MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News

Some reports suggested that the Russian Mig 29Ks will have Zhuk AESA and more powerful engines, is that correct? If so are any reliable specs available and will these fighters use the 3D TVC capability of the Mig 35 as well?

Hard to say.

The Russian Air Force basically has to make the decision as to whether to splash out on the best available now and risk having less money for production PAK FAs... in other words buy Mig-35s now, they will be more capable now and will also remain useful for longer as a numbers aircraft, or they can go the cheap route and buy Mig-29M2s now and perhaps later on give them an upgrade to give them the capabilities of the Mig-35 eventually as the technology gets cheaper later on and then have more money to spend on PAK FAs when they are ready.

Of course with the Mig-29Ks it basically shares the Mig-29M2 airframe but with a tailhook and folding wing, but the Navy has its own budget and its own goals.

The Mig-29K is the eyes and spear of the navy... and because of the rather smaller numbers of aircraft they can probably afford to spend more per aircraft to make them more capable. But then of course they likely have future planes for a naval PAK FA for their new carriers and the Kuznetsov too.

With regard to the MMRCA, the Mig had no choice for numerous reasons. It is simply is not a modern design anymore and it's future potential is very limited.

I would very much disagree... there is no way of turning it into some sort of stealth fighter, but for a defending force a stealth fighter is not as useful as numbers of fighters linked in to a decent air defence network.

Right now WVR combat is just too dangerous, and in BVR combat the Mig-29 early models were comparable to contemporary F-15s. With new missiles and new sensors there is no reason to think they would be at any great disadvantage against current non stealthy aircraft including the Euro canards.

In the A2G field on the other side it is clearly inferior to the MKI, but offensive strikes against Chinese forces played an important role in the competition from the begining, which is why IAF wasn't too impressed by Mig 29SMT, nor of the Mig35 later.

Actually the Mig-35 could carry 2,000 litre fuel tanks on its 5 pylon wing, which means it should be able to match the Flankers capacity to carry KAB-1500 1,500kg bombs. This suggests to me that the advantage of the Flanker was largely illusionary, being able to carry a heavier payload of weapons further is only important if you need that capacity. Not every aircraft in the Air Force needs to be strategic in range. Look at how elusive the Mig-21 was in tests... smaller and cheaper can often be better... or they should have called it HMRCA.

That's why IAF initially prefered a cheap, but more multi role Mirage 2000, which would have kept logistics and training simple as well.

What makes the M2K more multirole than the Mig-35?

Second what makes the M2K that France refused to sell to India better than the Mig-35 that Russia was happy to sell to India?

That's why it's not too surprising that the 2 fighters that offers the most future potential, (EF at least on paper)the most capable cruise missiles and also the best industrial offers for India. The one that offers the most in return came out as the winner and will form a great combo with the MKI.

The EF might have all the potential in the world, but when the countries that developed it can't even be bothered developing it into a fully multirole aircraft even after it has entered service you have to ask who would get the priviledge of paying for that further development.

The Rafale will probably end up costing more than the MKIs, so you end up with much more expensive eggs, after an extended delay that in no way changed anything very much.

Ideally, India could have simply avoided all this MMRCA rubbish and bought some upgraded M2Ks and some upgraded Mig-29s and they would have ended up much better off, but the problem was that France refused to offer upgrades or more M2Ks, and so India ended up having to go through a time consuming and expensive charade to eventually pick the aircraft they were offered in the first place.

All together much more of a circus than the Gorshkov deal... but it is pretty clear who now controls the media...

With additional MKI orders, big upgrade packages coming and the FGFA co-development, Russia will remain to have a big stack in IAF anyway, so loosing MMRCA shouldn't be that much of a problem for Russia.

No problem for Russia, but not so good for Mig.

I would have thought the cheap and simple but fully multirole Mig-29SMT would have been an ideal replacement for the Mig-21s and Mig-27s and old model Mig-29s in Indian service. Give them the larger wing with 5 pylons on each from the Mig-35 and equip them with something like a Damocles pod for targeting and they will be as good for most missions as any other 4th gen aircraft. India has production rights to the third stage RD-33 engine so spare parts and maintainence shouldn't be a problem... buy the licence production rights for the parts yourself.

Materials, twin vertical tail, no intake ducts, no supercruise capabilities...,

Hahahaha... what materials does Typhoon or Rafale use that the Mig-35 does not?

Twin tail? Sorry but what is the problem?

The twin tails are positioned to get the vortex air coming off the leading edge root extensions. Replace it with a single vertical tail and that single tail would need to be enormous to reach clean undisturbed air... especially for high angle of attack manouvers.

Super cruise!!!!

You do realise supercruise is only useful at medium to high altitudes... places where non-stealth aircraft like the Mig-35 or Rafale or Typhoon can never just wander around in?

I guess you think supercruising comes with some sort of magic shield that will protect those high flying aircraft from long range SAMs like S-400 which would eat Rafales for breakfast at 400km range if they want to fly high and straight.

BTW the Mig-29 has a solid door that completely covers the air intake that is used for takeoffs and landings to stop stones entering the intake. Later model Migs have a grid to deflect stones that allows air to pass through so the above intake louvres are not needed, but that screen door could be designed to act as a radar blocker so that it could be deployed in flight if needed.

it's just a technically upgraded Mig 29 version, but remains with the old design and just like the F16 design, that has a limited future.

Rafale is just a twin engined upgraded Mirage 2000 with canards added. Its first name was Mirage 4000.
Typhoon is just a twin engined Ye-8 modification of a Mig-21 from the 1960s.

The only modern designs include the F-22 produced in tiny numbers and not likely to be put back into production and the F-35 whose basic design was compromised to allow a VSTOL model resulting in a more expensive aircraft of lower performance than what could have been designed.

You can upgrade certain techs, but not counter the design issues anymore and since India gets the best Russian AESAs and engines with TVC through MKI and FGFA, the Mig 35 capabilities couldn't stand out.

And how will the Rafale "stand out" amongst the upgraded Super Flanker and the FFGA?

Is it really necessary to have another heavy expensive type, or perhaps what was really needed was a simple and much much cheaper numbers aircraft that could do the real work and be everywhere?

It seems that India wants only super jets... such a mentality means real workhorses like A4s and F-16s and Buccaneers and F-4s are overlooked for shiny fast flash in the pan aircraft... Africa is full of Mig-21s when what they could probably have used more effectively was Su-25s, but who wants effective when you can have shiny and mach 2?

Like I said though, there are persistent rumors of AF getting a batch of MiG-35s sometime this decade.

AFAIK there is money in the budget for 48 aircraft that will either be Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s. I would suspect even if it was ordered now it would take a couple of years to finalise the design and get it into production and service.

The first priority of the military was not fighter planes... it was C4IR, which has been largely dealt with with new command and control systems being tested as we speak.

Another goal was to get modern weapons into service, which means modern missiles, which of course requires modern aircraft to use them. The Su-27P standard fighter needed an upgrade to carry most modern weapons including air to ground guided weapons, while the late model Mig-29C aircraft already had limited air to ground capacity even if there were no guided weapons in stock for them to use.

Therefore it could be argued that the Flankers were in greater need of replacement, but it was also because with foreign orders the Flanker factories were ready to make planes and already had a skilled labour force ready to go.

Of course with all these aircraft in production and or development (ie Su-35, Su-30SM, T-50, Su-34, Su-25 upgrades, Su-25 replacement) then it makes perfect sense to give some orders to Mig for Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s.

ricky123 wrote: ... anyway does mig35 work on carriers ?

Yes, MiG-29K

The legendary MiG

The on-site meeting of Duma’s Defense Committee dedicated to the development of Russia’s combat aviation was held at the territory of manufacturing facility of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RAC MiG) located in Lukhovitsy (Moscow Region).

During the closed-door meeting the deputies, along with representatives of Ministry of Defense, Research and Development Establishments and national aircraft companies have discussed a number of problems and considered a solution approach for each problem.

Vladimir Komoedov has explained in his opening speech, why the meeting was held at MiG’s site. The ex-commander-in-chief of the Black Sea Fleet named three reasons for that; the first one is 60-year global leadership of RAC MiG in the area of development of tactical aircraft.

The second reason is geopolitical aspect: besides MiG, there is no other full-scale plant specializing in production of fighters in the European Russia. In this context Komoedov laid stress on the importance of the Corporation in terms of providing the stability of military-industrial sector in critical situations.

And the third one is the success of MiG in development of technologies for integration into diversified system during development of aircraft on behalf of USSR air defense forces.

The Lukhovitsi-based plant

The manufacturing facility of RAC MiG was able to manufacture hundreds of aircraft per year during the Soviet era. However, the enterprise has almost stopped the assembly of new aircraft by early 2000s. At present the Lukhovitsi-based plant is undergoing the new birth connected with assimilation of new technologies and increase of its output. The enterprise is equipped with the state-of-the-art digital NC machines.

The major renewal of the MiG’s plant is linked to the development of new family of fighters: MiG-29М/М2 and MiG-29К/КUB, along with «4++»-generation fighter MiG-35. These vehicles are designed as the new platform with a great potential for increasing combat capabilities during a long period of time using technologies incident to the fifth-generation fighters.

The new fighters resemble MiG-29, but in fact these are brand-new vehicles with significant upgrades of fuselage structure and aircraft equipment. Moreover, some parts of these jets are made of new advanced materials.

It is known that the Lukhovitsi-based plant in due time was the leader in the area of assimilation of composites. The manufacturing process was not demonstrated, but the journalists were able to take a look at the products.

The share of composites in the fuselage structure of advanced carrier-based MiG-29 fighters reaches 15%, instead of 2-3% in the first MiG-29s. The jet’s fuel and combat load (4.5 tons of missiles and bombs) increased by half thanks to usage of composites. Theflightlifewasdoubled. In addition, the composites are more resistant to the impact of salt-water environment. The share of polymers, composites, honeycomb blocks and panels in the total weight of the advanced fighter is about 12%, however, without these components the jet’s weight would have increased by 30%.

CEO of RAC MiG, Sergey Korotkov, said that the corporation’s order backlog is assessed at more than $6 billion representing 5 years of full production (until 2017). The signing of new contracts with foreign customers and Russian Ministry of Defense is expected in the nearest future.

Russia will start the deliveries of 29 MiG-29K/KUB fighters to India in 2012.
- 16 such jets have already been delivered to the customer in accordance with the first contract and now we are starting implementation of the second contract on delivery of 29 fighters. We will start the deliveries this year", -Korotkov said following the results of the on-site meeting of Duma’s Defense Committee.

The contracts on deliveries, overhaul and upgrading of aircraft in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America (including deliveries of spare parts to some operators of MiG aircraft) form the basis of export order backlog. India leads the way among the foreign clients of RAC MiG. MiG Corporation is upgrading the jets of Indian air forces in the network of MiG-29 UPG program implemented in accordance with the contract signed in March 2008. The first six jets have undergone the overhaul and upgrading at RAC MiG’s site. Over 90% of the jets will be upgraded in India.

Besides production of carrier-based fighters intended for Indian and Russian navy, RAC MiG should deliver the first MiG-35s to the Russian air forces next year. It is expected that the Ministry of Defense will place additional orders for these jets in 2013-2014.

Russian Ministry of Defense intends to form at least two squadrons of MiG-35s by 2015. Initially it was planned to sign the contract on delivery of MiG-35s to the Russian air forces in 2009, however that did not happen. MiG-35 aircraft will be manufactured in single-seat (MiG-35) and two-seat (MiG-35D) versions.

According to the state defense order, four new MiG aircraft will be delivered to the military forces next year and the deliveries of first multi-role MiG-35 aircraft is scheduled for 2014. The first vehicle intended for Russian air forces has already been placed on the aircraft assembly jig.

RAC MiG is also taking part in the project launched by Sukhoi Holding Company after winning the corresponding tender. MiG and Sukhoi have signed a cooperation agreement in the network of development of UAVs. Russian Ministry of Defense selected Sukhoi as the developer of heavy attack UAV in July 2012.

Nowadays MiG aircraft are manufactured by three plants located in Lukhovitsi, Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod.

The airframe is manufactured in Moscow, major components – in Nizhny Novgorod and wings – in Lukhovitsi. The final assembly of the fighters is carried out in Lukhovitsi. The composite parts are also manufactured in Lukhovitsi.

Personnel

There are a lot of young people at Lukhovitsi plant, you can tell it by the employees working on the jigs. They may pass the blue-collar job training in Polytechnic College and Lukhovitsi-based aviation technical school. A lot of production workers came from the cities of Moscow and Ryazan Region.

For example, the lowest salary of the NC machine operator is 18 thousand rubles per month (the highest salary was not unveiled). The enterprise is also attracting employees with benefits package, for instance, you may have dinner at the plant’s dining room for just 60 rubles. You may also send your children to a recreation camp for only 10% of the original cost of trip ticket. The trade union pays for expensive surgeries. Many employees are studying in Moscow Aviation Institute for the corporation’s account. Target training in higher and secondary education institutions at the expense of RAC MiG is available for a number of specialties. The full-time education students are provided with additional paid holidays with retention of their average earnings in order to pass an interim attestation, defend a graduate qualification work and pass the final state examinations. In accordance with their contract, they must be working at the enterprise for at least 5 years after the training. Almost every such graduate is a big fan of aircraft industry. They are working in a quality manner and becoming experienced top-ranked specialists in few years.

Resume

"RAC MiG did not lose its potential and its situation is not critical. There are some problems but they are of working nature and they may be quickly and efficiently solved in the presence of state support", - CEO of RAC MiG, Sergey Korotkov, said.

The situation on other enterprises of the aircraft industry was also considered during the meeting in Lukhovitsi. Following the results of the on-site meeting the Duma’s Defense Committee will finalize and submit the corresponding proposals to the government’s consideration.

Sergey Korotkov noted that the latest ideas and solutions have been implemented during development of advanced multi-role MiG aircraft. As a result, these jets meet all the international requirements in their class and have a competitive edge at the global arms market. Russian military products are traditionally dominating by the “efficiency-cost” criteria.

In addition, RAC MiG has a good potential for development in the long-term perspective and this is the major guarantee of its future.

http://www.ruaviation.com/docs/4/2012/11/16/64/

It very much depends on the contract... often initial deposits are not refundable as they are spent on setting up production and paying contractors... things that MIG doesn't get back either.

Yes these MiG´s were so poorly made Algeria sent them back, and a criminal case wase opened against MiG.

Lets not fall for that propaganda... if they were poorly made then the Russian AF would not have bought them.


Very simply Algeria was offered Su-30s for the same price they had ordered Mig-29SMTs for... they were going to reject those Mig-29SMTs even if it was because they weren't painted the right colour.

The official claim I saw was that the Mig-29SMTs were made of old air frames instead of newly made air frames... which begged the question of why they ordered Mig-29SMTs which is an upgrade instead of Mig-29M2s which are new builds.

At the end of the day there was nothing wrong with the Migs, Sukhoi simply made them an offer they could not refuse.

Well Gary, propaganda by ria? Dont be so hasty to dismiss everything critical as "propaganda".
I like and have respect for Soviet/Russian military hardware, but i must be honest and be able to critisise when its called for.
By the way, the Eurofighter its a huge and costly failure if anything, but this site is for Soviet/Rusian hardware, so here i can both praise and critizise them.

Did you even read the article you posted?

How does a subcontractor to MIG forging documents to sell old parts to MIG for the Algerian contract equate to your accusation that MIG can't make planes any more?

If they were poorly made why would the Russian military accept them?

They basically had a few counterfeit parts that were not brand new, which Algeria used as an excuse to end the contract... to find they were not new they must have had experts (likely Sukhoi ones) scour the aircraft parts looking for anomolies so they could reject the offer.


At the end of the day the issue was that Algeria claimed it ordered brand new parts and some parts were found to be not new manufacture.

Of course the definition of new is vague... when I buy something I really don't know when it was manufactured... it might be ten years old sitting in storage for all I know, but because it has never left storage it can be sold as new. Algeria took the recently manufactured definition of new it seems.

Still, MiG should have better controll for quality, and iam sure they have improved that now.

Mig had a contract to supply planes to Algeria, they got some parts from a sub contractor that had official looking documents that later turned out to be forgeries and you are blaming MiG?

Perhaps it is their fault... perhaps they should have telepaths in their ranks that can divine whether documents are fake or genuine... or perhaps they should just build planes for people who actually want them rather than those trying to wiggle out of contracts because they got a better offer.