MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

I have not seen a single mention of the Su-75 in both...

It is the anti MiG faction who claim the MiG-35 is dead and the Su-75 should be produced in numbers instead.

As you point out, the Su-75 has never flown... it might be 5 tons overweight and have an unreliable engine that causes the first flying prototype to crash and burn... the idea behind designing by super computer is not perfect... you still have to build it and fly it and test it and make lots of changes.

The MiG-35 is serial.

The Su-75 is more surreal than serial.

That's because I'm not interested in it at all, as it is a.t.m. just little more that a paper project (and the same I could say about the MiG scale models, sorry...).

I am of the same mind... the Russian AF needs a numbers aircraft that is affordable and can be made in large numbers to fill gaps and collect information live over the battlefield. The Su-75 is no where near flying let alone serial production... for Su-57 that was about 10 years without major problems.

The MIG-35 meets the goals it was designed for. The very existence of the Su-75 project proves Sukhoi sees those goals make sense... they had a single engined version of the Su-27 to meet the same light 4th gen fighter that was also rejected... they even suggested variants of it as a LIFT and a light carrier aircraft/carrier trainer aircraft.

They are thing for the future, no one of them would affect the results of current conflict.

I rather suspect this conflict is going to be resolved within the next 8-10 months if not before... Kiev is going to default on loans and the west giving more money and loans to bankrupt country... well there is stupid and there is stupid.

I suspect the west thinks they can draw this out and eventually get a deal from Putin where they keep their assets in the Ukraine and can extract the money they put in to this project in resources that Kiev manages to keep.

I don't think Putin wants to be nice any more and is more interested in the Ukrainian people which were in the process of getting gangbanged by western companies, and buried in a debt spiral of the likes the west keeps the third world slowly drowning under...

What I was trying to do is to try a RATIONAL and hope UNBIASED explanation of the reasons because they are not putting in serial production NOW a plane that has completed its own development phase.

Don't expect rational from these people... MiG is evil and in competent and never came up with a decent idea.

Why couldn't they just make the MIG-29 better by making it lighter and single engined and then it would make more sense as the light fighter partner to the Su-27... and when I point out they did we get told I said Russian and should have said Soviet.

Then they suggest the Yak-130 should be made into a light fighter because it really is light, except the things it needs added to make it a decent fighter like a rather more powerful engine and modern AESA radar and self defence avionics... all these things will massively increase the price which was not actually cheap in the first place... which is why MiG is making UTS... and you would end up with a not so cheap fighter inferior to the MiG-35 and not stealthy either.

That MiG single engined model is perfect... it is LIFT sized, is stealthy with internal weapon bays... is single engined and presumably very light, but it is only a model.

Well the  SU-75 doesn't fly so it might as well just be a model too.

That's because I'm not interested in it at all, as it is a.t.m. just little more that a paper project (and the same I could say about the MiG scale models, sorry...).

The thing about next generation models is that they take time to develop and neither is an option for now, which I why I am saying the MiG-35 is the only game in town for the next 8-10 years most likely.

In 8-10 years time these MiG models will have had rather more testing and most likely be either a viable option or be cancelled.

The Su-75 should also be flying by then hopefully.

But by then they could have produced 200 MiG-35s to fill the gaps and get the job done.

The S-70 Okhotnik -B is however completely another thing as AFAIK it is almost ready and already working toward its own serial production so we have to put it in any reasoning involving ALLOCATION OF PRODUCTIVE RESOURCES.

That is the thing though... it is completely another thing. Being a wingman drone can you treat it like a wingman for another fighter, and therefore a force multiplier, or is it a management distraction for the pilot that might get them killed worrying about managing their operation instead of managing their own flight and mission.

Will they boost numbers, or will they get in the way and just be a ridiculous dead end.

They wont be cheap either, so their crash rate in normal operations will be interesting to see... too high and they might just be cruise missiles that can hit multiple targets and can return home to be rearmed and refuelled if they survive.

Load them up with Kh-31 and Kh-58 ARMs and R-77 and R-37 missiles to take out enemy air defence and enemy aircraft respectively and have them fly high altitude above Su-34s on low altitude strike missions for instance.

Or reverse it and have them fly low with air to ground ordinance and have Su-57s and Su-35s flying high in overwatch positions.

They are not supersonic so glide bomb platforms would not be ideal, but they have a range of standoff weapons including Grom they can use anyway.

I think this should rather be moved to the more appropriate thread about the Su-75, but I do find your wording quite amusing. Laughing

This is the MiG's first attempt at the Mig-29 design (2nd model). The first model had straight wings and was the one that was initially presented in front of the council for the PFI program.

This is relevant to the MiG-35s future.

As you show pre first flight designs are flexible and can change massively from concept to serial production and the Su-75 is at the point where lots of changes and modifications could be made to the design to fix foreseen and unforeseen problems as they are identified.

The Su-75 might not fly for ten years, and the Su-57 didn't enter serial production for 10 years after its first flight.

The Su-75 is not a scaled down Su-57... it is oriented more for multirole fighter and ground attack aircraft.... like the MiG-35... so its development is going to take quite a bit of time and wont be as simple as Sukhoi clearly want to pretend.

They are selling a product so of course they will be pessimistic in regard to how much it will cost and how long it will take to get flying.

The problems with the Su-75... or lack of problems really... is that it is a paper plane so like the Gripen or F-35 they can say the problems will be fixed and not cheap to buy but cheap to operate and able to kill Flankers.

The MiG-35 has problems but it is much closer to mass serial production than the Su-75... probably by a decade... all they need is an order.

It is also going to take time to revise the Russian Air Force structure to reintegrate what used to be frontal aviation with lots of light fighters and strike aircraft like the MiG-21 and MiG-23 and MiG-27 and also the Su-17 Fitter family of numbers aircraft that was widely deployed and used to support ground operations.

The digitalisation of the military should enable the MiG-35 and the light 5th gen fighter when it is ready to integrate with the Army to be able to deal with enemy forces in great numbers... would be better to start that now than wait 10 years.

They have yet to decide on stealth... the Flanker family and the Su-57 are being produced at the same time, so if they are not replacing the 4th gen fighters with 5 gen fighters in the heavy category then it really does not make sense to have an all light 5th gen fighter force to support them.

Many roles simply don't require stealth, for which older designs that can be upgraded with the new systems and equipment and of course weapons of the new generation should be able to do a better job.

When Su-75s are attacking targets using external pylons then what difference is there to using much cheaper MiG-35s with external weapons too?

Probably bugger all difference.

I doubt it will start serial production before 2030. Even if everything proceeded smoothly it would take at least three years to get it to production. Taking account delays it is probably double that.

Agree... and would add that the normal ratio for an attack is 3 to one, which means for each enemy you have three sets of eyes and three guns that can shoot.

When everyone is carrying long range AAMs then having one plane with 12 missiles that cost 30K per hour operational costs is not an advantage over three planes with 8 missiles costing 10K each... The three lighter planes can operate together or spread out and can operate in different directions at the same time offering more coverage and something that one enemy long range missile can't take out with one shot.

They are not going to get AESA radars into service till they pay for it... no knight in shining armour is going to order planes and then fix the problems and get them up to expectations for the Russian AF... that is something they have to do themselves... but they are tight conservative bastards... which is why Sukhoi does so well because they really don't innovate much unless they have to.

Compared to the actual production Mig-29. I would say "severely redesigned" is rather more appropriate here...

You are confusing things unnecessarily.

You can claim the Su-75 is based on the Su-57 all you want... the reality is that it uses parts and design and production technology from the Su-57 but is a different aircraft with a different design and will need to be developed and perfected like any other NEW aircraft.

A plastic model for an early design of MiG-29 compared with the serial production proves our point... the design process involves trying different shapes and structures and solutions to work out advantages and problems with each design choice so a wide variety of shapes and models makes good sense, but tells us nothing about what the serial model will eventually look like because design is compromise and some factors make good design solutions not so good.

The fact is that what was shown at MAKs likely wont be what enters serial production and that might be 10 years from now.

The point Lancelot made is that the Su-75 has not flown yet and is already changing... which is normal of course, but suggesting it is anywhere close to serial production is ridiculous.

Even if it had two engines and was a perfectly scaled down Su-57 it would still need to be test flown... and it does not and is not.

The Su-75 is a long way from serial production... just like those models MiG showed are likely also a way from a flying prototype.

The Su-75 is going to be a fighter made by a committee so I wouldn't hold my breath... the problems ahead for the design are more likely political and commercial...

India might join the project and Russia can use rupees to fund production in India... make it even cheaper... and delay it 20 years.  

Did MiG touch you in a bad place PD?

The Mig-35 fan club is regurgitating the same BS over and over again - so it's really pointless. I've actually said it before - we should know what the future holds for both these programs in the very near future.

If the Russian military wants a modern numbers fighter to increase numbers over the battlefield the MiG-35 is closer to mass serial production than anything 5th gen in vapourware land.

Please give us the hard evidence that the Mig-35 is "much cheaper" than the Su-75.

It isn't right now because Dreams are free.

There is no way to work out how much the Su-75 will actually cost operationally until you get some into service... even just say 6 aircraft...

Obviously only having 6 aircraft is going to make support and spares supply more expensive because it is hobby level operations and the numbers fighter is going to be needed in rather large numbers to make any sense.

But the Su-75 hasn't even flown yet so we don't even know what it will look like let alone how much it will cost to support.

The mig-29M sold recently at export costed as much as su-30mK2, some 40 million $. If we beleive sukhoi, su-75 will be cheaper than this but that needs to be proved. I don't beleive they can make the su-75 that cheap considering it uses su-57 technology. Maybe it was the price of russian version.

Export prices are where the Russians make their profits, the profit margins are much larger with exports and often include extras like support agreements and weapons to go with the aircraft, while the export price is often the contract price divided by the number of airframes.

Based on that India bought 36 Rafales for 8.4 billion US dollars... so even if MiG-35s was 60 million per aircraft you could get 140 MiG-35s for that price... are you going to pretend that a Russian operated MiG-35 working with Russian air defences and Su-35s and Su-57s is going to be inferior at that ratio?

The MiG-35 with AESA radar, which it would get with a full serial production order even if it hasn't got it at the moment, and R-37M long range AAMs is in what way inferior to the Rafale?

If you want to say 36 Rafales are better than 140 MiG-35s then I know you are dreaming... especially when backed up by modern Russian air defence systems and the current Russian AF.

At those prices I would rather go with a su-30mk2 over the mig any day. Mig-35 with its aesa radar will be even more expensive of easily 5 million $ but it add alot over outdated mechanical radars found in mig-29.

The MiG-35 with an AESA radar might cost the same as the Su-30 for the Russian military to buy... the high tech stuff it is equipped with is not cheap and the prices will only go down with serial mass production... so the first ones might be the same price as the Su-30... but it will be rather cheaper to operate and can operate from smaller airfields and also from motorways, as shown by the Ukrainians use of their MiG-29s.

The numbers aircraft can be super cheap... they could have gone for the cheaper option of the MiG-29M, but they chose the better equipped MiG-35.

The AESA radar for the MiG is like any other product... you don't buy it, you don't invest in mass production then it is not going to get better or cheaper and the bugs are not going to be found and sorted... it is going to remain immature and you are going to have to deal with all the evolution and development in a 5th gen fighter with the AESA instead.

Perhaps it's time for Klimov to try and develop an RD-34/5 or something?

They will likely be developing a new 5th gen engine for the single and twin engined new 5th gen fighters MiG is working on.

Irbis-E PESA radar can track targets at 400 km+. A 3m2 target can be detected at 350 km compared to the MiG's 120 km for 5m2 target. These are export specs as you say. How about the N036 Belka AESA then! Don't worry I'll spare you the embarrassment

Obviously the ability to track targets on the moon is critical to the usefulness of all new fighters... complaining that a light fighter does not have the radar power of a heavy fighter is just being a dick... so no real surprise.

The mig-29 with its smaller legs wouldn't have done any better.

Hahahaha.... because obviously the ability of an aircraft to survive over a modern battlefield is flight range?

The ukro migs are practice targets for the su-35. A mig-29M would still loose to a su-35.

Yeah, that is how things work.... that is the same mentality that the Americans used with their Abrams... send them 30... that will be enough for them to push through the Russian lines and get to Crimea because each Abrams tank can destroy hundreds or thousands of Russian tanks and they wont get hit at all...

Planes don't kill planes... missiles kill planes, and the MiG-29M or MiG-35 can carry any air to air missile the Su-35 can carry.

Su-35 is the real beast. Rest is shit including mig-29s and su-30/34.

Repeat for the slow learners... Russia can't afford a fleet of 800 Su-35s... the operational costs alone would not allow it.

Even the US couldn't afford an all F-15 or an all F-22 fleet... it is just stupid to even try.

We must make a distinction, no one is saying ZHUK will achieve similar detection ranges to Byelka or even Irbis, but then again that’s not the point

But that is how children think... if it is not the best then it is shit and they don't want it.

That is why the F-35 is the way it is... they tried to make it even better than the F-22 and it simply isn't, but the costs go up with trying that sort of thing.

The MIG35 is not a panacea , it’s just a multirole aircraft with very modern systems onboard that will raise the qualitative level of the VKS

It is available now. It is not going to replace the Su-35 or Su-57 and it wont break the new light 5th gen fighters they are developing.

It fills a gap sooner rather than having a gap for a decade or more.

It is going back to the 1970-80s when they had money and it made sense to do things this way with MiG-29s and Su-27s.

It's a huge advantage in BVR fight. More fuel is also a huge advantage allowing more tactics, more afterburners, more flight at low range.

The MiG-35 does not even need to see the target it is engaging with its own radar... it can be operating 100km ahead of an Su-35 and it can climb and accelerate and launch an R-37M and then turn and run away at top speed while the Su-35 monitors the target and sends any course corrections the missile might need to get to the target area.

Having lots of fuel on board is a bad thing... the extra weight is not good for acceleration and performance and flying much longer missions leads to stress and fatigue.

Operating closer to the front line flying shorter missions makes rather more sense.

Mig-35 would be smashed like a moskito and even if not the su-35 could push him to use all its fuel before coming at it base making it crash.

Which western aircraft resembles the Su-35?

Just like against Georgia in 2006 they still can't jamm effectively soviet made systems.

Soviet systems are just better than western systems, but they lost aircraft... many of which were own goals in 2008.

This has been an excellent learning experience for the Russians and their forces are much better for that experience. They are making changes and developing new systems and weapons and equipment.

10 years ago the criticism of the Russian military was that it was all untested... but ironically you could level the same criticism against western technology because it had only been tested against third world countries that were not supported by super powers that could give them modern capable systems to defend themselves.

These days Leopards and Abrams and Challangers... well they are clearly not invincible are they?

The Leclercs didn't even turn up to play.

The claimed losses of the SU-30/34 probably do not amount to 0.1% of the combat sorties made by these aircraft, and Ukraine had more AD per km2 than any country in the world except Israel, so there are no terrible losses and no weak enemies here.

I would say that some of the losses will be own goals too... air defence is complex and difficult at the best of times and identifying flying targets going out and coming back is not simple and obvious.

The claim losses are around 20% of available aircraft. Soviet systems should pose 0 threat to a russian sukhoi equipped with russiaan jammers. They should know those systems and be able to destroy them easily. Yet they didn't and S-300 are still used today by Ukraine. Their SEAD sucks.

Soviet air defence systems are the best in the world and are designed to work on their own and together as a system and will remain a threat throughout any conflict until they can be hunted down and destroyed individually... western systems, in comparison seem to actually be ineffective.

Patriot is supposed to be able to shoot down everything, but doesn't seem to be able to shoot down anything except transport planes with prisoners on board.

HATO wouldn't fly helicopters into Kosovo because the risk of MANPADS, yet Russian helicopters have been operating in the Ukraine and Syria with tens of thousands of MANPADS of all types supplied openly by western countries...

The Houthies fired some drones and missiles at the mighty US Navy and the US Navy and other amazing powerful HATO navies that were operating there ran away... it was too dangerous for them to remain...

Saudi Aircraft were also shot down in numbers by the Houthies that didn't have anything like the air defence equipment that Kiev had... in numbers and in types.

99.9% of the time Russian fighters can bomb Ukraine with impunity, EW is working fine.

If the Ukrainians were fucking idiots Russian fighters might be safe, but they have the full support of HATO, in terms of their much vaunted C4STAR which they never fucking shut up about and a steady stream of not just MANPADS but ground launched AMRAAMs and German AAM in ground launched versions the German army doesn't even operate yet, not to mention Patriot and now supposedly HAWK missiles.

I would say their performance is either pathetic or the Russian performance is astounding and I suspect it is more the latter than the former... dislike them as much as you want they are not total fools.

The Ukrainians were not badly equipped at the start of this conflict and they lost most of it... which was replaced by the entire west hoovering up equipment and systems and weapons of their own and also in the rest of the world from any country that would sell to them likely at super inflated prices. Now they have run out of most of that and are on the bones of their bum so to speak using HATO reject crap that should have been scrapped rather than stored because it is clearly worse than nothing.

So this video of the MiG-35 flying around... is it just me or is that nose radome more like the small one for an AESA radar than the original radome for older radars?