MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

The SANDF as a whole is really struggling to keep things afloat. The annual operational budget is totally inadequate. Recently there was a plan to pay Russia a visit with our sole operational frigate (out of 4) - but it had to be canceled due to lack of funds...

On the other hand there is no lack of funds for VIP flights

One of the issues about all of this is that in industry and especially in the aerospace sector, introducing a new product and getting to serial production is not exactly straightforward.

Furthermore design work for su-75 is still in progress, development (validation and verification) is possibly still in its early phase and there is still a lot of integration work needed, plus all structural and flight testing of the aircraft. I do not even know if the aircraft design is frozen, since the pictures shown this year are quite different from those shown at the first presentation of the project.

And after everything is done and the prototypes are done (on individual bases) if everything works well serial production needs to be organised.

Anyway just for the flight tests only, we need to count "at least" a couple of years. Of course it will not need as much time as the T-50/ Su-57, because the engines and some of the internal systems will be the same, and for others the technology has already been developed and they just need a new downscaled model.

But do not think they can be in serial production and already inservice before 2030.
Everyone who say that they will be in service before that is either:
1) extremely optimistic
2) a liar
3) someone who lack knowledge of aerospace industry and of design, development and manufacturing in such industry.

Even the radar cannot be the same as the one of the Su-57, as it is too big for the aircraft and possibly requires more energy that that is available for a single engine.

The mig-35 on the other hand has an already established production line (the same as the Mig-29M and mig-29K) and the other internal systems which are not common with the Mig-29M and K have been already been tested in the first 6 aircrafts or in other prototypes (like the mig-29OVT). As far as the AESA radar for the mig-35 they are already existing, maybe they are not the best in their category, but they just need to be integrated with the rest of the avionics and tested in the aircraft.


The problem is the same that I see in other projects in aerospace, many people want the last future project with all bell and whistles, without understanding that such things take (a lot of) time.

Even in western companies in many occasions people believe that they can do something quickly and cheaply because it will reuse parts of the solution from another aircraft/engine, etc.
This results in massive overspending and delays.

The reality is that unless you want to do something with yesterday's technology and already mature production capabilities, the time you need will be still many years.

I.e. Russia developed VK-650 and VK-1600 turboprop engines in a short time because they are on par or just slightly better with their foreign equivalent that entered service many years ago. If they would have wanted something with 2020s level of technology the project would have lasted at least 10 years.

So Russia can have a few squadrons of Mig35 being built in the meanwhile, or continue producing only heavy fighters until 2030. Tertium non datur.

The design was inspired and based on the F-16. So there was no single engine Mig-29 as you suggested?

Even if it was a carbon copy of an F-16 that would make it a single engined MiG-29.

That is what the F-16 is a light cheap numbers fourth gen fighter.

Funny that you have mentioned the cost experience, as Gripen is being advertised as ultra cheap to operate. And this is the main advertisement strategy they pushed for decades, in all their bids.

Not to mention the religious dogma that obviously being a single engined fighter it must be cheaper to operate than any twin engined fighter...

Is it an accident that the list of most expensive planes on the planet I posted above includes the three main single engined fighters of the west... F-16, Gripen, and F-35... is anyone actually shocked at all?

But no, the MiG-35 is crap because it is old and because it has two engines.

The chart I posted on the previous page shows the operational costs of flying the F-35... and this is the A model, not the more expensive naval versions, was $67,550 per hour... for a single engined fighter. For an extra $2,838 the B-52 with its 8 engines is supported per flight hour... not much extra really... working on those other 7 engines... unless modern engines with digital control systems that manage their use and warn of problems, are not that hard to maintain and service...

@Rodion_Romanovic

Obviously you make some valid point which I agree with. What all the Mig-35 fans seems to completely ignore is that the Su-75 is based on an existing Su-57 that has been completely developed into stage one production.

It took 10 years from the first flight to production of the first Su-57. Not too bad considering where this project came from. It's history is marked with some major delays, development- and funding issues. All that is sorted now.

Now we have an aircraft that is based on the final results of the Su-57. An aircraft that has already entered full scale production. The Su-75 uses several main components from the Su-57 program like the complete cockpit and the engine etc. etc. Same goes for the main frame. The smaller radar should not pose any major issues as it would most likely be developed from the N036-1-01 radar. Components do get smaller as time goes by.

Lets take the F-15 for example. It took about 4-5 years to get the aircraft into service since its debut. The far more technically advanced version of the F-15E took less than three years. Why? Because they used an existing fighter as the basis.

How long would a less advanced version of the Su-57 take to develop? My guess is if they really want it, it should be able to start rolling off the production line by 2027. Definitely before 2030.

Mir wrote:
How long would a less advanced version of the Su-57 take to develop? My guess is if they really want it, it should be able to start rolling off the production line by 2027. Definitely before 2030.

If you talk about a downgraded version of the su-57 (i.e. Su-57 airframe with many Su-35 components) you are completely right. It definitely can be ready by 2027.

But a single engine aircraft which shares most of the technology developed for the Su-57, with a completely new airframe and internal space distribution (because it has an engine in the middle) and for which some of the internal systems are to be specifically redesigned anyway (the technology is available and tested, but they need to design, develop and test the specific components for the Su-75) requires much more time.

Well we saw a static with all the bits and pieces - so that part is basically done. They know exactly where all the components should go. Hence they are building "several" prototypes already. So no I'm talking about a Su-75 with Su-57 components.

From the original Mig-29M's first flight to the Mig-29M2 took 20 years - it took another 11 years for the Mig-35 to get off the ground. So that makes it 31 years to get to the final development - the Mig-35! Maybe that is why you guys don't want to believe that the Su-75 could be fully developed in a few years from now

Fact is you all expected MiG to roll out a light fighter back then - but to everyone's surprise it was a Sukhoi. Wonder what you would say now if it was actually a MiG?  

Today's Russia have very different requirements than back in those dark years and it clearly shows in the current defense budget and the urgency around production. Hold on to your hats gents!

Mir wrote:Well we saw a static with all the bits and pieces - so that part is basically done. They know exactly where all the components should go. Hence they are building "several" prototypes already. So no I'm talking about a Su-75 with Su-57 components.

Off topic that should probably go in the Su-75 thread

What we have seen is a static structural model for which we do not even know if it passed all its structural tests.

About internal systems, we have absolutely no clue.

It cannot use all the same systems as the Su-57, because it has a different configuration and different space. The su-57 Is a bigger, heavier aircraft with higher electrical power available (because of two engines) and with a completely different internal space.

The avionics and software needs to be completely made ad hoc for this aircraft and tested.
The radar as well.

Even for the engine there are issues. It will have for sure different inlets, maybe a different accessory gearbox and many other parts like hydraulics and fuel system engine build units (of the su-57 version of the Al-51 powerplant) will most probably need to be made anew and tested again for the su-75 version of the Al-51.

Maybe all of these things are already being done in the meanwhile. I do not know.

The only thing I know is that I saw a static model of the aircraft and that the design of the aircraft shown this year was different from that model.

About all other internal systems no clue, but they cannot hope to use one to one the internal systems of the Su-57.
What they do not need to do is create the technology. That is available and probably they will not introduce any improvement in comparison to Su-57 system. However they are su-57 systems. They need new systems for the Su-75. Which need to be then tested. The technology does not need to be validated and verified, because it is already existing. But the specific systems for the Su-75 must be designed and tested, and I am sure they are doing that.

As an example they cannot just easily take the hydraulics of the Su-57 and put in the Su-75 prototypes. They are different things.
Paradoxically it would be easier to reuse parts from the su-57 in the su-35.

So, the question is, could the Su-75 be in service in 2027?
Ignoring the manufacturing issues, because it is another large problem on its own, it would be only possible if sukhoi+ Saturn+ all suppliers already had started working and testing their own parts (dedicated explicitly for the Su-75) many years ago.

Maybe it is possible.

But speaking about using Su-57 systems in Su-75 is absolutely absurd. Yes they will use the same "technology" and probably some part numbers of the various systems will be the same. But they will not be the same systems and they will need to repeat most if not all  of the verification testing. And the verification testing is not decided by Sukhoi or Saturn, but by the Russian airworthiness authorities. There are different rules in the military world than in the civil aviation, but that does not mean that in the military they do less testing.

Maybe I am reacting like that because people which are not engineers speak about stuff they do not understand simplifying too much and saying.. yes we plan to use the same systems as the su-57. If so that is absolutely vaporware.

If, and only if, instead sukhoi and all their suppliers have been working, developing and testing properly for many years dedicated systems for the su-75 (benefitting of the same technology developed for the Su-57), maybe they could be really ready for flight tests next year and serial production and entry to service a couple of years later.  

But that means instead that some incompetent journalist or some HR person said wrongly: we do it fast because if we reuse su-57 systems.

And here we repeat again and again the same bs.

It cannot use all the same systems as the Su-57, because it has a different configuration and different space.

Never said they used all the same systems as the Su-57

BTW - Long before you construct a wooden mock-up of anything - let alone a fighter. You know beforehand from the design drawings where every single component goes. You know exactly what components you're going to use and all of those components have (or should have) been tested to comply.
You don't just cut and paste things together until everything fits.

@Archie

Spare me the insults bro (unless you're actually 12).

Sukhoi just adds some numbers to their planes without really changing much of what’s inside.
That’s why most of their customers prefer Rafale these days

Looking at real EXPORT orders Rafale gets to about 160 units (not bad for such an overpriced machine)

Not counting Chinese license production of the Su-30 I get around 570 EXPORTED units. How many MiG-29M's and 35's do you get?

This is an old photo. Do you guys know what fighter's nose peeps in the background? Some of the hatches have been removed. Do those thingies behind the hatches look anything like vapourware?

The Su-57 is doing just fine - it's the Mig-35 that's having a hard time getting anywhere. You guys are beginning to sound like the "blind leading the blind"

Arkanghelsk wrote:Just think of the manufacturing cost and operational cost of MIG35 as baked into the cost of repairing all this lost equipment  

It should be much cheaper to operate the MiG-35 than the Su-25. The engines have way higher lifetime. The MiG-35 with latest optical targeting system should be a capable standoff ground attack aircraft.

What all the Mig-35 fans seems to completely ignore is that the Su-75 is based on an existing Su-57 that has been completely developed into stage one production.

Yet aerodynamically it is a different aircraft... the wings don't even look the same and things like body lift that teh Su-57 would benefit from are not relevant when it comes to the Su-75 design.



This image is not real because one of these aircraft can't fly yet but you can see the wings are different and there is no horizontal tail surface so the flight model is going to be completely different too.

The Su-75 is going to benefit from using Su-57 parts that are already n production but they likely have not finalised the actual serial production design yet and likely wont until they have done some actual flight testing and checked its performance in the air... it is not the case that it gets airborne and lands without crashing they put it directly into serial production.

In comparison the MiG-35 has done all that and is in low rate serial production already.

I am not saying they should cancel the 5th gen light fighter programme, but they need to take their time and get it right and test it against other potential rivals too including MiG and Yak and any other potential competitors.

They introduced and produced the Su-35 at a time when they could have said... aw **** it... we spent all this money on the Su-57... why waste it producing an old Su-27 upgrade.

By making Su-35s they got capable heavy fighters into service and could test some equipment they would eventually put on the Su-57 like the wing mounted AESA anti stealth radars they have. Other systems will have been tested too.

Heavy hydraulics and pipes replaced with electric motors is another way to make the aircraft safer and also lighter and cheaper, that can be applied to 4th and 5th gen designs to make them better.

It took 10 years from the first flight to production of the first Su-57. Not too bad considering where this project came from. It's history is marked with some major delays, development- and funding issues. All that is sorted now.

If making 5th gen fighters was easy everyone would be doing it... instead the US and Russia and China are making them and everyone else has a model or drawing they are talking up.

Lets take the F-15 for example. It took about 4-5 years to get the aircraft into service since its debut. The far more technically advanced version of the F-15E took less than three years. Why? Because they used an existing fighter as the basis.

The F-15 and F-15E are basically the same aircraft with the same number of tails and wings and engines... the comparison there would be the Su-27 and Su-35, and the Su-35 didn't take 3 years... the first Su-27M flew decades ago, but lack of funding and lack of interest from the Russian AF meant it did not progress despite ongoing testing. Of course a lot of its capabilities went into new types like the Su-30MKI, and also probably made the Su-35 even better when they got around to making it so it certainly was not wasted time.

It is a design bureau... it designs new planes and updates existing ones.

How long would a less advanced version of the Su-57 take to develop? My guess is if they really want it, it should be able to start rolling off the production line by 2027. Definitely before 2030.

If it had the same aerodynamic shape but with smaller things like RD-33 based engines and other equipment already developed and ready to go then maybe, but this aircraft has a different centre of gravity, no body lift, it has no horizontal tail surface... its design isn't even finalised yet...

They might fly the prototype and make serious changes.

It makes more sense to take the time to get it right and produce the 4th gen light numbers fighter that is already in low rate serial production to build up numbers.

For all we know a light 5th gen fighter might not be possible because stealth requirements makes cheap impossible and instead of this new light MiG 5th gen fighter or the Su-75, they might just mass produce the S-70 wingman drone to support Su-57 operations.

Well we saw a static with all the bits and pieces - so that part is basically done.

No it isn't.

No one goes from static prototype no matter how compete and shiny, straight to serial production.

Flight testing is essential, and during flight testing changes will be made... changes were made to the Su-57 after flight testing despite all the careful preparation they had before it flew... Sukhoi are a professional design department of OAK and they are not going to **** this up just to please internet junkies who don't like MiG.

So no I'm talking about a Su-75 with Su-57 components. Wink

The profiles I have seen show the Su-75 has a different shaped wing... which makes sense to me because it is less likely to be zipping around at medium to high altitude all the time being king of the hill like the Su-57 will.

From the original Mig-29M's first flight to the Mig-29M2 took 20 years - it took another 11 years for the Mig-35 to get off the ground. So that makes it 31 years to get to the final development - the Mig-35! Maybe that is why you guys don't want to believe that the Su-75 could be fully developed in a few years from now dunno

The time between the first MiG-29M and the MiG-29M2 is irrelevant because they are different aircraft, but lets play that game... what was the delay between the Su-27M and the Su-35... the first Su-27M made its first flight in about 1988 and the Su-35 made its first flight in 2008, so that is 20 years, and it got into service in 2014... considering the export success and revenue being brought in, not to mention funding from the Russian AF for the project I would think Sukhoi could do better.

Fact is you all expected MiG to roll out a light fighter back then - but to everyone's surprise it was a Sukhoi. Wonder what you would say now if it was actually a MiG?

We have seen MiGs models, we don't know where they are at regarding flight testing.

If MiG hadn't flown MiG-35s yet you would be complaining too, but a MiG-35 that had not even flown yet would still be a safer bet than a modified single engined version of the MiG-35 that hadn't flown yet either.

Today's Russia have very different requirements than back in those dark years and it clearly shows in the current defense budget and the urgency around production. Hold on to your hats gents!

I think we can all agree that the Russian military is spoiled for choice and have an array of very good aircraft they can choose to put into serial production if they want.

They are producing Su-30s and Su-35 and Su-34s and Su-57s, and they have made MiG-35s in a very small serial batch, but also MiG-31s getting upgrades and they are funding a replacement for the MiG-31, a replacement for the Tu-95 and Tu-22M3, and there is no doubt they are funding a light 5th gen fighter to operate with Su-35s and Su-57s and S-70s... they are not actually funding the Su-75 because Sukhoi and some foreign investors are funding that for them, which they might or might not benefit from, but I would say they have likely given MiG and probably also Yak funding for a light 5th gen fighter project.

It was recently revealed an AESA radar for a Yak-130... which is nonsense for a LIFT if the in service fighter aircraft don't have similar radar sets.

Maybe the MiG-35 with AESA is entering service in serial production and this AESA is for Yak-130s to train pilots and prepare them for its use, or maybe it is going to be fitted to a Yak-130 based super light cheap fighter in competition to the Su-75.

Who knows.

As an example they cannot just easily take the hydraulics of the Su-57 and put in the Su-75 prototypes. They are different things.
Paradoxically it would be easier to reuse parts from the su-57 in the su-35.

I totally agree, but having said that the Su-57M is supposed to replace the hydraulics with an electric motor based system, which would be lighter and cheaper and safer (no flammable hydraulic fluid, which is often oil based to stop it freezing), but will it be strong enough to do the job over the entire flight envelope?

Don't want to fit a new control system can stops working at high g or low temperatures...

All these things need to be tested.

So, the question is, could the Su-75 be in service in 2027?

Maybe it is possible.

No. It isn't. More likely the first flight might take place in 2026 or 2027, but serial production is a long way away, which is why a ready to produce stopgap aircraft makes sense.

BTW - Long before you construct a wooden mock-up of anything - let alone a fighter. You know beforehand from the design drawings where every single component goes. You know exactly what components you're going to use and all of those components have (or should have) been tested to comply.
You don't just cut and paste things together until everything fits.

But you don't hand that parts list to the factory and start manufacture before the prototype has even flown because flight testing an aerodynamically different aircraft is a very important step that will introduce changes... perhaps fundamental changes to the design.

They are working on replacing the hydraulic system in the Su-57 with an all electric system... such a new electric system would be good for a light fighter to make it lighter and free up a lot of internal space.

I would say serial production of the MIG-35 will give work to MiG and help them with their fifth gen light fighter programme, but it will also give Sukhoi more time to make the Su-75 and Su-57 better.

This is an old photo. Do you guys know what fighter's nose peeps in the background? Some of the hatches have been removed. Do those thingies behind the hatches look anything like vapourware?

You think prototypes don't need access panels to fix things?

When it flys it is a plane. Until then it is an aircraft prototype.

The Su-57 is doing just fine - it's the Mig-35 that's having a hard time getting anywhere. You guys are beginning to sound like the "blind leading the blind"

The Su-57 is doing fine because it was not rushed, they took all the steps and didn't skip things or ignore problems with the intention of fixing them later (F-35?).

They produced MiG-35s in low rate production over the last few years, it is much easier to ramp up existing production than to make some prototypes and get them flying and evaluate their flight performance and then test it against what was expected and then work out any issues or problems and redesign the prototype to fix said problems and then start system and equipment integration and testing, not to mention weapons testing etc etc... and then get around to finalising the design and clearing it for serial production.

It should be much cheaper to operate the MiG-35 than the Su-25. The engines have way higher lifetime. The MiG-35 with latest optical targeting system should be a capable standoff ground attack aircraft.

Not to mention an AESA radar for scanning the front line for moving targets and drones.

They have a few new targeting pods they could use and the MiG-35 has a two part IRST with the IRST above the nose optimised for the upper hemisphere for use against aircraft, but also another IRST under an engine nacelle for use against ground targets. It can also carry targeting pods developed for newer aircraft for hunting and engaging ground targets.

@GarryB

Once again I never said that the Su-75 is a carbon copy of the Su-57.

However if you look closely at both these aircraft just from a structural perspective you will see that - unlike what you say - they have actually used the wing design of the Su-57 for the Su-75. On the modified version they have taken that same design a step further. They have also used the vertical stabilizers and the complete cockpit section as is. The nosecone on the Su-75 is basically an upturned version of the one on the Su-57.

What I said was that they used some components from the Su-57 design (as above) - including the engine and undercarriage. As for internal systems and subsystems - we'll I would bet that most of those are copied straight from the Su-57 design.

BTW - we all know why it took so long to develop aircraft throughout the 90's. However my point is that all those designs are now dated - and this includes the Su-35 as well as the Mig-35.

The F-15EX is indeed a pimped up somewhat stealthy F-15, and yes the design is dated - but like the Mig-35, the Su-35, the F-15EX IS NOT obsolete. There is a difference you know.

The sole reason why the US is buying retro is because they can't put the F-22 back in production - so they will use this interim design until their 6th gen is available.

Also their 5th gen fighters proved to be extremely expensive to produce (never mind maintain). If they want them to be more affordable, they will have to buy Chinese copies, but as you know, the US is planning for a war against the PRC - which complicates matter somewhat.

AND quite notably the very first F-15EX was delivered to a Air National Guard unit in Portland a couple of days ago

According to the wing commander:

This is the first time, to my knowledge, that an Air National Guard base got a major weapon system before the active component. It’s a super big deal.”

Oh and I just noticed from the same source that Native Americans that are serving in the military can now have long hair and wear eagle feathers as head gear - now that is pretty cool!

@GarryB It's funny to see you say it's not a real plane because it foesn't fly. You said exactly the opposite for the two Mig models that are just toys exposed in a meeting.
Su-75 has at least a real 1:1 prototype.

Isos wrote:@GarryB It's funny to see you say it's not a real plane because it foesn't fly. You said exactly the opposite for the two Mig models that are just toys exposed in a meeting.
Su-75 has at least a real 1:1 prototype.

That's because those are models from MiG