MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

The design was inspired and based on the F-16. So there was no single engine Mig-29 as you suggested?

Even if it was a carbon copy of an F-16 that would make it a single engined MiG-29.

That is what the F-16 is a light cheap numbers fourth gen fighter.

Funny that you have mentioned the cost experience, as Gripen is being advertised as ultra cheap to operate. And this is the main advertisement strategy they pushed for decades, in all their bids.

Not to mention the religious dogma that obviously being a single engined fighter it must be cheaper to operate than any twin engined fighter...

Is it an accident that the list of most expensive planes on the planet I posted above includes the three main single engined fighters of the west... F-16, Gripen, and F-35... is anyone actually shocked at all?

But no, the MiG-35 is crap because it is old and because it has two engines.

The chart I posted on the previous page shows the operational costs of flying the F-35... and this is the A model, not the more expensive naval versions, was $67,550 per hour... for a single engined fighter. For an extra $2,838 the B-52 with its 8 engines is supported per flight hour... not much extra really... working on those other 7 engines... unless modern engines with digital control systems that manage their use and warn of problems, are not that hard to maintain and service...

What all the Mig-35 fans seems to completely ignore is that the Su-75 is based on an existing Su-57 that has been completely developed into stage one production.

Yet aerodynamically it is a different aircraft... the wings don't even look the same and things like body lift that teh Su-57 would benefit from are not relevant when it comes to the Su-75 design.



This image is not real because one of these aircraft can't fly yet but you can see the wings are different and there is no horizontal tail surface so the flight model is going to be completely different too.

The Su-75 is going to benefit from using Su-57 parts that are already n production but they likely have not finalised the actual serial production design yet and likely wont until they have done some actual flight testing and checked its performance in the air... it is not the case that it gets airborne and lands without crashing they put it directly into serial production.

In comparison the MiG-35 has done all that and is in low rate serial production already.

I am not saying they should cancel the 5th gen light fighter programme, but they need to take their time and get it right and test it against other potential rivals too including MiG and Yak and any other potential competitors.

They introduced and produced the Su-35 at a time when they could have said... aw **** it... we spent all this money on the Su-57... why waste it producing an old Su-27 upgrade.

By making Su-35s they got capable heavy fighters into service and could test some equipment they would eventually put on the Su-57 like the wing mounted AESA anti stealth radars they have. Other systems will have been tested too.

Heavy hydraulics and pipes replaced with electric motors is another way to make the aircraft safer and also lighter and cheaper, that can be applied to 4th and 5th gen designs to make them better.

It took 10 years from the first flight to production of the first Su-57. Not too bad considering where this project came from. It's history is marked with some major delays, development- and funding issues. All that is sorted now.

If making 5th gen fighters was easy everyone would be doing it... instead the US and Russia and China are making them and everyone else has a model or drawing they are talking up.

Lets take the F-15 for example. It took about 4-5 years to get the aircraft into service since its debut. The far more technically advanced version of the F-15E took less than three years. Why? Because they used an existing fighter as the basis.

The F-15 and F-15E are basically the same aircraft with the same number of tails and wings and engines... the comparison there would be the Su-27 and Su-35, and the Su-35 didn't take 3 years... the first Su-27M flew decades ago, but lack of funding and lack of interest from the Russian AF meant it did not progress despite ongoing testing. Of course a lot of its capabilities went into new types like the Su-30MKI, and also probably made the Su-35 even better when they got around to making it so it certainly was not wasted time.

It is a design bureau... it designs new planes and updates existing ones.

How long would a less advanced version of the Su-57 take to develop? My guess is if they really want it, it should be able to start rolling off the production line by 2027. Definitely before 2030.

If it had the same aerodynamic shape but with smaller things like RD-33 based engines and other equipment already developed and ready to go then maybe, but this aircraft has a different centre of gravity, no body lift, it has no horizontal tail surface... its design isn't even finalised yet...

They might fly the prototype and make serious changes.

It makes more sense to take the time to get it right and produce the 4th gen light numbers fighter that is already in low rate serial production to build up numbers.

For all we know a light 5th gen fighter might not be possible because stealth requirements makes cheap impossible and instead of this new light MiG 5th gen fighter or the Su-75, they might just mass produce the S-70 wingman drone to support Su-57 operations.

Well we saw a static with all the bits and pieces - so that part is basically done.

No it isn't.

No one goes from static prototype no matter how compete and shiny, straight to serial production.

Flight testing is essential, and during flight testing changes will be made... changes were made to the Su-57 after flight testing despite all the careful preparation they had before it flew... Sukhoi are a professional design department of OAK and they are not going to **** this up just to please internet junkies who don't like MiG.

So no I'm talking about a Su-75 with Su-57 components. Wink

The profiles I have seen show the Su-75 has a different shaped wing... which makes sense to me because it is less likely to be zipping around at medium to high altitude all the time being king of the hill like the Su-57 will.

From the original Mig-29M's first flight to the Mig-29M2 took 20 years - it took another 11 years for the Mig-35 to get off the ground. So that makes it 31 years to get to the final development - the Mig-35! Maybe that is why you guys don't want to believe that the Su-75 could be fully developed in a few years from now dunno

The time between the first MiG-29M and the MiG-29M2 is irrelevant because they are different aircraft, but lets play that game... what was the delay between the Su-27M and the Su-35... the first Su-27M made its first flight in about 1988 and the Su-35 made its first flight in 2008, so that is 20 years, and it got into service in 2014... considering the export success and revenue being brought in, not to mention funding from the Russian AF for the project I would think Sukhoi could do better.

Fact is you all expected MiG to roll out a light fighter back then - but to everyone's surprise it was a Sukhoi. Wonder what you would say now if it was actually a MiG?

We have seen MiGs models, we don't know where they are at regarding flight testing.

If MiG hadn't flown MiG-35s yet you would be complaining too, but a MiG-35 that had not even flown yet would still be a safer bet than a modified single engined version of the MiG-35 that hadn't flown yet either.

Today's Russia have very different requirements than back in those dark years and it clearly shows in the current defense budget and the urgency around production. Hold on to your hats gents!

I think we can all agree that the Russian military is spoiled for choice and have an array of very good aircraft they can choose to put into serial production if they want.

They are producing Su-30s and Su-35 and Su-34s and Su-57s, and they have made MiG-35s in a very small serial batch, but also MiG-31s getting upgrades and they are funding a replacement for the MiG-31, a replacement for the Tu-95 and Tu-22M3, and there is no doubt they are funding a light 5th gen fighter to operate with Su-35s and Su-57s and S-70s... they are not actually funding the Su-75 because Sukhoi and some foreign investors are funding that for them, which they might or might not benefit from, but I would say they have likely given MiG and probably also Yak funding for a light 5th gen fighter project.

It was recently revealed an AESA radar for a Yak-130... which is nonsense for a LIFT if the in service fighter aircraft don't have similar radar sets.

Maybe the MiG-35 with AESA is entering service in serial production and this AESA is for Yak-130s to train pilots and prepare them for its use, or maybe it is going to be fitted to a Yak-130 based super light cheap fighter in competition to the Su-75.

Who knows.

As an example they cannot just easily take the hydraulics of the Su-57 and put in the Su-75 prototypes. They are different things.
Paradoxically it would be easier to reuse parts from the su-57 in the su-35.

I totally agree, but having said that the Su-57M is supposed to replace the hydraulics with an electric motor based system, which would be lighter and cheaper and safer (no flammable hydraulic fluid, which is often oil based to stop it freezing), but will it be strong enough to do the job over the entire flight envelope?

Don't want to fit a new control system can stops working at high g or low temperatures...

All these things need to be tested.

So, the question is, could the Su-75 be in service in 2027?

Maybe it is possible.

No. It isn't. More likely the first flight might take place in 2026 or 2027, but serial production is a long way away, which is why a ready to produce stopgap aircraft makes sense.

BTW - Long before you construct a wooden mock-up of anything - let alone a fighter. You know beforehand from the design drawings where every single component goes. You know exactly what components you're going to use and all of those components have (or should have) been tested to comply.
You don't just cut and paste things together until everything fits.

But you don't hand that parts list to the factory and start manufacture before the prototype has even flown because flight testing an aerodynamically different aircraft is a very important step that will introduce changes... perhaps fundamental changes to the design.

They are working on replacing the hydraulic system in the Su-57 with an all electric system... such a new electric system would be good for a light fighter to make it lighter and free up a lot of internal space.

I would say serial production of the MIG-35 will give work to MiG and help them with their fifth gen light fighter programme, but it will also give Sukhoi more time to make the Su-75 and Su-57 better.

This is an old photo. Do you guys know what fighter's nose peeps in the background? Some of the hatches have been removed. Do those thingies behind the hatches look anything like vapourware?

You think prototypes don't need access panels to fix things?

When it flys it is a plane. Until then it is an aircraft prototype.

The Su-57 is doing just fine - it's the Mig-35 that's having a hard time getting anywhere. You guys are beginning to sound like the "blind leading the blind"

The Su-57 is doing fine because it was not rushed, they took all the steps and didn't skip things or ignore problems with the intention of fixing them later (F-35?).

They produced MiG-35s in low rate production over the last few years, it is much easier to ramp up existing production than to make some prototypes and get them flying and evaluate their flight performance and then test it against what was expected and then work out any issues or problems and redesign the prototype to fix said problems and then start system and equipment integration and testing, not to mention weapons testing etc etc... and then get around to finalising the design and clearing it for serial production.

It should be much cheaper to operate the MiG-35 than the Su-25. The engines have way higher lifetime. The MiG-35 with latest optical targeting system should be a capable standoff ground attack aircraft.

Not to mention an AESA radar for scanning the front line for moving targets and drones.

They have a few new targeting pods they could use and the MiG-35 has a two part IRST with the IRST above the nose optimised for the upper hemisphere for use against aircraft, but also another IRST under an engine nacelle for use against ground targets. It can also carry targeting pods developed for newer aircraft for hunting and engaging ground targets.