MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

He calculated export ORDERS, so yes - pending ones as well.
A funny memory - Gripens for Hungary, all 14 pcs, were produced using old stocked JAS39A parts.
Never heard anyone yapping about how retarded it is, if compared to the things RSK did just same time.
It is interesting because not everyone is aware of the fact, that most of the produced pieces represents a 90s standard, with CRT based displays etc.
People have a trend to apply pics from commercials to the whole picture, which ends up in being unaware of the realities.
Talking about "F-16" every fanboy sees a shiny&blinky version made as technology demonstrator and never accepted by anyone.
Straight from the LM brochure.
While 90% of the existing fleet has a cockpit with one CRT display for radar indications ...
This is how the myths are being created.

Su34 is a great FAB truck and PGM carrier

Although other platforms can do this, to me the utility of a fighterbomber comes from the ability to engage enemy air defenses and properly defend oneself through a combination of RWR-ECM

Su34 has been ambushed countless times, most recently being saved by ground air defense units who for the first time in history of war - intercepted a Patriot interceptor with their own interceptor missiles

I’ve never heard of that, and is a testament to PVO air defenses and IADS

But the Russian air defenses only narrowly saved the su34 from getting splashed by PAC3 , and the pilot was totally dependent on situational awareness by radio from the air defense battery

His RWR and ECM didn’t do shit, and he had no MAWS either - this basically means that the su34 is blind in its current form, to tackle integrated air defenses

The only reason the platform reputation is alive is because of FAB, without which it would be a useless plane. If su34 RWR, ECM was upgraded along with MAWS with UV sensors and DIRCM/self protection suite it would be much more survivable

Look at the most recent scenario, su34 still has to fly within 40km to launch FAB, and can still be engaged by air defenses, granted KH31 allowed the cover aircraft to destroy NASAMS radar, but the other su34 really struggled to escape PAC3 and had it not been for ground air defenses, would be dead now

This is the main problem, either the MOD/VKS/Sukhoi can’t follow through on a modernization program for whatever reason - cost, bureaucracy, or lack of these components

Either way, it is susceptible to ambush and that’s an issue even with FAB as the most recent scenario showed

lancelot wrote:

Mir wrote:

lancelot wrote:They sold 60 MiG-29M/M2 (50 for export). That is better than the Grippen ever did.

I count nearly a hundred export orders for the Grippen - including 12 leased?

Are you counting undelivered planes? Are you counting E and F variants, which are basically a modification of the original airplane? Just like the MiG-35 is relative to MiG-29M.

I hope you see what I mean here.

I get it but you did say "Grippen" and nothing else. "Nearly a hundred" is everything that has been ordered and on their books as ordered. Brazil is still waiting for a couple of Grippens to be delivered.

Arkanghelsk wrote:
His RWR and ECM didn’t do shit, and he had no MAWS either - this basically means that the su34 is blind in its current form, to tackle integrated air defenses

This is just BS. We don't know what really happened there, but the Su-34 is well and fully equipped to defend itself. Probably better than any other fighter bomber in it's class. Shit happens some times - for whatever reason.

I’d like to see automated self protection suite , with battle management capability on datalink to share threat picture with ground radars and AWACS

I’d like to see MAWS with UV sensors and automated self protection like Vitebsk or President S

F15EX will have MAWS , and will carry AIM260 at some point

So the pre eminent air to air threat for the VKS will be F15 , not F22 , not F35 and not NGAD as it got cancelled

You can't prevent monopoly. Sukhoi was picked as the winner in the 90s because the su-27 had everything the mig-29 but in bigger so better suited for their huge territory.

In the 1990s the bigger aircraft of the two made sense because there was no money for a lot of pilots and a lot of planes so you buy the bigger longer ranged more expensive type and be thankful there will be no conflicts where that will matter.

Today, money is less of a problem but the heavy Sukhois cost more money to operate than the MiG-35. The MiG-35 was intended as a numbers aircraft and that is what they need now.

They still need heavy Sukhois, but having only Sukhois would make the air coverage weak and operation of the air force expensive... even the US had the F-16 and F-18 and F-35 as lighter cheaper numbers aircraft because having only F-15s, F-14s, and F-22 would be too expensive for the US... who love to piss money away on shit they don't need.

Developement and production are so expensive that you can't invest in a company like mig that will produce 24 jet in tge next 15 years at best. Sukhoi gets huge orders so it's worth investing in it.

MiG is a design company that is a division of UAC/OAK. Sukhoi is also a design company that is a different division of OAK/UAC.

The money generated by each division can be used where it is needed.

Sukhoi doesn't cut any edge and produces high quality jets and now even civilian planes.

They filled their Superjet with western parts and western engines... what bastards...

Su-75 is a creation of their own cause they figured out a single engine will be better and cheaper than the su-57 for most countries around the world. Something the engineer at mig should have found out when doing nothing at office.

MiG already worked on the izd 33 in the 1980s and it was rejected by the Russian AF. The current light 5th gen fighter MiG are working on is a single engine type too.

But you are still not getting it. The SU-75 is not supposed to work on its own... it is supposed to work together with the Su-57... otherwise why the **** would a country care if it shares parts with the Su-57 if they don't buy the Su-57?

Are you sure?

Perhaps English is not your first language...

When the managers of the Sukhoi department become the managers of UAC/OAK,

Can be interpreted and meant many different ways and I suspect the way you are interpreting it is as:

"When (all) the managers of the Sukhoi department become the (all) managers of UAC/OAK,"

But I didn't say or mean that. I does not require all UAC managers to be ex sukhoi managers for there to be bias or influence and you provided proof that there is influence and bias.

So when did all this happen?

You are cancelling MiG... what else do you think will happen?

Tupolev and Ilyusion next?

I think Bulatov has gone soft. Probably intended to give MiG a chance to get back in the game.

Makes you wonder though, why they need Su-34 when an enlarged strike/interceptor Su-57 could be developed for the role...

From a fu#cked up Isos idea fix he repeats like some mantra.

Children in the west think if you lose an aircraft then it must be shit.

In war you lose aircraft, and tanks, and all sorts of things.

Some platforms have more dangerous missions than others so some will be more likely to be lost than others, but of course if you listen to the enemy reports of losses then your understanding is going to be skewed.

The fact of the matter is that the only planes you never lose are the ones you never use.

The cost in soldiers on the ground for not using Su-34s and Su-25s would be enormous, so of course you use both types and others to damage the enemy and destroy his people and his resources. An Su-34 might get shot down here and an Su-25 might get shot down there, but the damage they are doing is out of all proportion to their losses so using them just makes sense.

And the cry babies saying they should not be losing anything can continue to cry... war is hell... and not for children.

Gripen does not make sense to be bought from a customer point of view. You ends up being dependent from at least Sweden, UK and US, and its acquisition will not even give you brownie points for the US protection and immunities (like those big acquisition of American products from Saudi Arabia).

Its selling point is low cost operations, so it is cheaper to own than other types... and from the sounds of things that is a lie.

The only reason the platform reputation is alive is because of FAB, without which it would be a useless plane. If su34 RWR, ECM was upgraded along with MAWS with UV sensors and DIRCM/self protection suite it would be much more survivable

They developed all that stuff for the Su-35 and Su-57... makes you wonder why they don't bother with their premier strike platform.

Either way, it is susceptible to ambush and that’s an issue even with FAB as the most recent scenario showed

To be fair any aircraft would be susceptible to ambush... BUK and Viking and Pantsir can all operate in optical mode and be sneaky...

So the pre eminent air to air threat for the VKS will be F15 , not F22 , not F35 and not NGAD as it got cancelled

How unstealthy it looks... hilarious after decades of BS about stealth this and stealth that....

GarryB wrote:Perhaps English is not your first language...

No it's not but I'm fully bilingual.

But at times I'm shocked at how bad your English can be! Aren't you supposed to be some kind of teacher?
Anyway here is a short English lesson:

GarryB wrote:When the managers of the Sukhoi department become the managers of UAC/OAK

In English "managers" is plural - which is more than one. In the above sentence you've used the word "managers" twice.

Alexey Bulatov is the only "manager" at UAC from Sukhoi. The rest are from elsewhere - mainly people with extensive business experience.

So either your English is bad OR you are spreading disinformation. Take your pick.

Perhaps it is fake news rather than poor grammar?

GarryB wrote:MiG already worked on the izd 33 in the 1980s and it was rejected by the Russian AF.

As I've said before - the Izd 33 project was cancelled back in 1986 by the Soviet AF. It never made it into the 90's.

GarryB wrote:You are cancelling MiG... what else do you think will happen?

I'm afraid MiG is cancelling themselves - so to speak.

Mir wrote:

GarryB wrote:You are cancelling MiG... what else do you think will happen?

I'm afraid MiG is cancelling themselves - so to speak.

MiG no longer exists as an independent company. It's now part of UAC. Whatever workforce remains (after massive layoffs some years ago) is busy with MiG-41 upgrades and designing MiG PAK-DA. None of us knows of other projects. Though according to a TASS interview (I'll try to search again for sources), the MiG design bureau will be an independent design team within Sukhoi for an internal competition, as it was called.
So finally GarryB can be happy - Su-75 is going to have a MiG touch.

Arkanghelsk wrote:I’d like to see automated self protection suite , with battle management capability on datalink to share threat picture with ground radars and AWACS

I’d like to see MAWS with UV sensors and automated self protection like Vitebsk or President S

F15EX will have MAWS , and will carry AIM260 at some point

So the pre eminent air to air threat for the VKS will be F15 , not F22 , not F35 and not NGAD as it got cancelled

Neither of the 6th gen fighters was cancelled - NGAD was forced to reduce costs. More than 1000 F-35s have already been made. Production is 100+ per year. So it is still a real threat for VVS (Russian Air Force) - F-15s are unlikely to be flying in contested areas first - they are like artillery for air defense, delivering heavy punches from long distances. On the line of contact, F-35s are going to be there, accompanied by drones.

GarryB wrote:
You are cancelling MiG... what else do you think will happen?
Tupolev and Ilyusion next?

No, whit the fusion of the two conglomerates (the one lead by Mig with the one led by Sukhoi but having already absorbed others OKB/NAPO) in a single national entity situation for the weakest ones has improved.
The previous structure with several state controlled companies responsable for the whole productive circle and being in direct competition one with another was the one that exposed them to the risk of a breakdown in case one of their own project didn't reached serial production status.

New one is a complete return to the previous situation with the developmental phase decoupled from the serial production one, so that the fact that Russian MoD decided to not proceed further with the acquisition of a serially produced MiG-35 is something that's doesn't affect the MiG NAPO.
THEIR OWN PART of work has been fully completed and, despite some delays was a full success and they would receive their own due compensation.
So, their own survival is not a stake here; it remain the problem for the APO previously associated with MiG but now that they are part of a nationwide group there is no reason that would keep them from being awrded a contract to produce something that was developed by others.

Sokol, which was supposed to manufacture the MiG-35, are right now upgrading the MiG-31B to MiG-31BM. They are also making doors, tail sections, for the MC-21 and SSJ plus fuselage sections for the Il-114.
https://ruavia.su/tag/sokol-aircraft-plant/

So it is not like they are idle doing nothing.

Having two competing state owned companies is retarded, you gain nothing from two competing for same state budget, you just get double the expenditures

Competition only makes sense in private sector

But at times I'm shocked at how bad your English can be! Aren't you supposed to be some kind of teacher?
Anyway here is a short English lesson:

No I am not a teacher and you can stick your English lesson where the sun don't shine.

I understand you want to distract from being wrong, I understand it upsets you.

In English "managers" is plural - which is more than one. In the above sentence you've used the word "managers" twice.

Not plural if the punctuation is incorrect.

So either your English is bad OR you are spreading disinformation. Take your pick.

You know someone is wrong when they create a false dichotomy like that. My English is just fine thank you, the language itself has always been criticised for the ambiguity... the Two Ronnies made a fantastic career out of it in fact.

The fact that you focus on the unimportant to hide that you were wrong is about you and not about the English language.

As I've said before - the Izd 33 project was cancelled back in 1986 by the Soviet AF. It never made it into the 90's.

Hahaha, pedantic little girl. Thank you for the correction, and with that correction the point stands... MiG made a single engined light fighter and it was rejected because single engined light fighters are not cheaper than twin engined fighters... that is just a western myth.

Why don't you tell us how cheap the Gripen is to operate?

Or will you say that a Gripen has an APU so therefore is not a single engined fighter?

I'm afraid MiG is cancelling themselves - so to speak.

You and LSOS can keep barking while MiG continues to design new aircraft.

MiG no longer exists as an independent company. It's now part of UAC.

Sukhoi no longer exists and an independent company either...

Whatever workforce remains (after massive layoffs some years ago) is busy with MiG-41 upgrades and designing MiG PAK-DA. None of us knows of other projects.

People here with their heads up their own arses don't know, but showing a single engined 5th gen fighter design, a twin engined light 5th gen carrier fighter design and an unmanned single engined drone suggests they are other projects that they will be working on.

Equally the MiG-UTS is something else they are also working on.

Though according to a TASS interview (I'll try to search again for sources), the MiG design bureau will be an independent design team within Sukhoi for an internal competition, as it was called.

Come now Mir... you should be jumping all over this statement... he is calling UAC... Sukhoi... are you the English police or just an English lynch mob that enforces the rules when it suits. How American of you.

More than 1000 F-35s have already been made. Production is 100+ per year. So it is still a real threat for VVS (Russian Air Force) -

Only a threat to the budgets of HATO countries and other countries that buy it.

F-15s are unlikely to be flying in contested areas first - they are like artillery for air defense, delivering heavy punches from long distances. On the line of contact, F-35s are going to be there, accompanied by drones.

They are not stealthy and will be vulnerable to Russian long range AAMs from extended ranges... in fact vulnerable than the Su-57s they will be fighting.

No, whit the fusion of the two conglomerates (the one lead by Mig with the one led by Sukhoi but having already absorbed others OKB/NAPO) in a single national entity situation for the weakest ones has improved.

Tell that to the powerful British Aerospace companies... their fighters are now second to none, while during WWII the crap they came up with was embarrassing.

So, their own survival is not a stake here;

Only deluded fools are suggesting MiG will actually disappear, they will be making more MiG-29Ks or perhaps MiG-35s for the carrier role, and of course upgrades to MiG-31s and the MiG-41 replacement, as well as MiG-UTS which the Russian AF and Russian Navy will likely buy in large numbers because it is the cheaper and lighter jet trainer so can be used as airfield hacks to keep flight hours up and for transfer of individuals quickly and cheaply.

Having two competing state owned companies is retarded, you gain nothing from two competing for same state budget, you just get double the expenditures

Competition only makes sense in private sector

They are not competing in production, they are competing in design.

And only having one production company... well how many artillery shells would they be making now if they only had one...

Design is design and production is something totally different.

The introduction of AESA radars is more a production issue than a design issue... neither of which actually have anything to do with MIG or Sukhoi which don't design or produce radar.

marcellogo wrote:
No, whit the fusion of the two conglomerates (the one lead by Mig with the one led by Sukhoi but having already absorbed others OKB/NAPO) in a single national entity situation for the weakest ones has improved.
The previous structure with several state controlled companies responsable for the whole productive circle and being in direct competition one with another was the one that exposed them to the risk of a breakdown in case one of their own project didn't reached serial production status.

Bullseye.
Plus a widely knows situation, when due to lack of information flow independent institutions were busy inventing exactly the same things, wasting the resources, can be seriously declined or avoided.

GarryB wrote:No I am not a teacher and you can stick your English lesson where the sun don't shine.

I understand you want to distract from being wrong, I understand it upsets you.

The fact that you focus on the unimportant to hide that you were wrong is about you and not about the English language.

Yet another great example of pure projection. You are the one that throws the language "issue" into the mix when your "facts" get a little mixed up  

GarryB wrote:Perhaps English is not your first language...

GarryB wrote:Hahaha, pedantic little girl. Thank you for the correction, and with that correction the point stands... MiG made a single engined light fighter and it was rejected

Once again you keep on regurgitating the same BS claims (although you now attempt to project that onto others). The Izd 33 was never "made" as you like to claim here. It only managed to get to the wind-tunnel stage as a model. It seems that MiG models have some sort of elevated status but anything else is just vapourware.  

MiG is fine and definitely doesn’t face any threat of extinction

MiG31 is the best aircraft of the SMO - in an air to air and air to ground role

Which is a bit ironic because it’s doing the job all those sukhoi aircraft were built to fulfill

But tbf - su30/35 are just fine to augment the already dominant role of MiG31 , su57 with al51 and byelka will fill the same role perfectly , barring any hiccups with engines and radars

And su34 and su25 need serious upgrades to meet that role beyond blind firing rockets and tossing FABS - with sensor upgrades and modernized sensor integration - they can perform their roles even better

Su75 is a toss up , the cost savings aren’t known yet and sukhoi has already promised that they would reuse AL41 and IRBIS on su30 which proved to not be true, if it was so cheap and easy to integrate they’d have done so

So it really doesn’t help that they stuck with upgrading BARS, as it weakens the argument that it would be so easy to interchangeably use AL51 and a new AESA scaled down off N036

I mean if past behavior is proof of anything, then so far it’s not looking good for su75

If they can do it - then yes su75 is the best option after su57, but again that is years away

So MiG35 - with PGM capability , good radar, economic and efficient engines, and sensor fusion would be totally suited to dual air to air and air to ground role

As it is available now, it makes sense to get going and adding fighter regiments , and do like the su34, build them until the better and next gen option is ready to produce - in su34 case that’s S70

It really hurts the sukhoi supporters to say there is no budget to buy MiG35, but then disingenuously pedal an aircraft like su34 when s70 is ready as well

But then again that’s what they’ve always done

I agree the best aircraft in the SMO is the MiG-31BM, just wished they gave it more serious SEAD and air-to-surface capabilities, in the form of more varied munitions at its disposal. EW, sensors, ISR, SAR mapping and jamming, power shouldn't be a issue, especially with those engines.

They need a bigger fleet of them. Have proven themselves very well, further integration with the PVO and IADS will increase interception and defense against airborne targets/missiles.

The MiG 35 is needed now, they can update the radar and sensors as newer technologies mature and come into service from the 5th generation development, and continue to develop new targeting pods etc.

I wonder what would of been if they kept the MiG 27's updated and in service, with a variant of the AL-31 installed. Those would of been excellent in this campaign, especially with how rugged and robust they were, with the rough field capability, fast low level attack, bomb truck with new modern munitions.

There needs to be a better balance of aircraft within the VVS.
The inclusion of the MiG-35, will provide a better mix of capability, cost and overall numbers needed for the airforce.

I mean that’s what sukhoi fanboys constantly say - why buy a 4th gen aircraft when a better 5th gen one is coming along - the threat of F35 and super 6th gen planes is too great for little MiG35

But then again - they turn around and do the very same thing with su34 and s70

We can make the same argument - air defenses are so advanced that vanilla su34 isn’t enough to take them on, then the sukhoi fanboys say, oh it’s just a bomber and it uses FAB well, this is what they justify the purchase of 200 cars with

Do as I say but not as I do

When it’s MiG there’s no budget, but if it’s sukhoi there’s money for 4th gen and drone bombers and a redundant 5th gen mockup

It’s rubbish, there’s money for both MiG35 and su75 if needs call for it

And in terms of numbers aircraft -  MiG35 can definitely be justified

ArchieB wrote:MiG31 is the best aircraft of the SMO - in an air to air and air to ground role

The Mig-31 is without any doubt definitely at the top of the list as the best aircraft from the MiG OKB. It's truly a fantastic interceptor, but claiming it to be the best Russian aircraft of the SMO is just way off the mark.

That honour belongs to the MiG-29/35 family. Yes you read it correctly - the MiG-29/35 family!  

Even for a "MiG hater" like me it is as clear as daylight that these MiG's outclassed everything that the Russians could throw into the mix. I mean we've had strategic missile strike aircraft like the Tu-160, the Tu-22M and the Tu-95 delivering cruise missiles with pinpoint precision from hundreds of kilometers away.

We've seen all attack helicopters in action - even the Ka-29! We've seen a lot of footage (and I mean a lot) of the now notorious Sukhois in action over the battlefield and the Russians even used the stealthy Su-57 during the SMO. The footage was a little fuzzy but they were there for sure! One was even "damaged" on the ground!

Apart from one blurry incident with a Reaper drone the Russian Mig-29/35's - very surprisingly - proved to be the Russian's best kept secret! They proved to be super stealthy - so much so that no-one has ever seen any of them during the SMO! What's more is that NONE of them has ever been shot down or damaged on the ground. Just fucking unbelievable!

They sure had me fooled! Long live the Mig-29/35  

This type of derby made by trowing mud to other ones product has to stop, please!

All the planes used in the current conflict has showed their own good qualities and no one need to be smeared upon just to score a point.
Maybe except the MiG-29SMT of which I have seen news of not complete satisfaction.
Point is not such, however.
MiG-35 could even e better than the Su-35S for what I know but STILL it would need years before a serial assembly line would be ready, get tested and optimized and successively a full rate production achieved.
And in this moment it is much more simpler and effective just to recruit or even form specialized workers and made the existing assembly lines work on three shifts than set up anything new, no matter how much advanced the product is.
They are working on the T-62 not on the Armata for the same reason, for Heavens' grace!.
Su-57 was lucky to have its own assembly line still ready although still not in full production so that further investment has been made and it would also work 24/7.
And what everyone seems to forget is that there is also the S-70 very close to finish it own testing, so there is an hell of competitor for what it regard future resources (above all skilled workers, the real bottleneck there) allocation.

Yet another great example of pure projection. You are the one that throws the language "issue" into the mix when your "facts" get a little mixed up

Miss drama queen... let me spell it out.

I made a statement and you misinterpreted what I said in your reply.

I corrected your mistake and then you get all bitchy.

You then mistakenly assumed I was a teacher, which I corrected but it is me that is mixed up you say.

Once again you keep on regurgitating the same BS claims (although you now attempt to project that onto others).

I don't know you, this is an international forum. It is funny I ask if English is your first language and you claim I am a teacher.. but I am the bad guy because I was right and you were wrong.

The Izd 33 was never "made" as you like to claim here.

Again... English language.. MiG are a design bureau and they create designs to the serial production level after which other factories and companies produce said serial designs based on their specs. Another word for create in this context is made, or developed if you like.

Little Miss pissy pants is wasting her time being super pedantic.

Distracting from the fact that MiG developed single engined light fighters after developing the MiG-29 and those designs have so far been rejected.

Their new design shown in model form includes a single engine model but they have a twin engined model for carrier use that could be adopted by the Russian Air Force as well.

It only managed to get to the wind-tunnel stage as a model. It seems that MiG models have some sort of elevated status but anything else is just vapourware.

It was rejected before it flew. The Su-75 hasn't flown either, but you claim it is a success... interesting flexibility you have there.

And su34 and su25 need serious upgrades to meet that role beyond blind firing rockets and tossing FABS - with sensor upgrades and modernized sensor integration - they can perform their roles even better

In the case of the Su-25 I think the role of the CAS aircraft has passed... modern air defences are simply too strong for platforms that can't see 20km in front of them and launch standoff attacks. The days of flying in and firing a burst of cannon shells or a barrage of rockets or carefully placed bombs is probably over... simply too dangerous.

They sure had me fooled! Long live the Mig-29/35

Maybe you can visit Gomig-21 and Ahmedfire while you are in the land of the pharoahs... I hear Denial is lovely this time of year.

it would need years before a serial assembly line would be ready, get tested and optimized and successively a full rate production achieved.

Even if it took 3 years it would be in serial production before the Su-75 was even flying.

GarryB wrote:It is funny I ask if English is your first language and you claim I am a teacher.. but I am the bad guy because I was right and you were wrong.

I never claimed that you are a teacher. I only asked if you were a teacher. A huge linguistic difference! Are you sure English is your first language?

Oh, on another point - please remind me where you were right and I was wrong. I have serious difficulty in finding that bit.

GarryB wrote:MiG developed single engined light fighters after developing the MiG-29....It was rejected before it flew

I can see clearly now why they rejected it. MiG actually forgot to fit the engine!



Thank the gods Sukhoi did not make that same mistake! It would have been fatal!

GarryB wrote:Even if it took 3 years it would be in serial production before the Su-75 was even flying.

Garry, I have read back my post and even the previous one.
I have not seen a single mention of the Su-75 in both...
That's because I'm not interested in it at all, as it is a.t.m. just little more that a paper project (and the same I could say about the MiG scale models, sorry...).
Same with the PAK-DP , as it's something that we had not seem even in an official artistic impression.
They are thing for the future, no one of them would affect the results of current conflict.
What I was trying to do is to try a RATIONAL and hope UNBIASED explanation of the reasons because they are not putting in serial production NOW a plane that has completed its own development phase.

The S-70 Okhotnik -B is however completely another thing as AFAIK it is almost ready and already working toward its own serial production so we have to put it in any reasoning involving ALLOCATION OF PRODUCTIVE RESOURCES.