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It is Ukraine and it is also Russia. Things...happen.
It is Ukraine and it is also Russia. Things...happen.
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Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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How the Media Spins Story of Russian Soldiers In Ukraine
Attempts to prove the presence of Russian soldiers in Ukraine are reaching surreal levels.
The Russian liberal opposition has released a report to that effect, which it seems was largely prepared by the murdered Russian liberal politician Boris Nemtsov before his death.
Reuters has also published a dispatch under the incendiary title Special Report - Russian soldiers quit over Ukraine, to essentially the same effect.
Before discussing these reports a point needs to be made.
No one including the Russian government denies there are people from Russia fighting with the militias in the Donbass.
What the Russian government says is that these are not serving soldiers sent to fight there by the Russian government. Rather, they are volunteers who have gone there to fight of their own will.
The Russian government admits some of these volunteers are serving soldiers in the Russian army. However it says they have gone to fight there during their leave (a by no means absurd idea, despite the derision this claim has met from some western commentators).
What the Ukrainian and Western governments by contrast say, and what the Nemtsov Report and the Reuters dispatch set out to prove, is that the people from Russia fighting with the militias in the Donbass are not volunteers at all, but are serving Russian soldiers, sent to fight there by the Russian government.
Do the Nemtsov Report and the Reuters dispatch prove that what the Ukrainian and Western governments say is right, and what the Russian government says is wrong?
The short answer is no.
The Nemtsov Report has been ably deconstructed by RT’s Anissa Naouai, whose points I shall follow.
Briefly:
The report claims Russian soldiers have been ordered to resign from the army in order to preserve “deniability” if they are killed or captured.
The source turns out to be a story in a Russian newspaper (Kommersant) and information supposedly given to Nemtsov by various citizens’ groups. No names or details that could substantiate this claim are provided.
Ordering soldiers to resign so as to preserve deniability anyway hardly seems like a good idea. The moment soldiers resign they cease to be under military discipline and are no longer subject to orders. It seems unlikely a military would send soldiers into battle that way.
Frankly it seems far more likely the soldiers who have resigned from the army to go and fight in the Donbass are volunteers. What the report proposes looks like the sort of idea civilians like Nemtsov (who do not know the military well) might come up with, rather than being the sort of thing actual militaries do.
The report says 150 Russian soldiers were killed in the Donbass in 2014 and 70 were killed in 2015. No source is cited. A claim 17 paratroopers from Ivanovo were killed turns out to originate in a note Nemtsov scribbled to himself.
The report says Russia has spent 53 billion roubles (around $1 billion) on the war.
No source is given. It turns out this figure is nothing more than a guess based on the calculations of the authors.
Anissa Naouai says the balance of the report consists of stories culled from the news media and from social media. This has also been admitted by the BBC: “Most of the report is based on facts that have already appeared in Russian and foreign media during a year of conflict in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.”
What of the Reuters dispatch? It turns out to be no better.
Though the dispatch purports to provide proof of the presence of Russian soldiers in the Donbass, and of their growing disaffection with the war, in the end it all boils down to a single interview with a single individual who says he was a soldier serving with the famous Kantemirovskaya division when he resigned rather be sent to Ukraine.
This person claims that he did actually fight in the Donbass as a tank driver in the summer of 2014, but that he resigned from the division with 13 other soldiers when ordered to do so again during the winter.
He gives contradictory reasons for his refusal. At one point he says the war in Ukraine has nothing to do with him and that he does not feel he should be sent to fight there in a non official capacity. At another point however he says he and his comrades resigned because they were not given the medals and benefits they were promised
Reuters says this individual was one of five soldiers who contacted Reuters out of group of 14 who resigned. However all the quotes in the dispatch come from this one individual. If the other four said anything to Reuters, then Reuters is not reporting it.
Reuters says it knows this individual’s name and details. However it refuses to disclose his identity in order to protect him from reprisals.
Since this individual has done nothing illegal by talking to Reuters, it is not obvious what reprisals he has to fear. Given that Reuters says he was one of 14 soldiers who resigned from the Kantemirovksaya division rather than be sent to Ukraine, it would be very easy for the Russian authorities to identify him, and they surely have already done so by now.
Frankly, the refusal to disclose this person’s identity looks more like an excuse to shield him from further questions because of doubts about his story.
Regardless of that, since we know nothing about this person, his story is impossible to corroborate or verify, and cannot be taken seriously.
On the basis of his account, as Reuters provides it, he comes across as a rather aggrieved individual, annoyed because he did not get the medals and benefits he believes he is entitled to for fighting in the Donbass in the summer.
That points if anything to him being a volunteer.
The rest of the dispatch turns out to be simply padding.
We learn of official records of nine soldiers (not 14) who resigned from the Kantemirovskaya division in December supposedly because they did not want to go and fight in Ukraine as they were ordered to.
Reuters however admits none of the documentation connected to these resignations mentions Ukraine. Reuters was able to contact three of these soldiers. All refused to give interviews.
An operator of a Grad missile system claims to have been involved in an exercise in the Rostov Region during which he had to remove identifying marks and insignia from his uniform. Supposedly he resigned in March with some of his comrades because of fears he might be sent to Ukraine.
Rostov Region however is in Russia. It is clear from his account he was never in Ukraine and that he was never asked or ordered to go there.
Reuters says this person “fears” rockets he launched during the exercise “may have hit” targets in Ukraine. He speaks of rumours of other artillery units crossing into Ukraine.
This mix of gossip, imagination and hearsay, is evidence of nothing.
Reuters says it was told by an activist called Krivenko that soldiers had been pressured to go to the Donbass by bribes and threats of dismissal from the army, disguised as “resignation”. This is yet another, this time rather different, take on the “resignation” phenomenon. Regardless, Reuters admits it cannot verify his claims.
Reuters says some Buryat soldiers from Siberia have been seen in the Donbass. The militia admits their presence but claims they are volunteers. Reuters contacted the mother of one of these soldiers. She however “declined to say whether he had been ordered to go or had volunteered” to go.
That’s it.
We at Russia Insider make no claim to know the complete truth of this matter.
We are sure the Russian military is present in the Donbass in some form. We do not believe it is there in anything like the numbers the Ukrainian government and some Western officials say. We say this is a civil war and that the great majority of those fighting in the Donbass are Ukrainians.
Recently Der Spiegel published a story that says the German intelligence agency the BND is of the same view (see our discussion of the conflicting intelligence assessments in Ukraine Conflict Has Strained US-German Relations, Russia Insider, 9th March 2015)
What we do not however do is pretend our guesses are facts. Nor do we try to substantiate our guesses by passing off unverified gossip and speculation as evidence that makes them facts.
What is amazing to us is how easily parts of the Western media do that very thing.
The Nemtsov report is now being widely cited and treated as “proof” of what the Ukrainians and some Western governments and officials say about the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine. The BBC, despite admitting that the report is largely based “on facts that have already appeared in Russian and foreign media” still says it makes a “compelling case”. As we have seen, it does nothing of the sort.
The Reuters dispatch has been republished, for example by Business Insider and Moscow Times, and is being treated as an authoritative report on the subject, though reading it with a critical eye quickly exposes its many obvious flaws.
When it comes to the Ukrainian conflict, or indeed to any subject that concerns Russia, it is clear that facts matter little to some people. Certainly they must not be allowed to get in the way of the story.
Reuters got debunked cargoboy . Western media caught with their blatant lies again . as i said earlier
http://russia-insider.com/en/media-criticism/how-media-spins-story-russian-soldiers-ukraine/ri6919
Attempts to prove the presence of Russian soldiers in Ukraine are reaching surreal levels.
The Russian liberal opposition has released a report to that effect, which it seems was largely prepared by the murdered Russian liberal politician Boris Nemtsov before his death.
Reuters has also published a dispatch under the incendiary title Special Report - Russian soldiers quit over Ukraine, to essentially the same effect.
Before discussing these reports a point needs to be made.
No one including the Russian government denies there are people from Russia fighting with the militias in the Donbass.
What the Russian government says is that these are not serving soldiers sent to fight there by the Russian government. Rather, they are volunteers who have gone there to fight of their own will.
The Russian government admits some of these volunteers are serving soldiers in the Russian army. However it says they have gone to fight there during their leave (a by no means absurd idea, despite the derision this claim has met from some western commentators).
What the Ukrainian and Western governments by contrast say, and what the Nemtsov Report and the Reuters dispatch set out to prove, is that the people from Russia fighting with the militias in the Donbass are not volunteers at all, but are serving Russian soldiers, sent to fight there by the Russian government.
Do the Nemtsov Report and the Reuters dispatch prove that what the Ukrainian and Western governments say is right, and what the Russian government says is wrong?
The short answer is no.
The Nemtsov Report has been ably deconstructed by RT’s Anissa Naouai, whose points I shall follow.
Briefly:
The report claims Russian soldiers have been ordered to resign from the army in order to preserve “deniability” if they are killed or captured.
The source turns out to be a story in a Russian newspaper (Kommersant) and information supposedly given to Nemtsov by various citizens’ groups. No names or details that could substantiate this claim are provided.
Ordering soldiers to resign so as to preserve deniability anyway hardly seems like a good idea. The moment soldiers resign they cease to be under military discipline and are no longer subject to orders. It seems unlikely a military would send soldiers into battle that way.
Frankly it seems far more likely the soldiers who have resigned from the army to go and fight in the Donbass are volunteers. What the report proposes looks like the sort of idea civilians like Nemtsov (who do not know the military well) might come up with, rather than being the sort of thing actual militaries do.
The report says 150 Russian soldiers were killed in the Donbass in 2014 and 70 were killed in 2015. No source is cited. A claim 17 paratroopers from Ivanovo were killed turns out to originate in a note Nemtsov scribbled to himself.
The report says Russia has spent 53 billion roubles (around $1 billion) on the war.
No source is given. It turns out this figure is nothing more than a guess based on the calculations of the authors.
Anissa Naouai says the balance of the report consists of stories culled from the news media and from social media. This has also been admitted by the BBC: “Most of the report is based on facts that have already appeared in Russian and foreign media during a year of conflict in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.”
What of the Reuters dispatch? It turns out to be no better.
Though the dispatch purports to provide proof of the presence of Russian soldiers in the Donbass, and of their growing disaffection with the war, in the end it all boils down to a single interview with a single individual who says he was a soldier serving with the famous Kantemirovskaya division when he resigned rather be sent to Ukraine.
This person claims that he did actually fight in the Donbass as a tank driver in the summer of 2014, but that he resigned from the division with 13 other soldiers when ordered to do so again during the winter.
He gives contradictory reasons for his refusal. At one point he says the war in Ukraine has nothing to do with him and that he does not feel he should be sent to fight there in a non official capacity. At another point however he says he and his comrades resigned because they were not given the medals and benefits they were promised
Reuters says this individual was one of five soldiers who contacted Reuters out of group of 14 who resigned. However all the quotes in the dispatch come from this one individual. If the other four said anything to Reuters, then Reuters is not reporting it.
Reuters says it knows this individual’s name and details. However it refuses to disclose his identity in order to protect him from reprisals.
Since this individual has done nothing illegal by talking to Reuters, it is not obvious what reprisals he has to fear. Given that Reuters says he was one of 14 soldiers who resigned from the Kantemirovksaya division rather than be sent to Ukraine, it would be very easy for the Russian authorities to identify him, and they surely have already done so by now.
Frankly, the refusal to disclose this person’s identity looks more like an excuse to shield him from further questions because of doubts about his story.
Regardless of that, since we know nothing about this person, his story is impossible to corroborate or verify, and cannot be taken seriously.
On the basis of his account, as Reuters provides it, he comes across as a rather aggrieved individual, annoyed because he did not get the medals and benefits he believes he is entitled to for fighting in the Donbass in the summer.
That points if anything to him being a volunteer.
The rest of the dispatch turns out to be simply padding.
We learn of official records of nine soldiers (not 14) who resigned from the Kantemirovskaya division in December supposedly because they did not want to go and fight in Ukraine as they were ordered to.
Reuters however admits none of the documentation connected to these resignations mentions Ukraine. Reuters was able to contact three of these soldiers. All refused to give interviews.
An operator of a Grad missile system claims to have been involved in an exercise in the Rostov Region during which he had to remove identifying marks and insignia from his uniform. Supposedly he resigned in March with some of his comrades because of fears he might be sent to Ukraine.
Rostov Region however is in Russia. It is clear from his account he was never in Ukraine and that he was never asked or ordered to go there.
Reuters says this person “fears” rockets he launched during the exercise “may have hit” targets in Ukraine. He speaks of rumours of other artillery units crossing into Ukraine.
This mix of gossip, imagination and hearsay, is evidence of nothing.
Reuters says it was told by an activist called Krivenko that soldiers had been pressured to go to the Donbass by bribes and threats of dismissal from the army, disguised as “resignation”. This is yet another, this time rather different, take on the “resignation” phenomenon. Regardless, Reuters admits it cannot verify his claims.
Reuters says some Buryat soldiers from Siberia have been seen in the Donbass. The militia admits their presence but claims they are volunteers. Reuters contacted the mother of one of these soldiers. She however “declined to say whether he had been ordered to go or had volunteered” to go.
That’s it.
We at Russia Insider make no claim to know the complete truth of this matter.
We are sure the Russian military is present in the Donbass in some form. We do not believe it is there in anything like the numbers the Ukrainian government and some Western officials say. We say this is a civil war and that the great majority of those fighting in the Donbass are Ukrainians.
Recently Der Spiegel published a story that says the German intelligence agency the BND is of the same view (see our discussion of the conflicting intelligence assessments in Ukraine Conflict Has Strained US-German Relations, Russia Insider, 9th March 2015)
What we do not however do is pretend our guesses are facts. Nor do we try to substantiate our guesses by passing off unverified gossip and speculation as evidence that makes them facts.
What is amazing to us is how easily parts of the Western media do that very thing.
The Nemtsov report is now being widely cited and treated as “proof” of what the Ukrainians and some Western governments and officials say about the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine. The BBC, despite admitting that the report is largely based “on facts that have already appeared in Russian and foreign media” still says it makes a “compelling case”. As we have seen, it does nothing of the sort.
The Reuters dispatch has been republished, for example by Business Insider and Moscow Times, and is being treated as an authoritative report on the subject, though reading it with a critical eye quickly exposes its many obvious flaws.
When it comes to the Ukrainian conflict, or indeed to any subject that concerns Russia, it is clear that facts matter little to some people. Certainly they must not be allowed to get in the way of the story.
Reuters got debunked cargoboy . Western media caught with their blatant lies again . as i said earlier
http://russia-insider.com/en/media-criticism/how-media-spins-story-russian-soldiers-ukraine/ri6919
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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sepheronx wrote:Reuters isnt unbiased, and using their own handbook isnt an example of integrity. The witness of MH-17 is a good example where they edited a claim a witness had. And then they apparently lied about omega 3 research article as well.
Sepheronx do you have a link? All I find on searches for Omega 3 Research is about "fish oil and fatty acids", thanks.
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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Join date : 2014-05-19
Location : Seattle, WA. United States
PapaDragon wrote:Also to add one more thing:
220 people will have families.
220 people will have friends.
220 people will have acquaintances.
220 people will have neighbors.
220 people will have social network contacts.
220 people is something that is impossible to hide in a country without population of India or larger.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 2 in this day and age.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 22 in this day and age.
You cannot in any way, shape or form convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 220 in this day and age.
And this is exactly why it is not a secret to anyone outside of Russia where the media is not government controlled.
PapaDragon wrote:On the other hand, Russian regulars are not active in Donbass.
If they were we would all notice cruise missile strikes, long-range artillery, air strikes, saturation bombings, naval assaults, SRBMs and god knows what else days before first Russian conscript would even bother cross the border...
Well that would negate being able to claim plausible deniability and completely opposite of the doctrine of hybrid warfare which is Putin's strategy.
kvs- Posts : 15857
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AirCargo wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Also to add one more thing:
220 people will have families.
220 people will have friends.
220 people will have acquaintances.
220 people will have neighbors.
220 people will have social network contacts.
220 people is something that is impossible to hide in a country without population of India or larger.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 2 in this day and age.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 22 in this day and age.
You cannot in any way, shape or form convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 220 in this day and age.
And this is exactly why it is not a secret to anyone outside of Russia where the media is not government controlled.
You funny. You actually believe Nezavisimaya Gazeta, The Moscow Times, RBC, Dozd TV, Echo Mosvky, etc are
government controlled? Don't insult our intelligence. I see more goose-stepping monochrome conformity
in the US and Canadian media, by far. Western media sing the exact same tune at exactly the same time. You see
none of the spread in views you would expect from independent sources.
Anyway, as with the ludicrous claims of Russian army units fighting Bendera-loving retards without any fighting
skill in the Donbas, why don't you put up or shut up.
There are almost 10,000 Russian volunteers in the Donbas and here we have the usual liberast bitching about
220 dead from last year. Wow, such epic losses for the "Russian Army". By now there are at least this many
dead Polish and other NATO irregulars fighting for the Kiev regime. Yet I see no wailing about them and yapping
about NATO forces fighting in Ukraine.
kvs- Posts : 15857
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PapaDragon wrote:Also to add one more thing:
220 people will have families.
220 people will have friends.
220 people will have acquaintances.
220 people will have neighbors.
220 people will have social network contacts.
220 people is something that is impossible to hide in a country without population of India or larger.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 2 in this day and age.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 22 in this day and age.
You cannot in any way, shape or form convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 220 in this day and age.
Not happening, no way...
If 220 people did die over there, then they went there on their on accord and not on some super secret orders you could not say no to.
Yes, Russian Spec-Ops, specialists and advisors are active in Donbass (were and still are as we speak). Yes, North Wind is real.
To say nothing of the volunteers.
On the other hand, Russian regulars are not active in Donbass.
If they were we would all notice cruise missile strikes, long-range artillery, air strikes, saturation bombings, naval assaults, SRBMs and god knows what else days before first Russian conscript would even bother cross the border...
I agree that coverups are not plausible. But don't let this lame propaganda frame the discussion. The figure of 220
dead Russian citizens in Ukraine is fully realistic. It is actually a tiny number given the fact there are at least 20,000
dead on both sides in this war.
If this 220 was meant to be proof of something, then it was hilariously inadequate. There were 5,000 volunteers
from Russia in the Donbas already last summer. This was openly admitted by the rebels. This number has swelled
to about 10,000 today. These volunteers are heroes defending Donbas civilians from Kiev regime attempts at
ethnic cleansing. (For the clown who is posting two bit Kiev propaganda in this thread: the Kiev regime promised to
send every resident of the Donbas to a filtration camp and to give land to every regime fighter).
flamming_python
flamming_python- Posts : 9543
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- Post n°57
Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine
flamming_python Sat May 16, 2015 10:07 am
AirCargo wrote:And this is exactly why it is not a secret to anyone outside of Russia where the media is not government controlled.
You know, it's funny how it was that same Russian Media that published the article 'Putin's war in the Ukraine', and many others, including the stories about the unmarked graves, interview with the Buryat tanker, etc...
It was all Novoya Gazeta, Argumenty i Fakty, etc... look it up.
All the Western media has been doing is lapping it up from Russian newspapers and sources; together with a little of its own investigative journalism that hasn't really uncovered anything that hasn't been published or theorirized by Russian journalists already.
And then that same Western media has to audacity to state that it's free and fair while all Russian media is propaganda and government-controlled.
Yet "it is not a secret to an anyone outside of Russia where the media is not government controlled"
Frickin' hillarous how gullible people like you are manipulated
And I won't even go into government control of Western media vs. government control of Russian media. Something else you ought to have a think about.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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AirCargo wrote:PapaDragon wrote:Also to add one more thing:
220 people will have families.
220 people will have friends.
220 people will have acquaintances.
220 people will have neighbors.
220 people will have social network contacts.
220 people is something that is impossible to hide in a country without population of India or larger.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 2 in this day and age.
You can convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 22 in this day and age.
You cannot in any way, shape or form convince/bribe/intimidate families and friends of 220 in this day and age.
And this is exactly why it is not a secret to anyone outside of Russia where the media is not government controlled.
Lol? How would you know? When did the Media outside the Russian SMI had a tangible number for "Russian" KIA in Ukraine? Tell me? The closest thing to that was Suytagin's RUSI idiocies about over 10K soldiers IN UKRAINE and upwards 2K losses. That's a 'Royal institute' FFS?
PapaDragon wrote:On the other hand, Russian regulars are not active in Donbass.
If they were we would all notice cruise missile strikes, long-range artillery, air strikes, saturation bombings, naval assaults, SRBMs and god knows what else days before first Russian conscript would even bother cross the border...
Well that would negate being able to claim plausible deniability and completely opposite of the doctrine of hybrid warfare which is Putin's strategy.
That would negate what? Plausible deniability is out of the window when the tanks you just sent down the border have been making photo-ops in the fvcking middle of Debalcevo. There is no "Hybrid" Warfare. That's bullshit the US invents to coin something is does itself, differently.
Having Blackhawks without marking with US troops in fucking Abottabad slotting UBL was what exactly? Hybrid Warfare? Having ISI (as in Pakistani ISI) motherfvckers sniping US troops in Afghanistan, was what Hybrid Warfare? Having US "instructors" invade Laos, Burma, Colombia, Nicaragua was what exactly? Hybrid Warfare? Lulz.
You need to try harder esse. There's no Hybrid warfare, just politics.
franco- Posts : 7053
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You can argue this subject all day but in regards to the Nezavisimaya Gazeta stories about the two Russian soldiers experience in Donbas;
- how long is conscription service in Russia?
- when were these boys "called up" into service?
- when did they go and fight in Donbas?
- and how does a lad doing his service in a MVD transport guard unit become a Spetsnaz trooper?
The whole story shows how you take some facts and deliver them to represent something else. Read the stories again after educating yourself on the above and you will find they were recruited after their military service was over. To me it only shows Russian complacency in the recruitment and training of Russian volunteers.
The other thing is that it reenforces the rumors of a strategic reserve force of Russian volunteers kept across the border in Russia training until needed for major actions. The rumored force of 1500 would be enough to man two Battalion Tactical Groups each of a Infantry battalion supported by a company each of tanks, SP howitzers and MRL plus a separate 31 unit tank battalion. I believe I have heard this group called the North Wind or something similar. They are rumored to have played a major role in the final assaults at Ilovais'k and Debal'tseve.
- how long is conscription service in Russia?
- when were these boys "called up" into service?
- when did they go and fight in Donbas?
- and how does a lad doing his service in a MVD transport guard unit become a Spetsnaz trooper?
The whole story shows how you take some facts and deliver them to represent something else. Read the stories again after educating yourself on the above and you will find they were recruited after their military service was over. To me it only shows Russian complacency in the recruitment and training of Russian volunteers.
The other thing is that it reenforces the rumors of a strategic reserve force of Russian volunteers kept across the border in Russia training until needed for major actions. The rumored force of 1500 would be enough to man two Battalion Tactical Groups each of a Infantry battalion supported by a company each of tanks, SP howitzers and MRL plus a separate 31 unit tank battalion. I believe I have heard this group called the North Wind or something similar. They are rumored to have played a major role in the final assaults at Ilovais'k and Debal'tseve.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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- Post n°60
Re: Alleged Russian Soldiers-Οperatives In Ukraine
magnumcromagnon Sat May 16, 2015 3:30 pm
AirCargo wrote:And this is exactly why it is not a secret to anyone outside of Russia where the media is not government controlled.
Because we all know that there is no high level inter-networking relationships between U.S. media and the U.S. govt...Meanwhile in America:
kvs- Posts : 15857
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franco wrote:You can argue this subject all day but in regards to the Nezavisimaya Gazeta stories about the two Russian soldiers experience in Donbas;
- how long is conscription service in Russia?
- when were these boys "called up" into service?
- when did they go and fight in Donbas?
- and how does a lad doing his service in a MVD transport guard unit become a Spetsnaz trooper?
The whole story shows how you take some facts and deliver them to represent something else. Read the stories again after educating yourself on the above and you will find they were recruited after their military service was over. To me it only shows Russian complacency in the recruitment and training of Russian volunteers.
The other thing is that it reenforces the rumors of a strategic reserve force of Russian volunteers kept across the border in Russia training until needed for major actions. The rumored force of 1500 would be enough to man two Battalion Tactical Groups each of a Infantry battalion supported by a company each of tanks, SP howitzers and MRL plus a separate 31 unit tank battalion. I believe I have heard this group called the North Wind or something similar. They are rumored to have played a major role in the final assaults at Ilovais'k and Debal'tseve.
This is fluff designed to make Russian volunteers sound sinister and as direct agents of the Russian government. I call BS.
Russian volunteers are training in the Donbas and not across the border. Why the f*ck would they do that? They have Russian
advisers in the Donbas doing the same job NATO advisers are doing in Banderastan controlled territory. The 1,500 number is
a joke too. It is 10,000. And just to pre-empt the usual recursive nitpicking many of those 10,000 volunteers are people with
military training. But that proves exactly f*ck all about them being Putin's agents.
franco- Posts : 7053
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The 1500 number is just a reserve force, not the total of Russian volunteers and the stories of it's existence comes from Russian volunteers and Donbas leadership. The anti-Russian crowd would just call them Russian Army units 
sepheronx- Posts : 8847
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http://rt.com/news/245141-reuters-witness-misreport-mh17/
Guys can say that RT is all propaganda, but they at least actually asked the guy who talked to Reuters journalist and says they fudged his statement.
Guys can say that RT is all propaganda, but they at least actually asked the guy who talked to Reuters journalist and says they fudged his statement.
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kvs wrote:...........................................
I agree that coverups are not plausible. But don't let this lame propaganda frame the discussion. The figure of 220
dead Russian citizens in Ukraine is fully realistic. It is actually a tiny number given the fact there are at least 20,000
dead on both sides in this war.
.........................................
I am not arguing that it is not plausable (I actually agree). What I am saying that those 220 dead are not Russian regulars but volunteers who are citizens of Russia.
Big difference there!
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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Russian activists investigate Spetsnaz deaths in Ukraine
https://medium.com/@ReggaeMortis1/russian-activists-investigate-spetsnaz-deaths-in-ukraine-59e2416b19b9
https://medium.com/@ReggaeMortis1/russian-activists-investigate-spetsnaz-deaths-in-ukraine-59e2416b19b9
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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A Russian soldier captured in Ukraine admits on video to spying mission
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-russian-soldier-said-captured-in-ukraine-admits-on-video-to-spying-mission-2015-5?IR=T
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-russian-soldier-said-captured-in-ukraine-admits-on-video-to-spying-mission-2015-5?IR=T
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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The Last Haul of the Russian Soldier to MH17
https://en.informnapalm.org/the-last-haul-of-the-russian-soldier-to-mh17/
https://en.informnapalm.org/the-last-haul-of-the-russian-soldier-to-mh17/
sepheronx- Posts : 8847
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AirCargo wrote:The Last Haul of the Russian Soldier to MH17
https://en.informnapalm.org/the-last-haul-of-the-russian-soldier-to-mh17/
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
what total bullshit and you know it AirCargo, unless you are plainly you know what.
AirCargo wrote:A Russian soldier captured in Ukraine admits on video to spying mission
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-russian-soldier-said-captured-in-ukraine-admits-on-video-to-spying-mission-2015-5?IR=T
Yeah, after clearly being tortured and on medication.
max steel- Posts : 2930
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Too bad no many people checked the fact that both soldiers (born and raised in Luhansk) belonged to the police in Luhansk, and the "special forces one" did just basic military training in Russia...i think he didn't even finished the two year commitment . Business Insider koch brothers propaganda outlet holds no validity . Air cargo still believesin his nation myellow press .
sepheronx- Posts : 8847
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max steel wrote:Too bad no many people checked the fact that both soldiers (born and raised in Luhansk) belonged to the police in Luhansk, and the "special forces one" did just basic military training in Russia...i think he didn't even finished the two year commitment . Business Insider koch brothers propaganda outlet holds no validity . Air cargo still believesin his nation myellow press .
http://top.rbc.ru/politics/20/05/2015/555cbf189a7947dc19838872
He has family in Lugansk. He quit the services in 2014.
sepheronx- Posts : 8847
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http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/68476.html
So while Russia, Lugansk and Donetsk republics have released Ukrainian soldiers prisoners, Ukraine will not give up these two guys but try to "make an example" of them by trial. At this point, added how Kiev will refuse to pay back debt, I hope they are digging their own graves.
So while Russia, Lugansk and Donetsk republics have released Ukrainian soldiers prisoners, Ukraine will not give up these two guys but try to "make an example" of them by trial. At this point, added how Kiev will refuse to pay back debt, I hope they are digging their own graves.
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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(UPDATE) The investigation of the death of the 16th Special Forces OBrSpN GRU MO RF (in / h 54607)
http://ruslanleviev.livejournal.com/36035.html
http://ruslanleviev.livejournal.com/36035.html
AirCargo- Posts : 97
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Captured soldiers shocked at Russian government denials.
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/68506.html
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/68506.html
sepheronx- Posts : 8847
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AirCargo wrote:Captured soldiers shocked at Russian government denials.
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/68506.html
They can be shocked all they want according to this 5th columnist piece, cause the family members already confirmed that they were not soldiers.
Also, how could they be "shocked"? No Russian journalist is allowed to see them to ask any questions (so how can this group get that info?) and there are signs of torture and forced admission.
AirCargo wrote:(UPDATE) The investigation of the death of the 16th Special Forces OBrSpN GRU MO RF (in / h 54607)
http://ruslanleviev.livejournal.com/36035.html
So they signed contracts afterwards to be contract soldiers? Guess they shouldn't have signed it for their sake. But god bless those helping the novorussians and the ones perished for Eastern Ukraines freedom.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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AirCargo wrote:(UPDATE) The investigation of the death of the 16th Special Forces OBrSpN GRU MO RF (in / h 54607)
http://ruslanleviev.livejournal.com/36035.html
Interesting that Ivan died because he had no more ammo. Where exactly did these people died while spending their ammo and fell all three.
It's really very weird, two guys are captured "laying mines", three are killed in what seems a firefight...Either this is smoke and mirrors either there are no centralized referents for these guys in Ukraine. They're let to roam free, partizan style.