MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

GarryB wrote:Sukhoi is trying to take over, which is not a good thing no matter your opinion of their current products... Sukhoi is dominating the way MiG used to dominate and it is not healthy for Russia.

Ridiculous. How the hell is a design bureau going to take over its parent company? Or did you forget that Sukhoi and MiG are now incorporated into the United Aircraft Corporation and no longer have control of their own separate production lines and facilities.

What that means is that even if the Su-75 is chosen over the MiG-35 as Russia's "cheap" numbers fighter, it could still end up being produced in a "former" MiG factory, with "former" MiG factory workers, using components from companies that previously supplied parts to MiG and a Sukhoi badge stamped on the side.

https://aviation21.ru/mig-29k-zastavili-podnyatsya-nad-baltikoj-nemeckie-tajfuny/

MiG-29Ks forced German Typhoons to rise over the Baltic
13.07.2024, 17:50


On 10 July 2024, German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon fighters were scrambled to provide visual identification and escort for two MiG-29K/KUB carrier-based fighters over the Baltic Sea.

The MiG-29KUB (product 9-47) is a two-seat carrier-based combat training multifunctional fighter of the 4+ generation, which is in service with the naval aviation of the Russian Navy. "No more than four units of these extremely rare machines are currently in operation,"reportsEvgeny Damantsev on the Telegram channel "Russian Weapons".

During the flight over the Baltic, the fighters were without the mass-dimensional mock-ups of the air-to-air missile armament, which may indicate both the "testing" of the updated software of the weapons control system and the training of pilots in performing tasks typical for the work of navigators-operators. To increase the range, the aircraft were equipped with central external fuel tanks with a capacity of 2150 liters.

To ensure the integration of missile and bomb armament, including the Kh-35U, Kh-59MK2 and Kh-38MTE/MLE/MAE multipurpose missiles, as well as the R-77-1 air-to-air missiles, the MiG-29K/KUB onboard electronic equipment is built on the open architecture principle based on the MIL-STD-1553B standard. "The MIL-STD-1553B standard assumes an open architecture of the avionics and weapons control system elements of the MiG-29KUB, providing the ability to update the element base with a corresponding update of the source code," the report says.

The fighter is equipped with a more advanced coherent-pulse airborne radar station "Zhuk-ME" variant FGM-129, operating in the centimeter wave range. The antenna is a moving sheet based on a slotted array with a built-in compensation channel. The modernization of this station carried out in 2008 - 2011 significantly improved its tactical and technical characteristics and expanded combat capabilities. The detection range of targets with an effective reflective surface (EOS) of three square meters is about 110 km, and targets with an EOS of 0.1 square meters - about 40 km. The system also implements a terrain mapping mode with a resolution of 5x5 or 3x3 square meters.

Compared to the previous generation of radars, the Zhuk-ME has a larger range of azimuth viewing angles, lower weight and higher reliability. The station provides tracking of up to 10 air targets and simultaneous missile fire at four of them. MiG-29K/KUB are equipped with a modern multi-channel optical-location station and a target designation system for passive homing heads of anti-radar missiles. It is possible to install containers with infrared and laser sighting equipment on the aircraft to illuminate ground targets.

The maximum speed of the MiG-29KUB is 2100 km/h, and the service ceiling is 17,500 meters. The aircraft are equipped with new turbofan engines with an afterburner RD-33 series 3M with a total afterburner thrust of 17,400 kgf. The radius of action of fighters with three external fuel tanks at an altitude of 10,000 meters can reach 1350 km, without external fuel tanks - 750 km.

In the early 2010s, production of the aircraft was financed by orders for 42 MiG-29Ks from the Indian Navy. Later, RAC MiG built 22 aircraft for one regiment of the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. The Russian Navy command initially preferred the Su-33 carrier-based aircraft, but the fact that the costs of launching MiG-29K production were financed by Indian orders led to the acquisition of a lighter aircraft.

Arkanghelsk wrote:The sukhoi monopoly is dangerous

This is what Boeing became - UAC as a cover for sukhoi

Not good at all , soon sukhoi will control all the contracts from civil aviation to military

They will come for tupolev next

No to sukhoi !

Well first of  all Sukhoi does not have a monopoly. There are still at least 5 major OKB's that are actively involved as design bureaus.
UAC is an umbrella for all these OKB's.

What I find immensely laughable is that you lot not only blame Sukhoi for their immense success over the years as being unfair competition and monopolistic, but you even blame Sukhoi for MiG's own incompetence and outright fraud! It's actually not funny - it's fucking shocking actually!  

Here you lot would like to see the demise of one of the few success stories in modern Russia.   disgusting stuff!

If Sukhoi didn't hit a jackpot with Su-30 variants during the 90's, you can bet your ass that, not all factories that produce aircraft would survive, and Russia would have a much smaller production capacity today. And their string of successes continued with Su-34 and Su-35 later and going into Su-57 today. In the meantime, MiG struggled to even finalize MiG-29 and make it into a decent multirole fighter. They don't have anyone to blame, but themselves. Even today, few MiG-35s that VKS received, most likely, don't have AESA radar, but some modernization of Zhuk-M.

The Russians have a few Mig-35S and Mig-35UB in service. They differ somewhat from the Mig-35 and Mig-35D prototypes in that the nosecone and other dielectric panels look exactly the same as the Mig29M2's so I doubt that they actually have the AESA onboard.

Essentially, Base Mig-35 comes with a mechanically scanned Zhuk-M but they said that they could provide an AESA if the customer wishes.
A good option would be the technically very impressive Zhuk-AMEh or the local use version, that is.
As far as Mig-35 vs Su-75 goes, it'll be down to state trials. That is how things are solved.

Atmosphere wrote:
As far as Mig-35 vs Su-75 goes, it'll be down to state trials. That is how things are solved.

It's like an Su-30 vs Su-57. I just can't see it happening.

The Mig-29/35 is not considered sufficient. This is not a statement but a fact. She is simply not ordered. Neither at home nor from abroad.

Right now Mig could have exported the Mig-35 abroad. But no one wants these.

Mit should try to design a slightly larger aircraft. Based on the Su-30M2. Specialized in carrier and naval air forces.

The best aircraft in real use what is also needed is the two-seater Mig-29K. That's what Mig should focus on. This is how the office would be preparing for it if Russia were to enter the country after all. three carriers will operate. This promises 120 to 150 aircraft.

With possible export customers such as India or Brazil or for naval air weapons, 250 to 300 units would also be possible. Just keep it much cheaper to maintain and of course try everything that the Su-30M2 can please also be able to deliver.

Such an aircraft should not be able to be replaced by drones in the near future and of course offers a small niche for Mig.

The rest should go either way in a BM2 upgrade of the Mig-31.

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:The rest should go either way in a BM2 upgrade of the Mig-31.

They were supposed to be working on a fly by wire upgrade to the MiG-31. They converted the MiG-29 to fly by wire. So it would not be the first time they did this. This would make it much easier to train pilots.

They could put the cockpit of the MiG-35 in it. Or even use systems from the Su-57 like the long distance secure communications link and enhanced avionics. The current processor in the MiG-31BM does not seem to have enough performance to take full advantage of the huge radar it has. So a whole new computer like the one in the Su-57 would be useful.

This could also be used as a testbed for the initial avionics suite for the PAK DP. Much like the initial Su-57 prototypes used Su-35 avionics.

lancelot wrote:

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:The rest should go either way in a BM2 upgrade of the Mig-31.

They were supposed to be working on a fly by wire upgrade to the MiG-31. They converted the MiG-29 to fly by wire. So it would not be the first time they did this. This would make it much easier to train pilots.

They could put the cockpit of the MiG-35 in it. Or even use systems from the Su-57 like the long distance secure communications link and enhanced avionics. The current processor in the MiG-31BM does not seem to have enough performance to take full advantage of the huge radar it has. So a whole new computer like the one in the Su-57 would be useful.

This could also be used as a testbed for the initial avionics suite for the PAK DP. Much like the initial Su-57 prototypes used Su-35 avionics.

Didn't the Mig-31M already have all this?

The radar must be fully exploited and further improved! In the future, it still needs more range, even better chances of detection of all kinds of drones, distance weapons and much more!

George1 wrote:

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:The Mig-29/35 is not considered sufficient. This is not a statement but a fact. She is simply not ordered. Neither at home nor from abroad.

Right now Mig could have exported the Mig-35 abroad. But no one wants these.

They have been exported to Algeria (14) and Egypt (46). I think also could be a cheaper choice than Su30s in some Asian countries: Bangladesh, Vietnam, Burma and even North Korea

As the Mig-29/35 is today, it has failed. In Russia, as well as abroad. If you want Might feel, you have to look ahead.

A Mig-37 in the size of the Su-30M2, two-seater, folding wing, marine version, in all at least as good as the M2 please! Special forces on naval interception and fleet/coastal protection.

So something completely new please!

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Didn't the Mig-31M already have all this?

There is no MiG-31M. That is a cancelled aircraft program which was supposed to build aircraft from scratch.

The MiG-31BM is a 1990s upgrade of the original MiG-31B with some elements that would have been in the MiG-31M upgrade. Like the radar.

The MiG-31BM is a 2010s upgrade that uses the same computer that is on the Su-35. Baget-55-06 with MIPS compatible CPUs. Those were brand new when it came out but right now they are one generation older than what is in the Su-57.

Ridiculous. How the hell is a design bureau going to take over its parent company?

Ridiculous?

When the managers of the Sukhoi department become the managers of UAC/OAK, and also the managers of the MiG department what else can you say?

Or did you forget that Sukhoi and MiG are now incorporated into the United Aircraft Corporation and no longer have control of their own separate production lines and facilities.

Fully aware of that thank you, but don't you think the most successful department that is bringing in the most money gives the managers of that department more power within the organisation and when they are promoted to be in charge of the entire organisation then they can make changes that will further improve Sukhois profitability and prospects for expansion?

What that means is that even if the Su-75 is chosen over the MiG-35 as Russia's "cheap" numbers fighter, it could still end up being produced in a "former" MiG factory, with "former" MiG factory workers, using components from companies that previously supplied parts to MiG and a Sukhoi badge stamped on the side.

With a 2,800km flight range and 7 ton payload capacity the Su-75 is too close to the Su-57 to be cheap enough... to quote the critics of the MiG-35... it is not different enough to justify its existence.

Keep in mind that the Su-75 is a foreign funded project that still has not flown yet... not sure how they could choose it over something already in production.

Well first of all Sukhoi does not have a monopoly. There are still at least 5 major OKB's that are actively involved as design bureaus.
UAC is an umbrella for all these OKB's.

So you say...

What I find immensely laughable is that you lot not only blame Sukhoi for their immense success over the years as being unfair competition and monopolistic, but you even blame Sukhoi for MiG's own incompetence and outright fraud! It's actually not funny - it's fucking shocking actually!

Super successful Sukhoi and fraudulent MiG, that is the painting is it?

Here you lot would like to see the demise of one of the few success stories in modern Russia.

I have not problem with their success, but their urge to borg the competition is what is disturbing.

Even today, few MiG-35s that VKS received, most likely, don't have AESA radar, but some modernization of Zhuk-M.

Keeping in mind that Su-35s and Su-34s and Su-30s don't have AESA radars either... despite all their success and wealth...

But that is glossed over and ignored really.

As far as Mig-35 vs Su-75 goes, it'll be down to state trials. That is how things are solved.

Well for the next 5-8 years the MiG-35 is going to win that comparison in actual tests... because in terms of speed and flight range the Su-75 can achieve about as fast and as far as they can push it.

It's like an Su-30 vs Su-57. I just can't see it happening.

More like an Su-35 and a Tempest 5th gen fighter... the Su-35 wins because the Tempest hasn't flown yet.

Right now Mig could have exported the Mig-35 abroad. But no one wants these.

Like any new aircraft there will be problems and issues.... and when the Su-75 actually gets airborne it will go through the same process.

If the Russian AF hasn't funded the AESA radar for the MiG-35 then that is clearly because they are too cheap or are not interested... either way that is not MiGs problem or fault.

With a bit of experience in Ukraine they have realised that light fighters are useful... having a fleet of rolls royce cars is nice but when you are just moving people around the place you don't need such an expensive or fussy car and you can save a lot in operational costs and insurance by operating a lighter platform that can essentially do the same job most of the time.

That is the idea behind the MiG-35 and the Su-75.

If the Russian AF didn't want to spend they could have gotten MiG-29Ms and upgraded the radar and systems later on when they became more affordable and the technology became more mature.

But they didn't do that either... they bought the bare minimum and decided to wait... but the current world situation makes it clear that waiting will cost lives...

The best aircraft in real use what is also needed is the two-seater Mig-29K.

No disrespect but you are spelling out the problem.

Ignorance. The MiG-29K is a two seat design where you can take out one seat and fit an extra fuel tank to have a longer ranged single seater if you want it, but all new MiGs are the same... MiG-29M, MiG-29K, and MiG-35... all three have a two seat cockpit canopy and the ability to have one seat with extra fuel or two seats without the extra fuel.

They have adapted the MiG-35 to take the MiG-29Ks wing which is larger and has extra lifting surfaces and also be fitted with a tail hook to essentially be a carrier based aircraft if required.

They are also working on a light 5th gen stealthy twin engined carrier aircraft too.

The radar must be fully exploited and further improved! In the future, it still needs more range, even better chances of detection of all kinds of drones, distance weapons and much more!

I would expect a completely new type of radar for the MIG-41, so lots of effort in upgrading the MiG-31s radar might not be worth the money or effort.

Get a new generation radar set into the MiG-31 for testing and you can deploy an early model before the MiG-41 is ready.

As the Mig-29/35 is today, it has failed.

It was failed by the Russian Air Force... the light fighter is supposed to be bought at a ratio of two to one, so take the number of in service Su-27SMs and Su-30s and Su-35s and add them all together and double it and that is how many MiG-35s they should have ordered.

But they didn't.

MiG is just making what the Russian AF ordered.

Or do you think the Russian AF just says make what you like and we will have a look at the finished product and decide then.

A Mig-37 in the size of the Su-30M2, two-seater, folding wing, marine version, in all at least as good as the M2 please!

That would be bloody stupid.... converting the MiG-35 into an Su-30... why bother when they could just buy extra Su-30s.

The whole point of the MiG-35 is that it is smaller and lighter and cheaper than the Flanker series.

But it's happening! A large interceptor... designed by the MiG design bureau.

Totally unrelated. The MiG-41 wont replace Su-30s, it will replace MiG-31s... eventually.

But that concept is stupid anyway... the MiG-35 is not supposed to replace the Su-30 or Su-35, they are all supposed to work together... with the lighter cheaper MiG-35 being made in larger numbers because their operating costs will be lower and having numbers will be more affordable than having numbers of the bigger heavier aircraft.

As for aircraft carriers - 3 would be built at the earliest in the beginning of 2040 for MiG-29 airframe would be almost 70 years old... Perspective without perspectives

MiG has already showed its light fighter option for aircraft carrier use...

George1 wrote:

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:
Right now Mig could have exported the Mig-35 abroad. But no one wants these.

They have been exported to Algeria (14) and Egypt (46). I think also could be a cheaper choice than Su30s in some Asian countries: Bangladesh, Vietnam, Burma and even North Korea

The Algerian and Egyptian Migs are Mig-29M2's - not Mig-35's

Another Sukhoi/MiG slugfest.
Let's add, in the softer way possible, my two Kopeks.

First, I earnestly think that the creation of UAC actually is a good thing for all the OKB/NAPO in general.
It has took a long time to be completed but it has actually the merit of having decoupled the improper link between the design and testing entities and the Serial Production associations, returning in great part to the praxis of Soviet times.
Transforming the older conglomerates in full economically autonomous brand operating in direct competition one another on both internal contracts than in foreign markets was infact the reason why  certain dirty moves like dumping and negative smear campaign were used.

Now, with such a new societal ri-organization the NAPO MiG risk nothing from the fact that the MiG-35 would NOT be mass produced, their own part of work was completed anyway and with success, so they will get their own bonuses for this.
Also for the foreseeable future the NAPO MiG risk nothing: they have the MiG-31I, they are working to modify the remaining DZ into a modernized fighter plane and in the longer term they have the PAK-DP.
In such a niche they have unique competencies that Sukhoi has not any interest to invest in, so they have something to stand upon anyway.
And the MiG-35 is there anyway, in case someone (I think Belarus or other former Soviet states, not foreign customers) would show interest on acquiring it , Russia could join.

Now, I didn't see instead a possibility of a direct competition of different NAPO on the same future or perspective model of plane like was in the old times but this is a more general problem than only Russia, modern planes are so complex that specialization in certain niches are in some way unavoidable.

Certainly, there is still the fact that some productive capacities of the former conglomerate (the Sokol plant) are still unused but the same is true for what it came as an example for the former production plant of the Su-25UB in Alan Ude.
With the new societal organization however Sokol could more easily compete with it for producing new type of planes for the VKS (about foreign buyers, almost for the moment there are slim chances anyway) than on the former one in which each conglomerate had enormous vested interest in producing their own products in their own directly controlled APO.

GarryB wrote:When the managers of the Sukhoi department become the managers of UAC/OAK, and also the managers of the MiG department what else can you say?

Alexey Bulatov, Deputy Director of the UAC and Chief Designer of the Checkmate aircraft and Yuri Slyusar, General Director of the UAC.
Bulatov is obviously from Sukhoi. Yuri Slyusar has an impressive cv but NEVER served in Sukhoi. In the aircraft industry he served at Rostvertol.
Try to be factional.
   

Mir wrote: Well first of all Sukhoi does not have a monopoly. There are still at least 5 major OKB's that are actively involved as design bureaus.
   UAC is an umbrella for all these OKB's.

GarryB wrote:So you say...

Sorry I made a mistake - forgot about Mil and Kamov, so you can add two more.

GarryB wrote:but their urge to borg the competition is what is disturbing.

Yes keep on blaming someone else for Mig's problems!  

GarryB wrote:Keeping in mind that Su-35s and Su-34s and Su-30s don't have AESA radars either... despite all their success and wealth...
But that is glossed over and ignored really.

The only one's claiming AESA is the Mig-35 fan club, but it now appears that it is not fitted in the production version - so far...

Mig 29/35 is a failure.

One might argue that the Mig-35 is a failure because it was not mass produced, but expanding this to the Mig-29 is simply ridiculous. No 4th generation fighter, apart from the F-16, can beat the export success of the Mig-29.

but it now appears that it is not fitted in the production version

I keep waiting for any evidence that there is no AESA in the production version...

marcellogo wrote: modern planes are so complex that specialization in certain niches are in some way unavoidable.

Alexey Bulatov already indicated that Sukhoi's 6th gen fighters would move away from being multi-role and would be developed as single mission aircraft (with different variants) to curb the spiraling cost and complexity of these aircraft designs. I'm sure this trend will be followed by everyone else.

GarryB wrote:MiG has already showed its light fighter option for aircraft carrier use...

This model is clearly a rework of the Mig-141 if I'm not mistaken so I doubt it will be a "light fighter". It is probably aimed at being competition for the Su-57K in the medium to heavy class, but not as big as the Mig-141?

The real Mig model for a light fighter is behind the Ucav model in this photo:

Belisarius wrote:I keep waiting for any evidence that there is no AESA in the production version...

Mir wrote:The Russians have a few Mig-35S and Mig-35UB in service. They differ somewhat from the Mig-35 and Mig-35D prototypes in that the nosecone and other dielectric panels look exactly the same as the Mig29M2's so I doubt that they actually have the AESA onboard.

Here is the front fuselage of the Mig-29M2 - which is exactly the same as the Mig-29KR. None of these have AESA radars.



Here is the Mig-35D. You should immediately see the the much smaller nosecone and the two dielectric panels instead of the one on the Mig-29M2.



Take a look at the in service Mig-35UB. It looks exactly like the Mig-29M2 above.



To me this is evidence to suggest that the Russian version does not have AESA radar. Other sources claim this as well.

If there was AESA, i'm sure MiG would be tooting their horn, as they need some wind in the back. Nobody knows if AESA radar is ready at all. There was a of of chatter in Indian press that reason why MiG-35 didn't pass into final round of repeated tender was exactly because of radar.

@GarryB
You've shown many times that you're ready to misrepresent facts or take things out of the context in order to prove your point. All aforementioned planes are in service with VKS for 10+ years and represent the present and not the future, as MiG-35 should be. Second, they all have PESA radars which are generation ahead of Zhuk-M. Especially IRBIS, which is a mixture between PESA and AESA tech.