Novorossiya Armed Forces (NAF)

I open the new treat about Novorussian air force, which is for now at the beginning of its existence with 1 Su-25, 1 L-29 and few small trainers. No doubt, that Novorussia need its own air force, to support their ground forces and to protect their air space, specially as there is also NATO against them, so sooner or later they will have to face them either as NATO supplied combat planes in Ukrainian air force, either as NATO expedition itself.

Novorussia have some bases for creation of their air force in Lugansk aviation repair plant with some space and tools. Considering Novorussia is not recognized state, they have no option to buy planes, so they have to build them. At first, they could build new halls in their plant and to buy machinery and tools to produce simple civil planes by license as Il-103 trainers and SM-92T Turbo Finist light transport planes, which could be used in civil sector and in Novorussian air force for basic training of their pilots. Il-103 is good modern plane for basic training for beginners and SM-92T could be used for parashute jumps training. Novorussian AF will need around 24 Il-103 and 12 SM-92T. Later they could buy in civil market retired RuAF L-39 trainers for advanced pilot trainings or negotiate with Irkut and Yakovlev to buy kits or to produce Yak-130 multirole trainers in Lugansk plant. If Novorussia will stay unrecignized state, they will have to produce or put together in Novorussia as Russia could not sell combat planes to unrecognized state and in this case Yak-130 will have to be equip with radar. If Russia recognize Novorussia, than arming of Novorussian AF will be far easier, the problem will be only money.

However we look, Novorussia will need to buy those basic trainers first and they are not that expensive (around 500.000 $ per plane), because for any step in this direction, they will need new young pilots and ground crews, who will get their experiences with those planes.

I was thinking about all of this actually recently.

If Novorussia is approximately 5M population, they could do it. Use the repair plant in luhansk and build a parts plant in donensk area (to spread wealth as well as create work in various areas), then work on cheaper planes. Trainers being very important, but eventually, they will succumb to air to air or SAM's. So they will need something. Mind you, I dont know what that would be. I imagine UAV's would be quite important to obtain for them, especially ucav's as it would save a lot of their own men from getting killed. But drones obviously work in areas where there really arnt sams or combatant jets operating as drones against a manned pilot is not going to work. Possibly try and obtain old MiG-21's,23's and 25's that were taken out of service long ago.

Or seek to build their own. But that will cost a lot of money and time, as well they would need experienced engineers. In this case, send personell to schools in Russia to teach them.

sepheronx wrote:I was thinking about all of this actually recently.

If Novorussia is approximately 5M population, they could do it. Use the repair plant in luhansk and build a parts plant in donensk area (to spread wealth as well as create work in various areas), then work on cheaper planes. Trainers being very important, but eventually, they will succumb to air to air or SAM's. So they will need something. Mind you, I dont know what that would be. I imagine UAV's would be quite important to obtain for them, especially ucav's as it would save a lot of their own men from getting killed. But drones obviously work in areas where there really arnt sams or combatant jets operating as drones against a manned pilot is not going to work. Possibly try and obtain old MiG-21's,23's and 25's that were taken out of service long ago.

Or seek to build their own. But that will cost a lot of money and time, as well they would need experienced engineers. In this case, send personell to schools in Russia to teach them.

I agree, combination of MiG-23MLD and MiG-27K could be great combination. They are build in late eighties and retired in Russia in nineties, so they have very few flight hours on them.

it's a waste of time, money, and just a bad idea.

novorussian forces need to be focused on ground operations, and purely rely on AA for defense. Once all is stable, and if the war really ceases, etc... Novorussia needs to focus heavily on 4 level AA defense: artillery, manpads, SPAAG, and SPSAM.

I can see aircrafts in their forces, but that should only be helicopters, for quick response deployment, evasan, and other duties. Of course, utility wing aircrafts and light cargo could be used, but no combat aircraft would be useful.

novo forces until now have succeeded against all odds, using intense guerilla warfare with elite infantry, with intel gathering and artillery dialed in accurately. One can say armour played an important role in the last 5 months.

For the AA defense of the whole territory:

with the already captured and supplied systems, I'd say they need:

artillery: at least 150 AZP S-60, 300 ZU-23, a few ZPU couldn't hurt, according to how much one can find, a healty 100 to 200 to complete the ZU-23, some KS-19 wouldn't be too much, 40 to 60 to protect the most important sites. If the need be, some vintage 85mm M-39 guns could be taken out of depots, but 85mm ammo nowadays is simply too old and not produced...

AZP S-60 is the famous and successful 57mm AA gun, puting them in batteries, with a modern radar (mounted on truck) and competent trained crews, ukraine can say bye bye to any low-slow flying aircraft, like medium military cargo planes, helicopters, attack aircratfs, and even fighter aircrafts are in great danger. This gun can be a lethal threat to any ground unit, so it can work to supress light armour, entrenchements, etc... Novorussia should seek to mount a healthy portions of them on some chassis, I think a few T-55 hulls could be used, but I don't see how novorussia could obtain T-55 hulls in quantity... Unless asking russia. I'd say T-64 hulls, but all T-64 currently on the territory of novorussia should be repaired and used as tanks.

ZU-23 needs no presentation, 23mm, probably the deadliest and most effective short range AA artillery, the more of them, the better, either the gun mount or mounted on trucks, mtlb, btrd, etc... I think novorussia already has a good number of them, but you never have enough ZU-23.

ZPU (usually ZPU-2 or 4) are KPV mounted on a AA mount, it was replaced by ZU-23 in service, but still found in depots, and seing the prevalence of 14.5mm ammo in novorussia, a few ZPU for multipurpose and anti helicopter warfare is not asking too much. Static mounts well hidden, to protect heavier AA guns, and mounted on pickups, UAZ, trucks, etc...

KS-19 is a 100mm gun (using T-55 ammo), working in batteries with radar, it would be a punchier but less agile asset than the AZP S-60. 100mm ammo are found in every depot of former soviet union arsenals, so, useful, and the gun would be a deadly asset to protect key sectors vs ground threats. The 100mm ammo in question is different than the one used in ubiquitous MT-12 smoothbore guns, just in case one didn't know.

the M1939 85mm or 52-k, is a WW2 vintage gun, still used after the war but totally replaced by KS-19 and AZP S-60... I don't know what could be done with them, but a 360° quick firing gun is never a bad thing. Only useful if 85mm ammo can be found.

SPAAG: 50 to 80 SPAAG would be great, most of them should be shilka, but a few dozen could be ZSU-57-2. Tunguska or pantsir missile-gun duo, well, it could be possible, but in very small quantity, russia must give them... And I recall of one tunguska captured in the late summer 2014, no? All mounted AA gun are listed as artillery rather than SPAAG, so i think that's all.

manpads: the more the better, using teams of specialist in highly mobile light trucks, is the solution. I'd say 500 to 1000 IGLA or why not older STRELA are a must have.

SP SAM, already a healthy dose of strela mtlb/brdm captured, a few OSA, and surely a pair of BUK, well, more of those. Russia could deploy 2 S-300 sites, one right at the border of novorussia, so it covers all novorussia, and one in crimea (already done probably) to enlarge the coverage zone.


With such a dense combined air defense net, only US airforce could operate, and only if they are willing to lose up to 50% of what they deploy. Ukraine airforce that was litterally decimated in summer 2014 by a few manpads, would stand 0 chance against combined means, radar of different kinds, and simply so much firepower.

Novorussia having an "airforce" would simply be a reason to lose precious time and money. Let them western smart boys have airforces, let ukraine dilapidate all its non existing money to rebuild its airforce with NATO crafts, and enjoy the firework if those fool dare fly over novorussia. Their precious latest tech F-16 of newest model (which is probably what ukraine will try to buy, or if not, a grippen or the old french mirage 2000 recently replaced by rafale) will stand no better chance than a primitive and robust SU-25 against hard hitting artillery saturating the sky guided by accurate radar data... Or better, let's see how the vaunted A-10 will fare.



novorussia military and defense priorities:

1: strong and competent leadership (more or less already achieved)
2: strong and well equiped mobile infantry, in big number (more or less achieved)
3: knowledge of terrain, defensive positions, in deepth defense lines, control of key roads, crossroads, ability to hold ground and build entranchements (rather good)
4: intelligence units, drones, accurate map data (good but improvable)
5: strong artillery working directly with intel units, to suppress ennemy units and ennemy artillery (more or less achieved)
6: anti-tank means of all kind, RPG, ATGM, mines, artillery included with or without submunitions, less important but still, AT guns. (close to perfection)
7: anti-air means of all kinds (need far more number and a good training, leadership, own branch of the army, etc, but seing how ukraine air force no longer exists, it's ok as it is now)
8: armoured units, tanks, BMP and others, to lead assaults and have the initiative on its side (growing, but already nice)
9: building a large and redundant park of vehicles, trucks, uaz, and why not civilian cars if they are good enough.
10: establishing multilevel repair and maintenance units, depots, and factories, (already good, needs improvement)
11: stockpiling ammunitions, weapons (firearms, AFV guns replacements, etc), establishing routes and procedures for effective supply to the frontlines.
12: same thing with food, military uniforms and gear, etc.
13: professionalizing the army, getting rid of all problematic warlords and simply bandits, punishing those who comitted crimes against the population, getting rid of foreigners like chechens or people having no business in novorussia at all, or either make a sort of very controlled "foreign legion" to control all those who came to fight but can become a problem for the society.
14: building military infrastructure, bases, establish strategic and tactic positions for key assets: command posts, artillery, etc.. Build serious training centers.
15: establish military salaries
16: (should be before 10 in fact), large amount of communication means, probably russian radio stations would be the best bet (old models).
17: uniformisation of insignias, formal creation of brigades who created themselves a name during the war, like somali, etc... Adoption of a uniform, could be based on the cut GORKA (seems pretty much all novorussian fighters either have or want to have one, confortable, ideal battle dress), with a uniformised camouflage pattern... National insignias for all members of armed forces, etc...


and long after numerous other things, you could say "creation of an airforce"...

any data to answer?

I want current number after cease fire and the trophies of debaltsevo

tanks? It seems to me they have close to 200 tanks now, but how many are in working order?

other AFVs, probably 150 to 200 BMP, BTR, etc... ?

artillery... I think it's the biggest asset of novoruss, all combined it must be close to 300 tubes, MLRS, SPG and heavy mortars...

and simply, how many men? 50 000?

Have they been stored properly though... or left in the open.

I would suspect the vast majority of the electronics would need replacing... perhaps with a full electronics upgrade and perhaps even engine upgrade to an Al-31 or similar would make it capable and cheaper and easier to operate and maintain.

they could use it as a model for other countries who don't want expensive, who already have such aircraft in service.

Perhaps a new production MiG-21 with a chin intake to allow for a larger nose radar that is optimised for low cost operations... perhaps a twin engined aircraft with Al-225s developed for jet trainers... a sort of Russian F-20. Light cannon, small PESA radar, modern AAMs to make it potent...

Something that costs $2,000 per flight hour and is simple and cheap to keep operational... I am sure a lot of countries would buy quite a few.

Novorussia need both, air defense and air force. They could easier get air defense equipment with capturing it from Ukrainian army, but with liberating more of territory, it will be more difficult to cover it with air defense only, specially if they have MANPADs and SHORADs only. More liberated territory also bring more space for safe training flights.

Basic civil trainers like Il-103 and SM-92T are quite cheap and they could buy or produce them quite easy as they are not military equipment. They could also buy some civil Ansat helicopters for the same purpose. Point is, they need to start training their new young pilots as soon as possible. We don't know, how many pilots they have inside Novorussian army and they could be used as instructors for young pilots. Of course they could sent pilot cadets to Russian schools, but they need their own capabilities to form their own air force academy, which a state as big as Novorussia need. With young pilots they could create combat squadrons.

They could buy or Russia could donate a squadron of retired L-39 trainers for advanced training, but for a long term they will have to buy or produce by license new Yak-130 trainers.

Talking about light multirole fighter, I think the best solution could be modified Yak-130 trainer, where two small engines are replaced by one RD-33MK engine and to enlarge the nose to install Zhuk-M radar inside. This is one of the best options, as Yak-130 is now in full production with all machinery and tools available, so they could quickly start producing modified version of Yak-130, comparing to any other model, where is no production line available. I doubt that there is any production capability for old MiGs available or capable to restart production, also Yak-130 is a modern design, which could serve well for next 30 years.

I completely agree with cracker -> +1.

It does not make sense for NAF to build a strong air force. Ukrainian one is already nonexistent and the same ground attack capabilities can be fulfilled by artillery for 1/5 the price. For a single Su-34 (a dedicated ground attack aircraft - mind that) they can have 4-5 Sp artillery or MLRS with GPS or laser guidance, if they decide to use old howitzers mounted on trucks then the price will be even lower. Just mount some D-30s on an Ural together with Krasnopol/Krasnopol-M, put an observer next to some nice Ukro base and let the guns rain hell on them.

cracker wrote:As the title says...

any data to answer?

I want current number after cease fire and the trophies of debaltsevo

tanks? It seems to me they have close to 200 tanks now, but how many are in working order?

other AFVs, probably 150 to 200 BMP, BTR, etc... ?

artillery... I think it's the biggest asset of novoruss, all combined it must be close to 300 tubes, MLRS, SPG and heavy mortars...

and simply, how many men? 50 000?

Have not seen any numbers in regards to equipment but generally they have much more then they have trained staff to handle. Thus a major part of their recruitment of Russian volunteers and soldiers when needed. A fact overlooked by many is that major Ukrainian Weapon storage and repair facilities were in Donbas prior to the crisis. The NAF maintaining of equipment viability and restoration has been much superior to the Ukrainian Army.

As for manpower, seems to be between 25 - 35,000. An estimated 10% are Russian volunteers. Present planning was to have 100,000 including reserves. Word is that this was lowered to 75,000.

Read this week that the total is settling around 70,000 with 10,000 as a strategic reserve and 10,000 stationed in towns and cities. That would leave 50,000, past estimates have the NAF no higher then 35,000 so have they recruited enough to field those 6 new brigades that they hoped to form?

From an article comparing the present conditions of the UAF and NAF, here is the section dealing with planned NAF expansion.

Planning of the second summer campaign assumes forming of a large number of new units of the NAF (5-7 new motorized rifle brigades, 2-3 tank battalions, new artillery units). That’s the purpose of large-scale mobilization. Not only will their personnel strength be increased, but their firepower also, by increasing artillery and tank strength. This was made possible by the large amount of captured equipment and Russia’s technical support. Forming and training of new units will end not later than the end of April (or possibly in May). By that time the NAF will be clearly superior to the UAF not only in the technical but also in the numerical sense, and if one considers the passive assistance of the “wind of Boreas” on secondary front sectors, this superiority will be quite perceptible.

Zakharchenko reports today that Donetsk has 23,000 regulars and 30,000 reservist under arms and trained. If the total NAF is in the 70-75,000 range as previously reported, that would mean Lugansk would have 17-22,000 regulars and reservist in their PR.

In my opinion NAF has plenty of men, but it needs better equipment. Needs 1990s arms like AK-74M rifles, 7N22 armor piercing bullets which have black tips, Kornet and Metis M anti tank missiles, night vision and thermal viewers, better communications equipment.

Out of all US politicians, only Obama opposes sending lethal aid to Ukraine. Once Obama is out of office, we can expect US lethal aid to be supplied to Ukraine. At that point, NAF must receive military aid from Russia.

they don't need such irrelevant things as modern assault rifles, old ass AK are sufficient, as long as there are enough of them (i bet 40 000 AK of all kinds are already there, most of them captured from Ukrops, but a large part of second line men have SKS or hunting rifles...), and with ammo.

Russia can (and did, and do, and will continue) send shitloads of surplus AK to them, it's not a problem. Even some AK-74M were seen.

What they need is a motivated and trained force, motivation was here during the hot moments of war, but now, many troops unpaid / uncared for can go crazy and become bandits (already the case)...

What they need is more artillery and tanks, but also, to build a strong multilevel defense with ambush channels (already almost done).

What they need is a shit load of RPG of all sorts, RPG-7 of course, i'd say 15 000 RPG-7 total would be great, with at least 150 000 warheads. RPG-22/26 are useful too, and some 5000 would be great, but i bet they pretty much have this already.

cracker wrote:they don't need such irrelevant things as modern assault rifles, old ass AK are sufficient, as long as there are enough of them (i bet 40 000 AK of all kinds are already there, most of them captured from Ukrops, but a large part of second line men have SKS or hunting rifles...), and with ammo.

Russia can (and did, and do, and will continue) send shitloads of surplus AK to them, it's not a problem. Even some AK-74M were seen.

What they need is a motivated and trained force, motivation was here during the hot moments of war, but now, many troops unpaid / uncared for can go crazy and become bandits (already the case)...

What they need is more artillery and tanks, but also, to build a strong multilevel defense with ambush channels (already almost done).

What they need is a shit load of RPG of all sorts, RPG-7 of course, i'd say 15 000 RPG-7 total would be great, with at least 150 000 warheads. RPG-22/26 are useful too, and some 5000 would be great, but i bet they pretty much have this already.

RPG-7 tandem HEAT is needed to blast ERA tanks. I've seen NAF using HE-FRAG RPG-7 rounds. Haven't seen RPG-29 used yet.

The DPR militia captured and removed nearly 500 pieces of Ukrainian army's equipment in the Debaltsevo pocket after it liberated the city, the DPR Defense Ministry spokesperson Eduard Basurin told journalists today.

“Our engineering units found and removed 471 pieces of military equipment, of which 198 units were in good working order,” – Eduard Basurin said, commenting on Kiev's statements that the Debaltsevo pocket allegedly didn't exist.

In particular, the DPR militia removed from Debaltsevo: 58 tanks (15 operable), 14 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled howitzers (nine operable), 6 D-30 howitzers (all operable), 13 2A65 MSTA-B howitzers (all operable), 3 BM-21 Grad multiple rocket launchers (2 operable).

“All Ukrainian equipment after restoration and rehabilitation will equip our units, and we’ll use those not repairable as a source of spares. There are still significant numbers of Ukrainian weapons and equipment scattered near Debaltsevo, but most of that is actually only useless junk. Some we can use for future mine clearance activities, but all we can do with the rest is to scrap them,” – Eduard Basurin said.

Ukrainian army's military equipment removed by the DPR militia from Debaltsevo:
* tanks (total - 58, operable - 15);
* infantry fighting vehicles (total - 104, operable - 38);
* other IFVs/APCs (total - 37, operable - 12);
* trucks (total - 180, operable - 76);
* special equipment vehicles (total - 28, operable - 9);
* MT-LB vehicles (total - 11, operable - 4);
* 9P148 Konkurs ATGMs (total - 3, operable - 3);
* 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled howitzers (total - 14, operable - 9);
* BM-21 Grad multiple rocket launchers (total - 3, operable - 2);
* ZU 23-2 anti-aircraft guns (total - 6, operable - 4);
* 100-mm anti-tank guns MT-12 Rapira (total - 3, operable - 3);
* 2S9 NONA self-propelled mortar (total - 1, operable - 0);
* 2B9 Vasilek 82-mm gun mortars (total - 2, operable - 2);
* 120-mm PM-38 mortars (total - 2, operable - 2);
* 120-mm D30 howitzers (total - 6, operable - 6);
* 2A65 "MSTA-B" towed howitzers (total - 13, operable - 13).

NOTE: the NAF claim that their AFV repair facilities, on an average, can salvage 1 AFV for every 3 damaged units recovered from the battlefield.

cracker wrote:As the title says...

any data to answer?

I want current number after cease fire and the trophies of debaltsevo

tanks? It seems to me they have close to 200 tanks now, but how many are in working order?

other AFVs, probably 150 to 200 BMP, BTR, etc... ?

artillery... I think it's the biggest asset of novoruss, all combined it must be close to 300 tubes, MLRS, SPG and heavy mortars...

and simply, how many men? 50 000?

The NAF reported that it had removed almost 400 pieces of artillery over 100mm from the front lines.

Donetsk Approves Creation of Armed Forces in Self-Proclaimed Republic

The parliament of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic adopted the Law on Defense, which envisions the creation of regular armed forces from units of armed militia.

DONETSK (Sputnik) — The parliament of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic in eastern Ukraine unanimously adopted on Friday the Law on Defense, which envisions the creation of regular armed forces from units of armed militia.

"Without this law, the defense of the state is impossible, as previously we had only militia. Now, the law clearly stipulates that all armed units become part of the [DPR] Armed Forces," the Donetsk News Agency quoted Dmitry Perepelkin, deputy head of the parliamentary committee on security and defense, as saying.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150515/1022199358.html#ixzz3aEc7DlUn

Anyone know what ammo NAF uses? Ukraine specially Lugansk inherited 7N10 ammo which was developed in 1990 / 1991 and this is the standard service ammo of Russia and Ukraine.

who the f*********k cares about what ammo they use? you think it's important? As long as they have ammo, no matter what type it is, as long as they have a huge stock and are able to sustain logistical chains when it's a full war situation.

To be interested in such microscopic detail has really no sense, 7N6, 7N10, you think if they had 7N24 it would be a dramatic advantage? it changes nothing even if they had 500 alien blaster, for f*ck sake, they need men, good training, heavy weapons, and tons of ammo, they need UAV and arti, tanks, strong leaders.

Flagship Victory wrote:Anyone know what ammo NAF uses? Ukraine specially Lugansk inherited 7N10 ammo which was developed in 1990 / 1991 and this is the standard service ammo of Russia and Ukraine.

Have read that the only Ukrainian plant producing the rounds for the AK is in Lugansk. The UAF have had to go elsewhere to get rounds while the NAF have their own source.

Can anyone identify this gun? Looks to me like AK-74M.

Looks like an AK-74M to me, but could be early AK-74M's. They have been making them since the 90's.

Without being able to see the magazine that could be quite a number of different rifles... I have a Chinese Type 56S AKM clone... if I put the appropriate muzzle device and plastic stock components without seeing the curved 7.62 x 39mm magazines it would look like the rifle in the photo...