposal to maintain localization points until the end of the second stage of investment quotas,” Stanislav Aksenov, a member of the board of directors of the Russian Fishing Industry Company, bluntly stated.

China began an aggressive expansion into Russian shipbuilding in 2022, during a new round of sanctions pressure. The European producers who remained on the market left “one day,” leaving literally “scorched earth” behind them. There is still equipment at shipyards that cannot be started without foreign software. And Chinese industrialists began to actively offer their analogues, often even bypassing their traditional intermediaries.

When Mil.Press interviewed designers from more than 50 shipbuilding design bureaus in the second quarter of 2022, their “urgent” needs covered a wide range of equipment from key to “small things”: gearboxes and buckets for dredgers, winches, control systems, almost everything cryogenic equipment for LNG projects, engines and propellers, scrubbers, stern seals, fish processing equipment, boats, propellers, power supplies, generators and much more. As of 2022, according to the report of the SKO Center, out of 292 ships being built in Russia, 76 (that is, 26%) were orders with high construction risks due to problems with import substitution.

Back then, it was really difficult to quickly produce domestic analogues of equipment to plug holes in projects already under construction. And given the limited budget, part of which at that time had already been paid to European suppliers, it was completely unrealistic.

But today, in 2023, taking into account the joint work of shipbuilders and equipment manufacturers, as well as thanks to subsidies under the 1872 decree, Russian enterprises have something to offer the industry.

“Within the framework of the 719th resolution, a ship needs to score 2200 points. You can try to combine equipment that today is realistic to purchase from one manufacturer. For example, water treatment systems and desalination plants give 75 points for each product, wastewater treatment - 80 points, purification systems bilge water - 70 points, fuel separators - 75 points. In total, if you install domestic water treatment, desalination systems, fuel separators and conventional equipment, this will give a minimum of 375 points (17% of the required - ed.), but there is usually not one installation of each type,” one of the interviewed experts, specializing in civil shipbuilding, explained to the editors.

This concept of an “integrated manufacturer-supplier” looks attractive from the point of view of meeting legal requirements, but design bureaus are often more comfortable working with even more complex suppliers who are able to “cover” almost half of the vessel with the supplied equipment, albeit at the expense of the place of its production.

For example, Mil.Press became aware of the original method of forming makers' lists at Vympel Design Bureau. At least one designer has a closed group on Telegram , where they announce the start of work on a specific project. In response, equipment suppliers provide a complete list of their products that they offer for the project.

The problem of the dominance of Chinese equipment on Russian projects is also seen at the Kurs Central Research Institute. “The market is, of course, a market, but as many now admit to me, most customers have fled to China again. For various reasons, they are still uncomfortable working with Russian manufacturers,” the head of the import substitution and localization center said in an interview in May 2023 Dmitry Stoyanov.

At the end of 2022, the FSUE Hydrographic Enterprise also expressed its position. “The Russian market for marine equipment must be protected from Chinese and Turkish products,” Deputy General Director of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise Anatoly Masanyuk bluntly stated .

The customer’s representative also spoke out against the parallel import of European products, noting emerging problems regarding warranty repairs.

It is the service of already supplied equipment, according to some experts surveyed, that can become decisive in Russia’s fight against China. Thus, in the next five years alone, it is planned to build 260 ships by order of State Transport Leasing Company alone.


At the same time , an assessment of the capabilities of Russian ship repair showed that this industry is not ready for a future influx of orders, even from the point of view of docking capacities. If we build a logical chain, then the lack of docks will lead to the fact that ship repair enterprises will be interested in the fastest possible work for the period while the ship is raised from the water. And this, in turn, will increase the demands on the ability of equipment suppliers to provide their fast service.

“At the global level, customers understand this. It is not without reason that during any audit we are required to confirm that the service department is actually working and meets regulatory requirements. However, often the audit is completed and traditional desires to buy cheaper in China come into force,” says one of the interlocutors of Mil.Press from among the producers of domestic SKO.

The auxiliary fleet of the Navy has become a separate field of struggle between Russian and Chinese manufacturers. In the realities of 2023, warships are protected from import supplies at the first level of regulatory cooperation: here are military acceptance, and requirements for launching production in accordance with GOST RV, and product certification, and, finally, the principled position of the customer.

At the same time, the auxiliary fleet is being built simultaneously under the control of the VP and the Register. It would seem that there are more requirements, but in practice the design bureau and the shipyard can allow equipment on the ship that only has a RMRS certificate.

This is how the head of the auxiliary fleet service of the ATO of the RF Ministry of Defense, captain 1st rank Sergei Epifanov, explains it. “Ship components, including those of foreign manufacture, supplied for them must have a certificate from the Russian Maritime Register of Shipping. This approach significantly reduced the cost of construction, which made it possible in a short time to largely update the vessel composition of the Navy’s auxiliary fleet,” it says article on the website of the Russian Ministry of Defense.

But it was the auxiliary fleet that during the first wave of sanctions from 2014–2022 became a real headache for all construction participants:
• Cable ship project 15310. “The delay in construction arose presumably due to the need to replace imported equipment with domestic equipment,” TASS writes about the project.
• Logistics support vessel project 23120. “There were objective difficulties associated with the supply of imported equipment,” the USC website quotes Yuri Borisov.
• Project 23470 tugboat. “The transfer of the tugboat to the Black Sea Fleet was delayed due to the reworking of the project to replace imported components with domestic ones,” quote from Regnum news agency.
• Sea transport of weapons of project 20360M. “The delay could be due to the fact that, according to the project, it was planned to place an imported power plant on the ship,” suggests Military Review.
• Rescue tugboat of project 22870. “The costs taken into account when determining the price of the vessel included the costs of purchasing imported materials, equipment and components necessary for the manufacture of the vessel in accordance with the technical requirements specified in the contract. Due to a significant increase in foreign exchange rates in period of contract execution (September 2014 – December 2018), which could not be taken into account when forming the contract price in the prescribed manner, the plaintiff incurred additional costs for the purchase of imported materials, equipment and components provided for in the Contract (exchange rate difference),” – says in the court materials between the shipyard-builder and the Ministry of Defense.
• Small hydrographic vessel of project 19910. “Due to sanctions and the policy of import substitution, the project had to be significantly modernized, all documentation had to be reworked, foreign equipment replaced with Russian equipment, and everything had to be coordinated with the customer,” Korabel quotes the commercial director of the shipyard-builder.

Similar publications can be found about other projects. At the same time, taking into account the specifics of the state defense order, as a result of these problems, almost all participants in the process find themselves in the red: the shipyard receives lawsuits from the military department for missing deadlines, naval officials risk becoming involved in criminal cases, domestic manufacturers of equipment receive “import-substituting” orders with deadlines “yesterday” and financing based on the residual from the initial purchase.

It is not customary to talk about this, but the situation can only be beneficial to one side - the design bureau.

“Import substitution has become one of the priority tasks in design. The need to redesign serial orders under construction to replace imported equipment included in the projects led to an increase in the Company’s technical support work in 2022,” says, in particular, the annual report of Vympel Design Bureau .

At the same time, the pace of construction of the auxiliary fleet is growing. Thus, in 2023 alone, according to official statements by the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, the fleet will receive more than 20 support vessels. For comparison, in the previous ten years, 100 vessels were delivered (“tugs, tankers, offshore targets, floating cranes, multifunctional transports, icebreakers,” the report says). Official statements state : all new auxiliary vessel projects must be made only from domestic components.

And with order volumes growing, evidence of the first problems is emerging. Thus, in the material of the head of the auxiliary fleet service, Sergei Epifanov, the project of a small sea tanker is mentioned . At the design stage, it was indeed primarily Russian equipment manufacturers that were involved. However, at the stage of forming the statements of the construction plant, new suppliers began to emerge. In particular, a second supplier of a desalination plant has appeared, offering products with acceptance only by RMRS, which automatically makes it a cheaper option compared to a supplier with equipment for VP. And returning to the issue of subsequent maintenance, it is worth considering that only ordering equipment supplied to production in accordance with GOST RV guarantees that the manufacturer has a license for military and military equipment service.

In connection with such cases, calls are increasingly being heard in the industry: “Let’s decide once and for all whether there is an auxiliary fleet: a military order or a civilian vessel!” And if the answer is “civilian ship,” then is there room on board for Chinese products?