The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

Flagship Victory wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Neutrality wrote:I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.

No it wasn't. Donbas resistance deserves more credit than they are given. Afterall, Ukraine inherited huge piles of Soviet arms, and so did Donbas. If Russian regular troops were involved, Kiev would have fallen, not just Illovaisk.

Exactly. People here are clinging to hopes and possibilities. but are not seeing what is happening. Kiev still goes ahead and kills people, donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment, and Kiev foaming at mouth anti Russian stance allows them to kill innocense around the country with impunity, and they get to survive longer to do that, by getting cheap gas from Russia, as well as Russia not demanding their money back. So effectively, Russia is aiding kiev in their murders like US is.

I suppose Putin cannot openly use the Russian army to destroy Novorossiya because Russia's right wing folks are quite powerful. LDPR and even Just Russia are very supportive of Novorossiya. Putin can only hope that Ukraine armed with US weapons can destroy Novorossiya. The US and the EU sanction Russia, Putin simply stands there and takes the blows and not fight back by sanctioning the US and the EU. The US lies that, for the sanctions on Russia to go away, Novorossiya must be dstroyed as a condition, but after that, not only is Novorossiya destroyed, US sanctions on Russia will remain and even expand. The US already lied about not expanding NATO to Russia's border. Putin would be a fool to believe the US's words.

I don't believe that Putin actually wants that Novorossiya is defeated. It would not benefit Putin at all, only harm him. Putin has no financial stake on the defeat of Novorossiya, and his popularity among the Russians would probably dive if Novorossiya is allowed to be defeated since Novorossiyan cause is very popular among common Russians.

My guess is that Putin is simply afraid to act. He fears that the risks of more action in Donbass outweight the benefits. In my opinion he is thinking too much about the economy and too little about geopolitics, security and helping ethnic Russians in trouble.

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Neutrality wrote:I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.

No it wasn't. Donbas resistance deserves more credit than they are given. Afterall, Ukraine inherited huge piles of Soviet arms, and so did Donbas. If Russian regular troops were involved, Kiev would have fallen, not just Illovaisk.

Exactly. People here are clinging to hopes and possibilities. but are not seeing what is happening. Kiev still goes ahead and kills people, donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment, and Kiev foaming at mouth anti Russian stance allows them to kill innocense around the country with impunity, and they get to survive longer to do that, by getting cheap gas from Russia, as well as Russia not demanding their money back. So effectively, Russia is aiding kiev in their murders like US is.

I suppose Putin cannot openly use the Russian army to destroy Novorossiya because Russia's right wing folks are quite powerful. LDPR and even Just Russia are very supportive of Novorossiya. Putin can only hope that Ukraine armed with US weapons can destroy Novorossiya. The US and the EU sanction Russia, Putin simply stands there and takes the blows and not fight back by sanctioning the US and the EU. The US lies that, for the sanctions on Russia to go away, Novorossiya must be dstroyed as a condition, but after that, not only is Novorossiya destroyed, US sanctions on Russia will remain and even expand. The US already lied about not expanding NATO to Russia's border. Putin would be a fool to believe the US's words.

I don't believe that Putin actually wants that Novorossiya is defeated. It would not benefit Putin at all, only harm him. Putin has no financial stake on the defeat of Novorossiya, and his popularity among the Russians would probably dive if Novorossiya is allowed to be defeated since Novorossiyan cause is very popular among common Russians.

My guess is that Putin is simply afraid to act. He fears that the risks of more action in Donbass outweight the benefits. In my opinion he is thinking too much about the economy and too little about geopolitics, security and helping ethnic Russians in trouble.

BINGO!

The coward is more afraid for his and his cronies pockets.  They are afraid of a printed currency that is meaningless.

I used to be a big fan of Putin, but I hate him now more than ever.  Simply because of all these events proved that he is a coward and that he is willing to throw his own people and people who request his assistance, in the fire, for a measly billion or two.

BTW, Karl, thanks for bringing up the cheap coal transfers to Ukraine as well. Forgot about that. People see that! Putin is also selling cheap coal to keep Ukraine going. I guess that is his master plan? Keeping the country afloat so it can kill its own citizens even more?

IMO Putin thinks Novorossiya is a liability because it brings US and EU sanctions on Russia. In retaliation, Putin has never directed any sanction besides a 1 year food ban on EU. IMO Putin wants calmness hoping the US and EU would then lift sanctions. So IMO Putin does not want Novorossiya's existence. Thousands of civilians killed in Donbas. Putin didn't even say a word. Minsk 2 does nothing but stop Donbas from fighting back and taking back lost lands. IMO we would have to wait till 2018 election before Russia can provide aid to Novorossiya by the next president. Just Russia, LDPR, even Communist party are all supportive of Novorossiya whereas Putin is not.

Flagship Victory wrote:IMO Putin thinks Novorossiya is a liability because it brings US and EU sanctions on Russia. In retaliation, Putin has never directed any sanction besides a 1 year food ban on EU. IMO Putin wants calmness hoping the US and EU would then lift sanctions. So IMO Putin does not want Novorossiya's existence.

Well, he will be in for a rude awakening.  Those sanctions are not going to disappear and US is looking to expand them.  All the while, Russia will end up having a huge army at its borders, larger than they have anywhere else, and this army is itching to start the third world war.

I imagine he will fold, or at least try to before someone in his own clique decide to get rid of him before he does.

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:IMO Putin thinks Novorossiya is a liability because it brings US and EU sanctions on Russia. In retaliation, Putin has never directed any sanction besides a 1 year food ban on EU. IMO Putin wants calmness hoping the US and EU would then lift sanctions. So IMO Putin does not want Novorossiya's existence.

Well, he will be in for a rude awakening.  Those sanctions are not going to disappear and US is looking to expand them.  All the while, Russia will end up having a huge army at its borders, larger than they have anywhere else, and this army is itching to start the third world war.

I imagine he will fold, or at least try to before someone in his own clique decide to get rid of him before he does.

Exactly. The US wants to split up Russia into tiny little pieces like what it did to Yugoslavia. Putin is too naive to believe Novorossiya is the cause of US and EU sanctions on Russia.

Flagship Victory wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:IMO Putin thinks Novorossiya is a liability because it brings US and EU sanctions on Russia. In retaliation, Putin has never directed any sanction besides a 1 year food ban on EU. IMO Putin wants calmness hoping the US and EU would then lift sanctions. So IMO Putin does not want Novorossiya's existence.

Well, he will be in for a rude awakening.  Those sanctions are not going to disappear and US is looking to expand them.  All the while, Russia will end up having a huge army at its borders, larger than they have anywhere else, and this army is itching to start the third world war.

I imagine he will fold, or at least try to before someone in his own clique decide to get rid of him before he does.

Exactly. The US wants to split up Russia into tiny little piecesl like what it did to Yugoslavia. Putin is too naive to believe Novorossiya is the cause of US and EU sanctions on Russia.

Maybe he is, I dunno.  But you are right, they want to split Russia up, and it has been documented that they want this.  Putin is a real idiot for allowing this to happen RIGHT AT HIS BORDER!

This makes my blood boil for sure.  He isn't something that Russia deserves.  They deserve a lot better than that.  Even that drunken, incompetent fool Yeltsin had more balls, even if it was horrifically executed.

Anyway, if he wants respect back, he needs to properly act. If I start to hear and see US military tanks, bases and what not appearing in Ukraine and Russia still does nothing, then I would have lost all hope and would be willing to join anti Putin protests.

sepheronx wrote:Maybe he is, I dunno.  But you are right, they want to split Russia up, and it has been documented that they want this.  Putin is a real idiot for allowing this to happen RIGHT AT HIS BORDER!

This makes my blood boil for sure.  He isn't something that Russia deserves.  They deserve a lot better than that.  Even that drunken, incompetent fool Yeltsin had more balls.

Remember how right after Maidan Putin was in a rage and started referring to the putch regime as a coup, fascist. By this year in his annual interview he referred to the putch regime as legitimate, that Maidan was all about Ukrainians fed up with corruption. Uh nope, Yanukovych was not corruption, and Maidan was not about fighting corruption. Maidan was a CIA project to put US military bases in Ukraine, specifically in Donbas and Kharkov. Putin did nothing throughout Maidan. Putin did nothing to stop genocide in Donbas. Putin even helps the putch regime fight Novorossiya.

sepheronx wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Neutrality wrote:I think the annihilation of the Ukrainians near Illovaisk was the proper Russian response for that move.

No it wasn't. Donbas resistance deserves more credit than they are given. Afterall, Ukraine inherited huge piles of Soviet arms, and so did Donbas. If Russian regular troops were involved, Kiev would have fallen, not just Illovaisk.

Exactly. People here are clinging to hopes and possibilities. but are not seeing what is happening. Kiev still goes ahead and kills people, donbass in dire need of assistance in goods/equipment, and Kiev foaming at mouth anti Russian stance allows them to kill innocense around the country with impunity, and they get to survive longer to do that, by getting cheap gas from Russia, as well as Russia not demanding their money back. So effectively, Russia is aiding kiev in their murders like US is.

I suppose Putin cannot openly use the Russian army to destroy Novorossiya because Russia's right wing folks are quite powerful. LDPR and even Just Russia are very supportive of Novorossiya. Putin can only hope that Ukraine armed with US weapons can destroy Novorossiya. The US and the EU sanction Russia, Putin simply stands there and takes the blows and not fight back by sanctioning the US and the EU. The US lies that, for the sanctions on Russia to go away, Novorossiya must be dstroyed as a condition, but after that, not only is Novorossiya destroyed, US sanctions on Russia will remain and even expand. The US already lied about not expanding NATO to Russia's border. Putin would be a fool to believe the US's words.

I don't believe that Putin actually wants that Novorossiya is defeated. It would not benefit Putin at all, only harm him. Putin has no financial stake on the defeat of Novorossiya, and his popularity among the Russians would probably dive if Novorossiya is allowed to be defeated since Novorossiyan cause is very popular among common Russians.

My guess is that Putin is simply afraid to act. He fears that the risks of more action in Donbass outweight the benefits. In my opinion he is thinking too much about the economy and too little about geopolitics, security and helping ethnic Russians in trouble.

BINGO!

The coward is more afraid for his and his cronies pockets.  They are afraid of a printed currency that is meaningless.

I used to be a big fan of Putin, but I hate him now more than ever.  Simply because of all these events proved that he is a coward and that he is willing to throw his own people and people who request his assistance, in the fire, for a measly billion or two.

BTW, Karl, thanks for bringing up the cheap coal transfers to Ukraine as well.  Forgot about that.  People see that!  Putin is also selling cheap coal to keep Ukraine going.  I guess that is his master plan?  Keeping the country afloat so it can kill its own citizens even more?

LOL, oh wow. Neutrality excepted, you guys are so far off on this. It just makes me glad that seasoned and rational professionals are at the helm in the Kremlin rather than some posting board guys (myself included).

If the direction you're arguing was implemented now, Russia would be deep in the sh*t and bleeding out fighting another counterinsurgency.

And Strelkov running a viable political opposition to Putin? You are out of your minds. I admire Strelkov, but it ain't happening. Nor would it be good even if it were. Putin will win another term if he wants it. If he doesn't, then to whomever he passes the proverbial torch will win the next election. If that disturbs you, it's best that you start getting mentally prepared for it now, because Putin's national popularity is, has been, and will surely remain ridiculously high.

Putin has high popularity? For what? For putting Russia under serious international sanction? For having US troops in a former friendly state right next door? I wouldn't rule out Putin handing Crimea to Ukraine if it means ending Western sanctions, oh, BTW, which the US would lie about ending and then saying oops I lied again just like when the US lied about it would not expand NATO to Russia's border.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/03/20/russia-warns-against-us-army-convoy-advance.html

sephernox help me understand a thing. You call up on every Russian to wake up and realize what's happening on their soil. You hold Putin accountable for what's happening on Russia's doorstep. Please tell me why you're not so hard for the people of Eastern Ukraine, who up to this day allow the atrocities to happen in their country. Why do Russians living in Russia have to be more concerned about Ukraine than the people of Ukraine themselves?

In all honesty dude, I am terribly disappointed in you. You always seemed as a calculated person in your replies. I've been reading your posts long before I decided to join on MP.net. I'm shocked at these unintelligent and emotional outbursts that you're writing.

Unlike Flagship and Sepheronx I'm not willing to give up on Putin yet. I just find his inaction in Donbass frustrating, but in general his reign has been good for Russia (economically, demographically and even militarily). So far Putin has more pluses than minuses in my books.

But if (and that is a big IF) Putin allows Novorossiya to be defeated I will change my opinion about him. If Novorossiya faces military collapse then Russia should enter the war directly. If Putin fails to do that, then he has betrayed his country.

Neutrality wrote:sephernox help me understand a thing. You call up on every Russian to wake up and realize what's happening on their soil. You hold Putin accountable for what's happening on Russia's doorstep. Please tell me why you're not so hard for the people of Eastern Ukraine, who up to this day allow the atrocities to happen in their country. Why do Russians living in Russia be more concerned about Ukraine than the people of Ukraine themselves?

In all honesty dude, I am terribly disappointed in you. You always seemed as a calculated person in your replies. I've been reading your posts long before I decided to join on MP.net. I'm shocked at these unintelligent and emotional outbursts that you're writing.

How can unarmed civilians fight against Maidanists armed with tanks, ballistic missiles, artillery? Already, nearly 10,000 civilians have sacrified their lives. In UN terms, this can already be classified as a genocide. The people of Donbas have been brave enough and they have sacrificed a lot. Putin left them high and dry. If you think you are so tough, why don't you go fight Ukraine's National Guard which was formed from Maidanists?   It's easy to talk the talk. It's not so easy to walk the walk.

Why should Russians care about the people of Donbas, you say? Because they are ethnically Russian. Do you see Hezbollah sitting on their bums while the Shias of Syria get butchered by US armed terrorists? No you don't. If Hezbollah can do it, why can't Russians do it? Russians are way more powerful than Hezbollah.

BTW, Ukraine and Russia are so closely interconnected that, once the US is done with Ukraine, who do you think will be next? Russia. It would be Maidan in Russia. Navalny would split Russia into tiny little pieces like what happend to Yugoslavia.

Flagship Victory wrote:
How can unarmed civilians fight against Maidanists armed with tanks, ballistic missiles, artillery? Already, nearly 10,000 civilians have sacrified their lives. In UN terms, this can already be classified as a genocide. The people of Donbas have been brave enough and they have sacrificed a lot. Putin left them high and dry. If you think you are so tough, why don't you go try fight Ukraine's National Guard which was formed from Maidanists?   It's easy to talk the talk. It's not so easy to walk the walk.

Why should Russians care about the people of Donbas, you say? Because they are ethnically Russian. Do you see Hezbollah sitting on their bums while the Shias of Syria get butchered by US armed terrorists? No you don't. If Hezbollah can do it, why can't Russians do it? Russians are way more powerful than Hezbollah.

What a load of bullshit from you again. Donetsk and Lugansk rose against those very same Maidanists armed with tanks, ballistic missiles and artillery perfectly fine. They have alot to endure but they managed to do it. There's nothing stopping Kharkiv, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and Kherson to pull off the exact same scenario. Watch Kiev shit a brick and back down as soon as the oblasts I mentioned, rise against Kiev. There's no way any Western MSM could ignore such an event. If Poroshenko even dares to use the army against them, he'll go down in history as a mass murderer like Pol Pot or worse. If the same shit ever happens in this country and I mean a similar scenario, I won't hesitate.

I didn't say "why Russians should care about the people of Donbass", stop putting words in my mouth. I said why should Russians care more about Ukraine when the Ukrainians themselves don't care what happens to their homeland.

Neutrality wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:
How can unarmed civilians fight against Maidanists armed with tanks, ballistic missiles, artillery? Already, nearly 10,000 civilians have sacrified their lives. In UN terms, this can already be classified as a genocide. The people of Donbas have been brave enough and they have sacrificed a lot. Putin left them high and dry. If you think you are so tough, why don't you go try fight Ukraine's National Guard which was formed from Maidanists?   It's easy to talk the talk. It's not so easy to walk the walk.

Why should Russians care about the people of Donbas, you say? Because they are ethnically Russian. Do you see Hezbollah sitting on their bums while the Shias of Syria get butchered by US armed terrorists? No you don't. If Hezbollah can do it, why can't Russians do it? Russians are way more powerful than Hezbollah.

What a load of bullshit from you again. Donetsk and Lugansk rose against those very same Maidanists armed with tanks, ballistic missiles and artillery perfectly fine. They have alot to endure but they managed to do it. There's nothing stopping Kharkiv, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and Kherson to pull off the exact same scenario. Watch Kiev shit a brick and back down as soon as the oblasts I mentioned, rise against Kiev. There's no way any Western MSM could ignore such an event. If Poroshenko even dares to use the army against them, he'll go down in history as a mass murderer like Pol Pot or worse. If the same shit ever happens in this country and I mean a similar scenario, I won't hesitate.

I didn't say "why Russians should care about the people of Donbass", stop putting words in my mouth. I said why should Russians care more about Ukraine when the Ukrainians themselves don't care what happens to their homeland.

Perfectly fine? I suppose the Rwandan genocide was perfectly fine to you. I suppose it's perfectly fine to you that the putch regime smashes Lenin statues and makes people worship Bandera? I suppose it's perfectly fine to you that the putch regime murders journalists, politicians, bans political parties who don't agree with their views?

Flagship Victory wrote:Perfectly fine? I suppose the Rwandan genocide was perfectly fine to you.

Oh I see, what's going on. I guess I did fall for your trolling. Congratulations, you won.

Neutrality wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:Perfectly fine? I suppose the Rwandan genocide was perfectly fine to you.

Oh I see, what's going on. I guess I did fall for your trolling. Congratulations, you won.

You know what? The putch regime wants the people of Donbas to hate Russia, to put US military bases in Donbas. I suppose it's perfectly fine to you that the people of Donbas are not allowed to have a say. Ooooooh, it's all perfectly fine.

Ukrainians using cluster shells on Shirokino. War crime. War crime. War crime.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-454-russian-special-forces-soldiers-captured-in-schastye/

Neutrality wrote:sephernox help me understand a thing. You call up on every Russian to wake up and realize what's happening on their soil. You hold Putin accountable for what's happening on Russia's doorstep. Please tell me why you're not so hard for the people of Eastern Ukraine, who up to this day allow the atrocities to happen in their country. Why do Russians living in Russia have to be more concerned about Ukraine than the people of Ukraine themselves?

In all honesty dude, I am terribly disappointed in you. You always seemed as a calculated person in your replies. I've been reading your posts long before I decided to join on MP.net. I'm shocked at these unintelligent and emotional outbursts that you're writing.

Because I disagree with you people about Putin and how I see he is doing squat, compared to everyone else claiming he is doing things behind the scenes, makes me unintelligent and miscalculated? Eastern Ukraine is doing something about it, hence the Donetsk and Lugansk regions being their own territory. They are fighting off a regime who is funded by US while these guys are getting scraps. But they have asked for help to Russia initially and got nothing while Crimea got it all. As a Ukrainian ethnic myself, I find it sad and very much a betrayal. Add to that, Putin has shown support to Kiev by giving cheap gas, over looked the stealing of gas and not demand compensation, sold it cheap coal, and has not called in the $3B debts early since Kiev broke the agreements held on it. Add to this, he allowed civillians in his own territory to be killed By another nations army and did nothing about it. No retalitory strike. All of this points out to me a different story than what many here think. This shows to me he has gotten cold feet over the sanctions and is more worried about the supposed 2-3% gdp drop this year and potential growth next year, and wants it all to go back to way it was before.

One must understand, that if you show weakness, people will take advantage of that. Putin has shown weakness on Ukraine affair, and after Ukraine, US will attempt further.

Another thing I see is that he has not gone after NGO's within his own country as some of them openly refused to register properly, that is breaking the law. Yet, they still opperate freely in Russia, no one arrested Or the NGO not kicked out. And they have enough evidence that where money is coming from and going to. They know all of this and doing nothing (was said in media). Even Venezuela reduced US embassy to a couple of people and started kicking out the foreign NGO's causing problems. Putin has not, at all, except USAid. So why just one NGO, when many others are doing the same as USAid and even worst, breaking the law.

I have my beliefes, and something tells me he is being paid off or someone is threatening him.

Anyone know where the DPR defense minister Kononov is these days? Kononov is the secessor of Strelkov. Kononov was setting up DPR's arms industry a while back because once Putin closes that border per Minsk 2 nothing will get into Novorossiya from Russia. NAF needs to be able to manufacture their own artillery and guns until 2018 when Putin supposedly loses election.

also

sepheronx wrote:

kvs wrote:

Erk wrote:

sepheronx wrote:No, when you cant pay your bills, you get cut off. So effectively, Ukraine should have been cut off, but instead, Russia allowed contract to be overwritten and they now sell it at a discount. That is keeping kiev alive. Debt was supposed to be dealt with last year, and this year, Ukraine went past debt agreement on how much debt they can collect from IMF, which of course kiev broke and Russia once again did not call in the debt.

Russia have cut off gas to Ukraine several times, last year is was for something like 5months until they finally coughed up some money.

This is western media BS.   In both 2006 and 2009 it was the Yuschenko regime that cut off flow.   Gazprom had an independent Swiss
firm monitoring the meters and valves on the Russian side of the border.   But the western media chorus bleated "blackmail" over and
over.

As for recently, Ukraine was getting "reverse" flow of Gazprom's gas via Poland and Slovakia and it was Ukraine that decided to "live
without Russian gas".   So at no stage did Gazprom ever cut off Ukraine's supply.

Exactly.

And let me take back a comment I made early about Victory Nuland.  She shouldn't be allowed to meet anyone, only an executioner.  That B!*** deserves to be executed for horrific manslaughter.  The fact that politicians get away with something I would not be able to, sickens me to the extreme.  That whore deserves nothing better.  That and John Baird added in.  They should be held accountable for those 6K + deaths in Ukraine.

Believe me I feel your pain. I want to see the whole lot of them swinging from piano wire.

But in order to impose justice one has to have enough power. Unfortunately, at the moment Russia is lacking in power.
It is recovering every year, but not soon enough. However, the good thing is that NATO is rotting and in 10 years we
will see a different world.

Flagship Victory wrote:Anyone know where the DPR defense minister Kononov is these days? Kononov is the secessor of Strelkov. Kononov was setting up DPR's arms industry a while back because once Putin closes that border per Minsk 2 nothing will get into Novorossiya from Russia. NAF needs to be able to manufacture their own artillery and guns until 2018 when Putin supposedly loses election.

All I remember reading was that they are using some old repair plants in Donetsk and Lugansk as means to assemble working machines from old machines and war booty, and to maybe manufacture some light weapons and artillery.  But have not heard anything since.

At this point, the only thing they can expect from Putin and Co are aid in terms of financial, medicine, food, blankets/clothing, etc.  Which is good as it is.  But they will definitely need weapons.  Thank god that Lugansk at least manufactures ammunition, they could improve it to manufacture things like artillery ammunition and the likes.  As for others, they will definitely need milling equipment, and some sort of small chemical plant for production of explosive substances in order to make the ammunition (which I suppose they would already have if they make ammo and other submunitions).

Right now is the time for them to re-arm, and start building up their capabilities, cause they are going to be semi alone.  Hopefully they get enough in terms of donation money so they can afford to buy/smuggle or anything equipment needed to start manufacturing processes.  My understanding is, during a conflict, the black market thrives, and I wonder if they would be able to gain access to such equipment from such sources or from smuggling from Russia?

One can hope.

Edit: As well, apparently Kadyrov and Chechnya as whole sent 150 tons of supplies to Novorussia: http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/05/chechnya-delivers-150-tons-of.html

I would say it is a VERY good gesture from Kadyrov. Good on him.

kvs wrote:

Erk wrote:

sepheronx wrote:No, when you cant pay your bills, you get cut off. So effectively, Ukraine should have been cut off, but instead, Russia allowed contract to be overwritten and they now sell it at a discount. That is keeping kiev alive. Debt was supposed to be dealt with last year, and this year, Ukraine went past debt agreement on how much debt they can collect from IMF, which of course kiev broke and Russia once again did not call in the debt.

Russia have cut off gas to Ukraine several times, last year is was for something like 5months until they finally coughed up some money.

This is western media BS.   In both 2006 and 2009 it was the Yuschenko regime that cut off flow.   Gazprom had an independent Swiss
firm monitoring the meters and valves on the Russian side of the border.   But the western media chorus bleated "blackmail" over and
over.

As for recently, Ukraine was getting "reverse" flow of Gazprom's gas via Poland and Slovakia and it was Ukraine that decided to "live
without Russian gas".   So at no stage did Gazprom ever cut off Ukraine's supply.

Russia has turned off gas supplies through Ukraine twice, in the winters of 2006 and 2009, after Kiev was late paying. Halting natural gas supplies not only hurt Ukraine, but also squeezed European neighbors, as prices shot up and millions of European homes were left without heat. Both periods lasted about three weeks.

http://rt.com/business/165328-russia-turn-off-gas/ RT must be one of those western media BS outlets too I guess by your logic.

Neutrality wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:Perfectly fine? I suppose the Rwandan genocide was perfectly fine to you.

Oh I see, what's going on. I guess I did fall for your trolling. Congratulations, you won.

There's as many "Putin haters" here as there was on another forum.

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:Anyone know where the DPR defense minister Kononov is these days? Kononov is the secessor of Strelkov. Kononov was setting up DPR's arms industry a while back because once Putin closes that border per Minsk 2 nothing will get into Novorossiya from Russia. NAF needs to be able to manufacture their own artillery and guns until 2018 when Putin supposedly loses election.

All I remember reading was that they are using some old repair plants in Donetsk and Lugansk as means to assemble working machines from old machines and war booty, and to maybe manufacture some light weapons and artillery.  But have not heard anything since.

At this point, the only thing they can expect from Putin and Co are aid in terms of financial, medicine, food, blankets/clothing, etc.  Which is good as it is.  But they will definitely need weapons.  Thank god that Lugansk at least manufactures ammunition, they could improve it to manufacture things like artillery ammunition and the likes.  As for others, they will definitely need milling equipment, and some sort of small chemical plant for production of explosive substances in order to make the ammunition (which I suppose they would already have if they make ammo and other submunitions).

Right now is the time for them to re-arm, and start building up their capabilities, cause they are going to be semi alone.  Hopefully they get enough in terms of donation money so they can afford to buy/smuggle or anything equipment needed to start manufacturing processes.  My understanding is, during a conflict, the black market thrives, and I wonder if they would be able to gain access to such equipment from such sources or from smuggling from Russia?

One can hope.

Edit: As well, apparently Kadyrov and Chechnya as whole sent 150 tons of supplies to Novorussia: http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/05/chechnya-delivers-150-tons-of.html

I would say it is a VERY good gesture from Kadyrov.  Good on him.

Smuggling from Russia would be tough, but not impossible. If NAF manages to smuggle a Metis M or a Kornet from Russia, then they should be able to reverse engineer it. ATGMs are not that complex.

Also, tell you what, if Ukraine wants to erase its Soviet past, then for gs, stop using Soviet arms like AK-74, T-64, PKM, Su-27, MiG-29, Su-25, Su-24, Mi-24, Smerch, Uragan, Grads, RPG-7, SPG-9, Konkurs and Fagot ATGMs, BMPs and BTRs, MSTA-S, 82 mm and 120 mm Soviet mortars, 122 mm and 152 mm Soviet artillery, etc. etc. etc.

I told you so, Nuland is up to no good in Moscow. She going to PROMISE Putin to betray Nosovorssiya in exchange for dropping sanctions. We all know she lies and the US will never drop sanctions even if Putin betrays Novorossiya. Nuland was in Kiev just before heading to Moscow, which means she and Poroshenko must have came up with this plan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/world/europe/american-envoy-to-hold-talks-with-russians-on-peace-deal-for-ukraine.html?_r=0

You know what else? The US is blantantly arming and training National Guard who are thugs who set fire to police officers, who beat and shot police officers. Putin should never allow someone like Kerry or Nuland to set foot in Russia for even 1 second.

Hopefully, Putin is smart enough to not fall for this trick.

Flagship Victory wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:Anyone know where the DPR defense minister Kononov is these days? Kononov is the secessor of Strelkov. Kononov was setting up DPR's arms industry a while back because once Putin closes that border per Minsk 2 nothing will get into Novorossiya from Russia. NAF needs to be able to manufacture their own artillery and guns until 2018 when Putin supposedly loses election.

All I remember reading was that they are using some old repair plants in Donetsk and Lugansk as means to assemble working machines from old machines and war booty, and to maybe manufacture some light weapons and artillery.  But have not heard anything since.

At this point, the only thing they can expect from Putin and Co are aid in terms of financial, medicine, food, blankets/clothing, etc.  Which is good as it is.  But they will definitely need weapons.  Thank god that Lugansk at least manufactures ammunition, they could improve it to manufacture things like artillery ammunition and the likes.  As for others, they will definitely need milling equipment, and some sort of small chemical plant for production of explosive substances in order to make the ammunition (which I suppose they would already have if they make ammo and other submunitions).

Right now is the time for them to re-arm, and start building up their capabilities, cause they are going to be semi alone.  Hopefully they get enough in terms of donation money so they can afford to buy/smuggle or anything equipment needed to start manufacturing processes.  My understanding is, during a conflict, the black market thrives, and I wonder if they would be able to gain access to such equipment from such sources or from smuggling from Russia?

One can hope.

Edit: As well, apparently Kadyrov and Chechnya as whole sent 150 tons of supplies to Novorussia: http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/05/chechnya-delivers-150-tons-of.html

I would say it is a VERY good gesture from Kadyrov.  Good on him.

Smuggling from Russia would be tough, but not impossible. If NAF manages to smuggle a Metis M or a Kornet from Russia, then they should be able to reverse engineer it. ATGMs are not that complex.

Also, tell you what, if Ukraine wants to erase its Soviet past, then for gs, stop using Soviet arms like AK-74, T-64, PKM, Su-27, MiG-29, Su-25, Su-24, Smerch, Uragan, Grads, RPG-7, SPG-9, Konkurs and Fagot ATGMs, BMPs and BTRs, MSTA-S, 82 mm and 120 mm Soviet mortars, 122 mm and 152 mm Soviet artillery, etc. etc. etc.

I told you so, Nuland is up to no good in Moscow. She going to PROMISE Putin to betray Nosovorssiya in exchange for dropping sanctions. We all know she lies and the US will never drop sanctions even if Putin betrays Novorossiya. Nuland was in Kiev just before heading to Moscow, which means she and Poroshenko must have came up with this plan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/world/europe/american-envoy-to-hold-talks-with-russians-on-peace-deal-for-ukraine.html?_r=0

Well, they already have plenty ATGM's and other systems they could reverse engineer, and I imagine something like RPG-29 is far easier to reverse engineer than a Metis.  Since Metis would require some sort of Thermal or optical system to go with it.  RPG 29 not so much.

That said, the article you posted is nothing surprising. They have plenty of times tried to negotiate a cease fire, minsk agreements and what not.  But I Doubt they will get through entirely.  Last time, they were told no more supply aid from Russia to Donetsk/Lugansk, and was all deemed "Invasions" but those aid supplies kept going.  I think Putin may not want to arm the separatists but I doubt he wants to stop aid supplies to the people, cause that would make him very hated in his own country and that is something he doesn't want.  He is enjoying high popularity right now, and if he stops the aid needed, he will lose out.  Subjected to international inspection?  OSCE is international and they already inspect the goods.  So I imagine the Russian president will simply say "we are already having international inspectors view it and they deem it fine, no need for any more, or have some of your guys there to inspect it with OSCE"  and "we will keep sending humanitarian supplies if you like it or not".

I too think Victoria Nuland and Kerry should not be allowed to enter Russia or at least Victoria Nuland should be arrested on sight for being part of assisting in the massacres happening in Ukraine.  But maybe they could get a good laugh at her. Maybe demand from her that if they want Minsk 2 agreements to work, that they remove their troops from Ukraine as it already goes against the Minsk 2 agreements.