Indian Air Force (IAF): News

https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/india-might-scrap-mig-29-fighter-deal

India might scrap MiG-29 fighter deal

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers to cancel the MiG-29 fighter deal with Russia. This month, the MoD started reviewing all foreign defence programmes under the 'Buy Global' category which do not include participation of the Indian industrial military complex.

In June 2020, amid the ongoing row with China in eastern Ladakh, the Bharatiya Vayu Sena (IAF, Indian Air Force) pushed a proposal to the government for acquiring 33 new fighter aircraft. The air force had been working on this plan for some time and had fast-tracked the process and the proposals expected to be worth over USD 800 million to be placed before the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for its final approval at a high-level meeting late June 2020.

The proposal contained the acquisition of 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs from Russia. India and Russia have been negotiating the purchase of these fighters since 2019.

A top-level air force team visited a Russian facility to check the MiG-29 fighters that Russia offered to India to help the IAF to meet its requirement of new fighters. The air force also carried out a study to check if the MiG-29 airframes were good enough for it to operate for a long time and they were reported to be in almost new condition. Russia handed over a commercial offer to deliver the MiG-29s including UPG standard kits.

Although the MiG-29 is familiar with the IAF pilots, the ones offered by the Russians are different from the ones in the Indian inventory. So a possible acquisition of the aircraft might raise questions with the MoD. Back in 2020, Scramble Magazine assessed this acquisition, if ever realised, would take a long discussion.

The Sukhoi Su-30MKIs are not part of the review as they will be procured from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The IAF has three squadrons operating the MiG-29; 47 Squadron Black Archers and 223 Squadron Tridents at Adampur AFS and 28 Squadron First Supersonics at Jamnagar AFS. The latter unit also operates a detachment et Leh AFS.

The only differences would be whatever India initially ordered. That would mean India made the mistake (not surprising).

Russia sells them whatever they order. If the plane has enough differences it may be because: the ones I wants are too old and parts unavailable so new one is made or that they themselves ordered it, noticed the difference is greater than what they already have and didn't realize it.

Wait... what... they are reconsidering buying some MiG-29s as part of a 0.8 billion dollar deal that includes 21 MiGs and half a dozen Su-30s.... but they are considering going back on the deal because the new MiG-29s which they inspected and are practically new are different from the MiG-29s they already have?

Are you kidding me?

They spend 8.4 billion on 36 Rafale fighters that probably don't even have paint type in common with their existing Mirage 2000 fighters or anything else they operate... but spending a small fraction of that money on 31 fighters is in the balance because some of the equipment is different...

And this is an urgent deal to get numbers of Indian fighters up... why are they such hard heads when talking to Russians and such pussies when talking to the French?

GarryB wrote:
And this is an urgent deal to get numbers of Indian fighters up... why are they such hard heads when talking to Russians and such pussies when talking to the French?

Different 'consultancy' schemes?

No, it is that they think Russians can't sell to anyone else but India thus they go into contracts with such mindset.

And Russian doesn't sue them for breaking contracts.

If India does it enough times though, they may be in for a rude awakening.

miketheterrible wrote:No, it is that they think Russians can't sell to anyone else but India thus they go into contracts with such mindset.

And Russian doesn't sue them for breaking contracts.

If India does it enough times though, they may be in for a rude awakening.

This. Indians are being leaned on hard especially since the s400 complex thry are finally recieving. Russia is going to have to hunker down and think longer term. CAATSA is part of an overarching plan to neuter Russia and must n8t be taken lightly. Right now it is important to keep Russian MIC afloat and in the green for potentially a hard few years. Thry also need to be on the offensive and not take abuses from current and former allies looking to take advantage. Be generous to faithful allies and hard on those playing games. I understand the position that nations like India are in but they should not let their alliances to nations like Russia dwindle on the vine. Particularly so when America is controlled by neocons and neolibs that have extremely manipulative plans for developing nations and powers.

I have family in India, I have been there plenty of times.  I have learned from people who are in higher positions of military in the nation (family).

India is a nation filled to the brim, and in high positions of power, 5th columnists.

When every third sign in the country is that of "to study and live in: Australia, UK, Canada, USA, New Zealand, come apply here". It's pathetic and allegiance to India is fractured as is. I'll he surprised if India is even a nation 30 years from now.  Hyderabad was another region wanting to be part of Pakistan at one point. The Muslims run rampant and cause trouble for others. The Sikhs are about the same as well (No farmers no Food nonsense). And the government? Weasles. They will beg to the West but try to act tough to the east.  And in the end, no one takes them seriously.

Russia is willing to sell whatever to India. Pakistan has been begging Russia to sell them weapons but Russia declined due to India. But the more India does this, the more India will face difficulty.

Reason why India initially halted further progress with the west was because USA started breaking contracts with Indi and over extending itself by sailing through Indian waters without permission.  India nearly sold off its sovereignty so they can "face China" which is a joke cause China can run circles around India.

But, many in India are taking Russias kindness for granted. What India may face is isolation to a degree where Russia may not be interested in helping them.

Russias defense industry is once again not reliant on India or anyone else. India tries stating this when they refused to buy Su-57. In the end, Su-57 was made because of Russia. This goes for all russias defense items. Now India doesn't even have a 5th generation jet and is trying to settle on 4th Gen instead when Su-57 was offered.

And honestly? It's good for Russia not to sell to India Su-57. India proven itself unreliable and a good example was when a HAL employee was smuggling Al-31 turbine blades out and exchanging them with sub par parts.  Even now recent defense minister who's helicopter crashed, many in India are suspecting sabotage cause many Khalistani Sikhs in Military, higher command, where celebrating his death.  Having these kind of people handle russias state of the art equipment isn't a good idea.

The rafales are under strict agreements. And the Indians are pissed that none of the agreements were met.  Honestly, they deserved it.

What India is trying to do with the MiGs, is what Algeria did too. They ended up changing their minds, made excuses and demanded the Sukhois instead.

Russia needs to make clear to India that Russia isn't running a charity. And that if India breaks the agreement, they have to pay a penalty. And a new contract must be made if they just want the Sukhois.

GarryB wrote:Are you kidding me?

Governments/individuals make wrong decision.

Take for instance Philippines. Last week instead of purchasing Yakhont they decided to purchase BRAHMOS from India. Brahmos has a modest 200 kgs warhead. Apart from that a Yakhont salvo launch of 4 - has one missile as ‘scout seeker’ flies high to ID the targets, with other 3 at mid-level altitude… all 4 then fly in to hit allocated targets.

BRAHMOS has no such capability. Yet the Philippines are purchasing a substandard missile.

India nearly sold off its sovereignty so they can "face China" which is a joke cause China can run circles around India.

There is nothing worse than having enemies for neighbours... but it takes both sides to work to make it so.
Obviously some neighbours can't be reasoned with.... their hatred is deep and is not going away... say like Russia and Poland or Russia and the Baltic states... but of course situations can change... as the EU gets more perverted they might remember their religious roots... but whatever...

The point is that despite what the US is whispering in Indias ear, China and India don't need to be enemies... it doesn't help India, it doesn't help China... it certainly helps the US to sabotage potential cooperation between the two most populous countries on the planet...

Different 'consultancy' schemes?

Delicious... in fact you could say the Indian government and Indian politicians that decide weapons contracts are not actually corrupt... what they are is they are as flexible, as duplicitious, and as spinnable as the English Language itself....

I remember reading a western book about a defence contract with a country for which Britain and France were competing and the inuendo was that the French product won the competition not on merit (written by the Brit who was certain of the superiority of the product... which of course is up for question), but because he said the French side furnished the deciders with top quality women of questionable virtue who were happy to do anything at all, and the Brits didn't.

Considering this is the Market Russia found itself thrust in to in the 1990s no wonder they didn't do exceptionally well... when the other side will lie and provide that sort of thing to the deciders... I am surprised Russia ever got a look in.

I feel sorry for the military people who had to put up with the crap that was bought for them...

India nearly sold off its sovereignty so they can "face China" which is a joke cause China can run circles around India.

When they should be working together with China, like Russia is now working with China so both sides benefit and grow and develop... it is a much healthier way to steer your country.

The rafales are under strict agreements. And the Indians are pissed that none of the agreements were met. Honestly, they deserved it.

They irony is that India actually wanted to licence produce Mirage 2000s, but France demanded they buy Rafales at an eye watering price. So India held a competition for a 10.4 billion dollar programme to buy 126 fighter aircraft, which they declared the Rafale the winner... but ended up spending 8.4 billion on 36 fighters...

Take for instance Philippines. Last week instead of purchasing Yakhont they decided to purchase BRAHMOS from India. Brahmos has a modest 200 kgs warhead. Apart from that a Yakhont salvo launch of 4 - has one missile as ‘scout seeker’ flies high to ID the targets, with other 3 at mid-level altitude… all 4 then fly in to hit allocated targets.

BRAHMOS has no such capability. Yet the Philippines are purchasing a substandard missile.

Brahmos is based on the Yakhont and should have the same or better capabilities of the original Yakhont, though I suspect Yakhonts would also be upgraded... the first ones were anti ship only... Brahmos added land attack and different attack profiles.

For instance a land target might not have very good air defence... most modern ships had decent long range radar and serious SAM and gun defences, while many ground targets don't have either... flying at 3-5m above the wave tops makes you hard to spot and hard to engage but reduces flight range and top speed... a single missile might climb to 1km altitude to scan for targets and then drop back down and share target information and allocate targets to other missiles in the group but it wont stay up high for long... just long enough to get a radar snapshot of the enemy group of ships.

The enemy ships will detect the radar scan but if they scan to find the target themselves they might catch the single missile or it might have already dropped down below the radar/line of sight horizon to continue in with the other missile in the group... moving at 600m/s... about the speed of a rifle bullet, they will close distance very quickly...

But against some targets flying very high... 25km altitude makes more sense... the flight range of the missiles would be double and the flight speed would be rather faster in the thinner cold air too.... the target might detect them but can't hit targets that high with most of it weapons...

As the missiles approach the target area they might pitch up and climb a little and then dive down vertically on the target... most radar and missiles and even guns can't hit you and you get a gravity assist on the dive at high speed.

The Phillipines probably went for Brahmos because politically it is easier to buy from India than from Russia I suspect... they have to wean themselves off of American weapons, and I am sure the Brahmos will impress them compared with Harpoon.

GarryB wrote:a single missile might climb to 1km altitude to scan for targets and then drop back down and share target information and allocate targets to other missiles in the group but it wont stay up high for long... just long enough to get a radar snapshot of the enemy group of ships.

How do they (missiles) data link at 1000m/s? Coherent lock doppler corrected radios or something else?

Sorry... that reminds me of the old claim that cars would never exceed the speed of about 40 miles an hour... how could you breathe normally at such speeds...

Why do you think a high flight speed would effect a datalink?

These missiles are all flying together in a group so the relative speed between them would be zero... they would be staying together as a group.

If you think a datalink would struggle with a difference in speed how do you think fighter aircraft communicate with ARH they launch and use datalinks to send course corrections to the missile if the target makes a dramatic change in its flightpath so that the target will be within the missiles field of view when it starts to scan for the target.

The lead missile, like the rest of the missiles performing the attack have an idea of where the targets should be and so the group of missiles flys its approach to a position where it should be able to see the target group at a specific altitude... for the Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) which flys low all the way that is a climb to about 300m to look for the target, but other missiles might climb a little more from further away... say 1 or 2 kms and then drop back down to fly with the pack and analyse the radar scan of the target group, identify the targets and allocate targets to the missiles in the group, who will then spread out and attack their allocated target... the carrier might get four or five missiles and other ships perhaps one or two depending on the number of missiles and number of targets.

Of course if Brahmos is fired at a long range target most of the flight will be at medium to high altitude and as it approaches the target one missile will scan while the other missiles drop behind the radar horizon so an alerted enemy could scan and detect only one incoming missile if they are fast enough as it will rapidly drop out of view too.

The missiles will then have targets assigned to them by the lead missile and spread out and attack their allocated targets at very low altitude.

For a less well protected target instead for max speed they might all climb up at operate at high speed and high altitude trying to get above the air defences and then diving on target.

Against a land target it is possible or even likely individual missiles will be used on a specific target.

GarryB wrote:Of course if Brahmos is fired at a long range target most of the flight will be at medium to high altitude and as it approaches the target one missile will scan while the other missiles drop behind the radar horizon so an alerted enemy could scan and detect only one incoming missile if they are fast enough as it will rapidly drop out of view too.

India test fired a new version of the BRAHMOS today. Apparently, this version of the missile has a 700kms + range.

According to defence sources, the missile was equipped with "new technological developments". But they did not clarify what these new technological developments are.

I would guess either enlarged fuel tank, or more energetic fuel or both.

Did they mention a flight speed increase?

Could be new materials that resist higher temperatures for longer or reshaping... of a bit of all of the above.

GarryB wrote:Did they mention a flight speed increase?

No they haven't stated what the flight speed was during the test. Simply described it as supersonic.

GarryB wrote:The lead missile, like the rest of the missiles performing the attack have an idea of where the targets should be and so the group of missiles flys its approach to a position where it should be able to see the target group at a specific altitude... for the Moskit (SS-N-22 Sunburn) which flys low all the way that is a climb to about 300m to look for the target, but other missiles might climb a little more from further away... say 1 or 2 kms and then drop back down to fly with the pack and analyse the radar scan of the target group, identify the targets and allocate targets to the missiles in the group, who will then spread out and attack their allocated target... the carrier might get four or five missiles and other ships perhaps one or two depending on the number of missiles and number of targets.

Does this description hold true for land attack BRAHMOS missiles as well? In other words BRAHMOS missiles launched not from a ship but from a land based mobile launcher.

They will be the same missile, so in theory yes.

It would only be needed in the case of attacking a lot of targets together on land with serious air defence capacity, which could perhaps happen when say you are attacking an airfield for example.

Some of the missiles will be targeting aircraft shelters, while one might be directed at the control tower and one at the main radar at the site, but if there is a SAM battery there too they might group up to overwhelm its ability to shoot down enough targets in time... so a group of missiles is launched several tens of minutes before the main strike.... the first missiles will fly low all the way to the target area to avoid being detected or shot down, and will overwhelm the main SAM system at the target airfield.

It would actually be a good idea to launch the next volley of missile to fly high and fast so just before the first volley appear on radar... about 15-20km from the target... the second volley should come in to range of the SAMs long range search radar... but outside the range of the missiles of course... the SAM will be alerted by the high altitude incoming missiles and will be alerting the defences but the missile it is focussing on will be above 20km altitude and moving at mach 2.5 plus... they might not notice 12km away a group of other missiles approaching at 10m altitudes at mach 2 homing in on the radar signals from the SAM battery... by the time they realise what is happening the search and tracking radars could be taken out, with the second volley of missiles using its radar to find the hardened aircraft shelters, main base radar, control tower and SAM missiles on their launchers... which can't run away in the available time...

If the target is just an ammo dump and there is no SAM defence a single missile diving from altitude might be sufficient to take it out on its own... or perhaps a US general well known for fighting ISIS could be murdered in cold blood.... you know the drill...

Indian government has released an RFI for 250 Long Range Satellite navigation system Guided Missile.

After years of investing in GPS jam proof missiles India is back to SATNAV.

Seems to be an Indian version of JASSM-ER.

Two years for first delivered example, and all 250 weapons delivered over the following 2 years, from Indian vendors presumably all made in India.

So the weapon that wins this contract has to be made in India and in production in India within 2 years... suggests they have very specific already developed weapons in mind they want Indian vendors to licence produce in India... and having them all delivered by 2028 is a very tight schedule for an Indian contract...

It is a supersonic weapon... could this be the Brahmos II or Brahmos-M they have been talking about?

Or perhaps it is an American weapon they will licence produce... but I am skeptical of this.

Interesting that since my post above about using Brahmos against bunker like targets that Russia has used Onyx in exactly this way in the Ukraine successfully.

Interesting the RFI does not mention the satellite navigation system to be used...

GarryB wrote:So the weapon that wins this contract has to be made in India and in production in India within 2 years... suggests they have very specific already developed weapons in mind they want Indian vendors to licence produce in India... and having them all delivered by 2028 is a very tight schedule for an Indian contract...

DRDO has been asked to develop a few missiles. This is another one. This missile named Glidefire will be a ballistic missile. It will be a Hypersonic glide vehicle with hybrid propulsion

To fit in their vertical launchers it would need to be Brahmos sized and considering the Brahmos hybrid propulsion system of rocket and ramjet is proven the hypersonic requirement suggests they want to upgrade the ramjet to a scramjet...

Being a ship launched ballistic missile it would not belong in this thread really.

GarryB wrote:Being a ship launched ballistic missile it would not belong in this thread really.

Yes of course, this is not the correct thread. If I had the privilege to shift posts to another thread I would have done that.

Just that we were discussing about indigenous missiles so I posted it here.

Interesting that India chose a ship launched Ballistic missile when BRAHMOS, the ship based cruise missile already exists.

Ship launched Ballistic missiles do not provide any advantage over ship launched cruise missile.

I suspect the only difference between this new missile and Brahmos is the flight speed... which mentions hypersonic glide vehicle.

The Brahmos fits the capacity of its launcher so whatever replaces it will need to be similar in size or they will need new launchers which means every ship you want to use it will also need new launch tubes... which would be a pain in the backside.

I suspect this new missile will be Brahmos II and will be for India what Zircon is for Russia... a replacement hypersonic missile that fits in the same tubes as the missiles it replaces (ie Onyx for Russia and Brahmos for India).

The only other likely option is that they have a solid rocket IRBM from a land based system they want to place hypersonic gliders on top of and take to sea...

A new scramjet powered Brahmos makes more sense to me and has all the advantages that Zircon has... can be fitted to existing launch tubes which can continue to use other missile types as well as needed, and size and shape are not much different from the previous missile but flight performance it much much better.

GarryB wrote:I suspect the only difference between this new missile and Brahmos is the flight speed...  which mentions hypersonic glide vehicle.

The Brahmos fits the capacity of its launcher so whatever replaces it will need to be similar in size or they will need new launchers which means every ship you want to use it will also need new launch tubes... which would be a pain in the backside.

I suspect this new missile will be Brahmos II and will be for India what Zircon is for Russia... a replacement hypersonic missile that fits in the same tubes as the missiles it replaces (ie Onyx for Russia and Brahmos for India).

The only other likely option is that they have a solid rocket IRBM from a land based system they want to place hypersonic gliders on top of and take to sea...

A new scramjet powered Brahmos makes more sense to me and has all the advantages that Zircon has... can be fitted to existing launch tubes which can continue to use other missile types as well as needed, and size and shape are not much different from the previous missile but flight performance it much much better.

China recently test fired a similar ship based ballistic missile called YJ-21. The footage, shows a cold-launched (possibly two-stage) missile, implying an ant-ship ballistic missile with HGV. The new missile outwardly resembles the CM-401 design, with the addition of a large booster phase. The CM-401 is roughly analogous to the Iskander missile although its diameter is only 600mm

The size of the control surfaces being small meaning it is not an anti air missile????

Really????

The Standard SAM used by the US Navy is a two stage SAM, and the S-300F used by the Soviet and Russian Navy only has the relatively small tail mounted control fins too... when the missile is flying very fast and is intended for long range use then lots of control surfaces just introduce drag.

Having lots of control surfaces on a very very fast missile is a waste of time and energy.... a very very fast missile can't make 90 degree turns no matter how big the "wing surface" is... but a large wing surface will certainly massively reduce the potential top speed of any missile because of drag.

I would guess that this is actually a very long range SAM and is an evolution of the Standard range of US missiles, probably with features and capabilities of Russian/Soviet S-300 missile types added to make it better.