PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

jhelb wrote:

Vann7 wrote:
Any plane of helicopter civilian or military can be integrated configured into S-400 network if desired and allow Russian ground defenses to see low flying objects flying under the radar signature. is a question more about if they need it to do it or not. than if possible.

Russia could benefit from things like this.. for local military bases . USA operate this radars.

to see low flying things beyond military bases radars horizon. And AWAC or drones can do the same.. but cost/performance of an aerostat is better.

Thanks Vann, my vote.

I realize it can be done, in fact the Soviet Union had done some remarkable work on what NATO calls Integrated Air and Missile Defense Battle Command System.

My question is has this already been achieved in Russia? For example in the S 400 thread I was asking if the TEL of the S 400 can take cues  from AWACS,JSTARS and fire the missiles in case the supporting systems(radars) of the S 400 are destroyed.

You get the picture, right?

Absolutely yes..
That is not rocket science.. is just antenna deployed in the right places to cover any potential
theater of combat that Russia could have. Satellite TV is a like a civilian version of the system you ask. As long you maintain a line of sight communication (not blocked by mountains) or curvature of earth ,then you can have a Air/Land/Sea missile battle command system ,that NATO so much talk about and so Russia have too. The issue here had to be because in the 90s
Russia was bankrupt and lost most of its satellites in space and that lasted for near 20 years.
Satellites are like AWACS that transmit information across very long distances like continents.
But those times are over ,Russia have a full network of satellites since 2011 AGAIN as early soviets had ,and they can send images to Russia in moscow from a plane flying in Africa or portugal. In the Syrian war for example Russian satellites could detect the exact place from where the launch or the chemical attack on Syria Damascus came and the exact time it happened. that is like 5,000km away. Russia could also detect an Israel launch of a ballistic missile towards Syria withing minutes they did it ,Russia reported it.  



So yes thats the whole purpose of AWACS to be the eyes of Russian Airforce ,Ground defenses and NAvy from things that are beyond their horizon. When Russia lost its satellites (they need to be replaced every x or y years for new ones) then Russia lost its view beyond Russian borders far from it. but on a local level Russia never lost an integrated command communication with radar integration.  Is not rocket science. Any nation can have their radar defenses integrated with AWACS.. you simply could take the radar from an S-400 and mount it on a plane and it will communicate with ground radars what it see. Russia have an integrated network of communication in no way inferior to the NATO one. i will say is even better because Russia can jam their Satellites their awacs (at least Russia claim that) and NATO have yet to proof can jam Russian ones.

Here Russia command center is not displaying still images on their screens.. but LIVE realtime images from all Russia armed forces Air ,Ground and Sea connected ,including S-400 ,S-300 and iskander connected ,smerch ,submarines and drones too.



anything with a radar is connected with Moscow and all radars can receive that information
to expand their view beyond their horizon.That information can be used as targeting for S-400s or any other system.  Even live TV is connected in Russia command center
so can talk to any general in the world ,any soldier and see what they see. Look at Syrian war.
Moscow can receive radars images from planes flying over Syria on real time.
there whenever Russia see a need for that. it can't be better than this. In the conflict of Syria ,Russian warships who have S-300s and Russian satellites  becomes the eyes of Syrian army on the coast but also RUssian radars on caucasus can see Syria airspace at high altitude using their land radars in RUssia,or low altitude using the Russian airforce flying over Syria.so information for Syria army radars that can use for targeting.  As good it can get. it is .  IS a Global Radar if you like to call it with camera view and any thing that have a radar or antenna ,planes ,drones, warships ,submarines is connected whenever they think it can be useful to do it.  The way i see it is more an Organization ,than a technology feature. But it require technology , since not all nations have satellites or AWACS and modern Radars. NATO have it , Russia too.. India in a limited way and CHina too ,they still do not have full network of navigation radars around the world but they can use the ones they have in combination with the Russian one and have full cover ,still however is not enough because Russian satellites are position to look more at Russia territory and neighboring countries..or any zone their warships will operate. The China sea and Indian sea are not zones that Russia needs to cover. so this means that there are empty spots that Russian radars do not look in the world.. the same is true for NATo.. for example their satellites do not see over the south pole or artic. Why Russia likes the artic so much ,that allows them to launch missiles over there with more confidence that NATO cover of that area from space is very weak.

In Short Russia have a very comparable system than NATO integrated global communications that they so much brag about..but with a much more prettier ,modern and organized center.
And Apparently Russia can create blind spots on NATO system ,through the use of electronic warfare they claim and the same company have said is working on a new system to blind NATO satellites too.

here is a Russian AWACS

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/0/4/1703401.jpg

here how far Russian radars on land can see (for high flying planes or missiles).. ie.. 10,000km



https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/13/russian-radars-started-active-combat-duty-in-2014/

Russian main radars are Voronezh land stations . They cover all Europe
airspace at high altitude and as far as Africa. and all Asia. All that information is connected
to any warship or combat plane or land defense system like s-400s. Awacs and combat planes and drones expand that view to low flying objects but also enemy radars too locations.
However is not all perfect. Russia early launch warning system of ballistic missiles launched from America are not operating today. But they will be in the next couple of years. This helps to increase the early detection of ICBM launches from US territory by up to 50% more time in some cases. But is not a major biggie ,such system can only be needed in case of a total nuclear war with US. that is very unlikely to ever happen.

Berkut wrote:N036B was fitted to T-50-5 and it is fitted to -5R, nothing new.

Where did you get this information? In his summer article PiBu says the following:

As of February, Tikhomirov NIIP had produced seven N036 radars in reduced configuration with single front antennas only; two are in bench tests and five are fitted to the prototypes, starting from T-50-3.
The second test batch aircraft are to be completed with radars with three X-band arrays (NIIP says four X-band side arrays are ready).

Does anyone have any info about the T/R Modules used on the N036?  Only info I can find is Carl Kopp (whom is apparently not good info) and they are apparent 10W modules.  But goes on to say they are from Istok and same ones used on Zhuk-AE radar, but I find that hard to believe.

Notio wrote:

Berkut wrote:N036B was fitted to T-50-5 and it is fitted to -5R, nothing new.

Where did you get this information? In his summer article PiBu says the following:

As of February, Tikhomirov NIIP had produced seven N036 radars in reduced configuration with single front antennas only; two are in bench tests and five are fitted to the prototypes, starting from T-50-3.
The second test batch aircraft are to be completed with radars with three X-band arrays (NIIP says four X-band side arrays are ready).

A worker on LIS station saw it personally being fitted into T-50-5 frame.

http://www.aviaport.ru/conferences/22343/227.html#p272205

I am sure Belov commented about it being fitted to -5 at some point too. -8 will be the first one with L-band slat radar (for IFF).

T/R's on N036/N036B are about 15W not 10W. Discussion from here and onwards;

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126959-The-PAK-FA-News-Pics-amp-Debate-Thread-XXIV&p=2243540#post2243540

Thank you.

Take Off Mag

AESA for T-50 ( pg 30 ) , Tactical Missile Page 26

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to34.pdf

Austin wrote:Take Off Mag

AESA for T-50 ( pg 30 ) , Tactical Missile Page 26

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to34.pdf

Awesome!

Thanks man.  I am constantly searching about the AESA radars and not getting much info.

Edit: Interesting they are advertising motor-sitch which is all undergoing anti Russian sentiments and Russia cannot purchase through them anymore, and is having to produce locally.

Important info:

How many AESAs have been manufactured
to date?

The first two forward-looking AESAs are in bench tests – one at the chief designer’s bench in our institute and the other in the Sukhoi design bureau. They are used for testing sophisticated operating modes and introducing design and software improvements. Two AESAs are flying onboard the third and fourth T-50 flying prototypes. The fifth flying prototype started its trials in Komsomolsk-on-Amur
following a repair. It is equipped with our AESA too. The sixth array has passed its preliminary lab tests both independently and as part of a radar and will commence its interdepartmental ground tests at Tikhomirov-NIIP soon. Another AESA has been mounted on the sixth flying prototype expected to join the trials before year-end. The aircraft will carry a complete set of our AESAs – the forward- and side-looking X-band ones as well as wingmounted L-band sets. Two more arrays are The key feature of the PAK FA Future Tactical Fighter, as the T-50 fifthgeneration fighter being developed by Sukhoi is known, is its integrated multifunction radar system wrapped around active electronically scanned arrays (AESA). The radar system is designed for a wide range of tasks, such as seeking for and acquiring aerial and ground targets, supporting the use of weapons, navigating, mapping, jamming, etc. The AESA radar is being developed by V. Tikhomirov Scientific-Research Institute of Instrument Design (Tikhomirov-NIIP), the Russian leader in the development of phased-array radar systems for aircraft and army air defence systems. The developer has demonstrated prototype AESAs developed for the PAK FA at previous MAKS air shows. The work on them has made considerable progress since then. Take-off met with Tikhomirov-NIIP Director General Yuri Bely and asked him to describe the trials of the AESA radar on Russian fifth-generation fighter and the results achieved. AESA for T-50: trials are success Yuri Bely on latest products from Tikhomirov-NIIP about to leave the assembly shop, one being bench-tested and the other being assembled. The Ryazan State Instrument-making Enterprise (GRPZ) is making two more.

and

How will your AESA radars evolve?
It is an open secret that our institute has been appointed prime contractor for the AESA radar system designed to fit the Future Long-Range Bomber (Russian acronym PAK DA).

It is interesting to note that according to Tikhomirov's Director General Yuri Bely Su-35S's Irbis shows better capability at least on maximum detection distance than N036, which is basically AESA version of Irbis.

Director General wrote:our Irbis radar may well be regarded as a kind of summit in the evolution of traditional phased arrays: it is second to none in the world as far as its potential and aerial target acquisition range (over 400 km) are concerned. Recently, we have prepared materials to show how the AESA’s capabilities can be increased close enough to those of the Irbis.

This seems to run counter to some believes about radar technology, for example Hornetfinn from F-16.net who claims to have a background in the field of radar technology thought that even power-wise weaker AESA's should show better detection performance than Irbis, because they would have lower transmission and receiving losses:

Hornetfinn wrote:AESA radars have much better range compared to other radar systems as they have much smaller transmission and receiving losses. For example if both AESA and PESA/MSA radar have the transmitter power of 10kW, then the actual transmitted power (in the radar beam) in the AESA radar will be about twice the power in PESA/MSA radar. This is because the transmitter is in the antenna with very little in between in AESA radar. In PESA/MSA radar the transmitter itself is in the back end of the radar and there is a lot more lossy equipment in between it and the antenna. AESA also enjoys similar advantage in receiving the radar signals as the receiving element Low Noise Amplifier is again in the antenna (in T/R modules).

Hornetfinn wrote:Similarly I'd expect the AESA for PAK-FA offer much improved capabilities to Irbis-E radar, even though it will most likely have lower T/R module count and lower power than APG-81. For example if Russians use the same modules they use for Zhuk-AE (not likely), then the PAK-FA radar should be able to detect 3 m^2 target at somewhat longer ranges than current Irbis-E (using similar search areas), even though it would be significantly lower powered system. This is because AESA radars have much lower transmission and receive losses than MSA or PESA radars. Theoretically AESA radar can be 5-6 times less powerful with the same antenna area to have equal range performance to MSA or PESA radar. Or it can have about 50-60 percent longer range with equal power and antenna size. This is one reason why AESA radars are coming so strongly at the moment.

I recall my father who actually worked on radar specifically stated how AESA caused nothing  but issues when they replaced PESA systems up in the Dew Lines (he set them up and configured them).  And he stated they were quite unreliable at the time.  Things did change over time, but he didn't have much nice things to say about AESA and sticks by his statement today (though admits things do change over time and could have gotten a whole lot better, and he is simply stating from his experience).

We barely have much info on N036 and the loser is speculating.  If he has evidence of his times working with radar, he better post it or he is simply a fraud (who am I kidding? it's the internet afterall...).

Edit: As well, their statement of T/R modules for The Zhuk-A radar are questionable.  Old statements are 5W each module but newer statements are 10W each.  Apparently the T/R Modules for N036 are 15W each.  Add to that, there is a of work ongoing to making them smaller and more efficient on what Berkut and Jo were posting over at keypub.

With all that said, The detection/tracking range of the Irbis-E is indeed second to none.  It has apparently same or better performance than the proposed AESA radar for Rafale and Typhoon.  But those may be better at ECM and EW.  But subsystems can fix that.

http://ria.ru/interview/20151112/1319135062.html

- Tell us, please, what the opportunity to acquire the aircraft of the fifth generation PAK FA with the latest electronic systems KRET?

- KRET already talked about the features of complex EW "Himalaya" and strapdown inertial navigation system (SINS) installed on the PAK FA. Now we want to draw attention to a new radar, which is designed for the PAK FA. This radar has several ranges of work and will work not only in the forward hemisphere - it will also be a number of opportunities for the circular scan, so that the pilot has complete information about a radar environment to without taking action on the maneuvering could see what was happening on the left, right, back in the automatic mode with the projection on the helmet and interactive glass cockpit.

According to their purpose PAK FA aircraft does not just apply to the aircraft of the fifth generation - it embodied a fundamentally new ideas. That is, it is one hundred percent digital aircraft that not only provides information to the pilot on request, but also provides full information support for the pilot - for this aircraft is equipped with a "smart skin". By "smart skin" we understand that many of the surface of the aircraft are versatile antenna systems that provide the application of the integrated use of all resources of the aircraft. First of all we are talking about the fact that a complex radar system can function, and means of passive intelligence and means of active radar and electronic warfare specialist.

For example, a complex electronic warfare "Himalayas" at certain points in space to protect the use of radar energy resource. All this is done to ensure that the aircraft had an opportunity to review the circular space in passive and active modes, was able to provide absolute protection and round to communication and control systems, electronic warfare aircraft covered all radii. That's how it complexed possibilities of different electronic systems, making the aircraft the most secure and invulnerable. Communication systems can also be used in protected mode - to form the transmission of information is not round, but only in the direction of the points to which he has to lose one or the other flight information, get a job or other information values. This is done by including features to maximize the use of weapons by aircraft, to maximize opportunities of electronic security. We can say that the PAK FA everything works in the general contour of the digital control system of the aircraft and to provide maximum comfort and a maximum degree of control for the pilots.

- Whether to begin deliveries to the Armed Forces of the first batch of special containers through which the Su-34 aircraft converted into electronic warfare?

- The first batch will be delivered in November this year. On the wingtips of the Su-34 basic kit is installed EW multifunctional complex "Khibiny-10B". This year, the Defense Ministry will receive the first batch of installed under the fuselage of the so-called container incremental staff, to turn the standard Su-34 dedicated aircraft electronic warfare, which will be able to protect not only themselves, but also to provide an effective electronic countermeasures radar systems and anti-aircraft missile systems, long-range aircraft radar surveillance, and so on, that is the protection of aircraft and other groups.

Thus, the Su-34 will be able not only combat aircraft but also a special plane of electronic warfare.

George1 , I appreciate your effort writing this article but I think you can do much better , writing things like

While recently constructed prototypes have been equipped with advanced avionics, reports indicate that the T-50’s electronic components are likely to be upgraded further before serial production begins. The need for continued work on avionic equipment and engines means that the initial production run of the aircraft will retain fourth-generation characteristics and will be comparable to earlier US F-16/18s. The Russian air force will therefore not have a complete fifth-generation fighter until 2020 at the earliest.

does not agur well and shows lack of basic understanding about the system.

But if your editor is happy bashing Russia and I understand that sometimes it beyond the writer control then its a good article for Western MSM

My mistake George , I appologise , Its a very poorly written article lacking basic elementary knowledge

It means indian version is going to be delayed. IAF has rightly asked for the 4 squardons of T50 version before that. Changes in airframe and engine wi; take time and can be done later on

@George this below is wrt to western analysts not you mate


"
Given Russian officials’ track record of hiding problems and exaggerating the capabilities of new technology, it is possible, perhaps likely, that the T-50’s performance may not match expectations.
"



Sure because flying only in dry weather or breaking neck of ejecting pilot is just minor problem not a design flaw.




"In early June, a series of high profile crashes involving Russian military planes led to Moscow grounding the Tu-95 ‘Bear’ bomber fleet. Additionally, on June 4, a Su-34 strike fighter crashed near Voronezh and a MiG-29 crashed near the Caspian. Military leadership is hoping that the air force’s reliance on old systems will be solved by two new programmes: the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA and the PAK–DA bomber.
"

So 6 F-22 and 7 F-35 crashes is not a problem just Su-34 is a disaster! I can see US

Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda in Washington DC is working fine

Funny that T-50 can not live up to the expectations of "exageratted" capabilities but the F-35 that was and is still hyped to be the worlds best thing in everything can't do jack shit not even 3rd generation aircrafts.

Werewolf wrote:Funny that T-50 can not live up to the expectations of "exageratted" capabilities but the F-35 that was and is still hyped to be the worlds best thing in everything can't do jack shit not even 3rd generation aircrafts.

Yap, it was truly over-hyped, here are some reminders of just how hyped up things were.

Lots of LOLs.

George1 wrote:

Austin wrote:George1 , I appreciate your effort writing this article but I think you can do much better , writing things like

While recently constructed prototypes have been equipped with advanced avionics, reports indicate that the T-50’s electronic components are likely to be upgraded further before serial production begins. The need for continued work on avionic equipment and engines means that the initial production run of the aircraft will retain fourth-generation characteristics and will be comparable to earlier US F-16/18s. The Russian air force will therefore not have a complete fifth-generation fighter until 2020 at the earliest.

does not agur well and shows lack of basic understanding about the system.

But if your editor is happy bashing Russia and I understand that sometimes it beyond the writer control then its a good article for Western MSM

the article is from this site: https://russiamil.wordpress.com/
I didnt write it myself

Is actually good always to know what the western trolls are saying about Russia.
That editor works for an american NGO and is paid for propaganda.. But is always interesting
to see what they say.. sometimes they give some interesting information..from conferences
he visit of NATO and US imperialism ,what they say...but most times his information is bad..
Still thanks for the info.. i visit that place at times to see what the other side claims. but
i agree with others this article "comparisons " between US and RUssia in stealth planes is the worse ever article he have done..by far. looks more like pure comedy.. his article is definitively at the level of F16.net infantile discussions fill with non sense...

First flight with the new engines pushed back to 2018.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/novye_razrabotki/do_2018_goda_otlozhen_pervyy_polet_pak_fa_s_dvigatelem_vtorogo_etapa_/

T-50-0 and -7.

Berkut wrote:T-50-0 and -7.

Will production model also have S Duct.

It is not a S-intake. Just a normal intake with small bends on both axes, but that has been clear for ever now. And no, it wont change to the production ones either. It will have a special radar blocker, the PChN's are also part of the stealth design.

Did some digging, found some more stuff re the Moscow Sukhoi bureau visit on 26/11. Tiny pics from UAC;

http://uacrussia.ru/ru/press-center/mediagallery/?photo=7230

RG pics;

http://www.rg.ru/2015/11/26/avia-site-anons.html#/13699_b0c664dd/1/

TASS, most of these are available in higher res in a later link;

http://tass.ru/ekonomika/2474034

Video here; http://vm.ru/news/2015/11/26/sergej-sobyanin-aviastroenie-odna-iz-prioritetnih-otraslej-promishlennosti-moskvi-304308.html

Also confirms my bet that the Su-27 thingy with P-42 nose is a ejection seat testbed, it is called Su-35-L07. Also confirms that T-50-0 is being worked on and it will be continuing testing despite T-50-7. Very surprising as i assumed it got kicked out and was the fuselage next to the famous Su-47 from this year. That fuselage must be then T-50-5's. Obviously -0 is getting -5's wings and atleast one intake fitted, probably other bits and pieces. More;

https://www.mos.ru/pulse/news/3770073

And finally a nice gallery including several T-50-7 pics, available in fairly high res;

https://www.mos.ru/press/media/photo/4718057

And finally video, mostly talking;

https://www.mos.ru/press/media/video/4719057