AK-12 Rifle Discussion

- top rail (which isn't the most optimal method of attachment)

The toprail allows the use of multiple optical sights and iron sights.

Put a day sight at the rear... zero it. When it gets dark fit a night vision goggle with no aiming reticule in front of the day sight and you have a night sight that is already zeroed... when it gets light take the night vision goggle off.

- non reicorporating charging handle (seriously such rigid forward assist brings more pain then it takes, plus it isn't reccomended to force cartridge into battery anyway due to safety reasons)

Who said the charging handle on the AK12 isn't reciprocating?

You can swap it left or right, but it is attached to the bolt carrier and therefore moves back and forth as the weapon fires.

A round with a bit of dirt on it that doesn't go in properly, you can pull the handle back a little and shake it and then close the bolt without bringing the charging handle right to the rear and loading a second round... that will really cause a jam if the first round is not ejected cleanly.

- adjastuble stock (big yay for anyone to has experienced too short or too long stock)

Or is wearing body armour or is using a scope.

- ability to retain one reciever while have possibilty to swap barrels

More useful for a hunter or special forces soldier.

[quote]- more popular thread on the barrel{/quote]

You mean rifling improved for heavier bullets to improve accuracy?

the new muzzle break is designed to take standard 22mm NATO rifle grenades but AFAIK the thread for the muzzle break is likely standard and not compatible with western muzzle devices.

- things are way different and more complex with identifieying case with safety switch,

Safety can be set using your thumb from either side and because the safety does not seem to actually block the bolt you can unload rounds from the chamber without setting the safety to the fire position.

inspecting the chamber, bolt manipulation ( been one place to check or manipulate now are three, not very idiotproof ... especially under the stress )

You can set the charging handle to either side as you like and you can check the chamber is empty from either side too.

If you set the charging handle to your preferred side and never change it, you should have no problem in combat working out which side it is on.

With the bolt hold open device the charging handle wont be used much except for the first "load".

- more internal moving parts

Can still be simple and reliable.

- higher cost for a weapon system that is pretty insignificant in the military operation

Have heard that with the new tooling upgrade that production cost is not that much higher than standard AK.

Easily changable/ quick changable barrel - very costy considering changes to the reciever and handguards.

Likely only for special forces. For standard troops only LMG version is likely to have a replacable barrel... if then as the PKP is probably a better weapon with its more powerful cartridge...

What is the status of the AK 12? Is the Russian Army going to get? Will they be importing the Ak 12?

Where would they import it from?

No one makes it yet and Kalashnikov designed it.

GarryB wrote:

- top rail (which isn't the most optimal method of attachment)

The toprail allows the use of multiple optical sights and iron sights.

Put a day sight at the rear... zero it. When it gets dark fit a night vision goggle with no aiming reticule in front of the day sight and you have a night sight that is already zeroed... when it gets light take the night vision goggle off.

- non reicorporating charging handle (seriously such rigid forward assist brings more pain then it takes, plus it isn't reccomended to force cartridge into battery anyway due to safety reasons)

Who said the charging handle on the AK12 isn't reciprocating?

You can swap it left or right, but it is attached to the bolt carrier and therefore moves back and forth as the weapon fires.

A round with a bit of dirt on it that doesn't go in properly, you can pull the handle back a little and shake it and then close the bolt without bringing the charging handle right to the rear and loading a second round... that will really cause a jam if the first round is not ejected cleanly.

- adjastuble stock (big yay for anyone to has experienced too short or too long stock)

Or is wearing body armour or is using a scope.

- ability to retain one reciever while have possibilty to swap barrels

More useful for a hunter or special forces soldier.

- more popular thread on the barrel{/quote]

You mean rifling improved for heavier bullets to improve accuracy?

the new muzzle break is designed to take standard 22mm NATO rifle grenades but AFAIK the thread for the muzzle break is likely standard and not compatible with western muzzle devices.

- things are way different and more complex with identifieying case with safety switch,

Safety can be set using your thumb from either side and because the safety does not seem to actually block the bolt you can unload rounds from the chamber without setting the safety to the fire position.

inspecting the chamber, bolt manipulation ( been one place to check or manipulate now are three, not very idiotproof ... especially under the stress )

You can set the charging handle to either side as you like and you can check the chamber is empty from either side too.

If you set the charging handle to your preferred side and never change it, you should have no problem in combat working out which side it is on.

With the bolt hold open device the charging handle wont be used much except for the first "load".

- more internal moving parts

Can still be simple and reliable.

- higher cost for a weapon system that is pretty insignificant in the military operation

Have heard that with the new tooling upgrade that production cost is not that much higher than standard AK.

Easily changable/ quick changable barrel - very costy considering changes to the reciever and handguards.

Likely only for special forces. For standard troops only LMG version is likely to have a replacable barrel... if then as the PKP is probably a better weapon with its more powerful cartridge...

What is the status of the AK 12? Is the Russian Army going to get? Will they be importing the Ak 12?

Where would they import it from?

No one makes it yet and Kalashnikov designed it.

I am sorry, I meant to say export, they the AK 12 be exported?

And also AK 12 will come in 30-round detachable box magazine, 60-round casket magazine, 95-round drum magazine, will this be for all the calibers? I mean will you be able get a 95-round drum in 5.45×39mm, 5.56×45mm NATO, 7.62×39mm, 9×39mm 6.5 Grendl and 7.62×51mm NATO.

par far wrote:

GarryB wrote:

- top rail (which isn't the most optimal method of attachment)

The toprail allows the use of multiple optical sights and iron sights.

Put a day sight at the rear... zero it. When it gets dark fit a night vision goggle with no aiming reticule in front of the day sight and you have a night sight that is already zeroed... when it gets light take the night vision goggle off.

- non reicorporating charging handle (seriously such rigid forward assist brings more pain then it takes, plus it isn't reccomended to force cartridge into battery anyway due to safety reasons)

Who said the charging handle on the AK12 isn't reciprocating?

You can swap it left or right, but it is attached to the bolt carrier and therefore moves back and forth as the weapon fires.

A round with a bit of dirt on it that doesn't go in properly, you can pull the handle back a little and shake it and then close the bolt without bringing the charging handle right to the rear and loading a second round... that will really cause a jam if the first round is not ejected cleanly.

- adjastuble stock (big yay for anyone to has experienced too short or too long stock)

Or is wearing body armour or is using a scope.

- ability to retain one reciever while have possibilty to swap barrels

More useful for a hunter or special forces soldier.

- more popular thread on the barrel{/quote]

You mean rifling improved for heavier bullets to improve accuracy?

the new muzzle break is designed to take standard 22mm NATO rifle grenades but AFAIK the thread for the muzzle break is likely standard and not compatible with western muzzle devices.

- things are way different and more complex with identifieying case with safety switch,

Safety can be set using your thumb from either side and because the safety does not seem to actually block the bolt you can unload rounds from the chamber without setting the safety to the fire position.

inspecting the chamber, bolt manipulation ( been one place to check or manipulate now are three, not very idiotproof ... especially under the stress )

You can set the charging handle to either side as you like and you can check the chamber is empty from either side too.

If you set the charging handle to your preferred side and never change it, you should have no problem in combat working out which side it is on.

With the bolt hold open device the charging handle wont be used much except for the first "load".

- more internal moving parts

Can still be simple and reliable.

- higher cost for a weapon system that is pretty insignificant in the military operation

Have heard that with the new tooling upgrade that production cost is not that much higher than standard AK.

Easily changable/ quick changable barrel - very costy considering changes to the reciever and handguards.

Likely only for special forces. For standard troops only LMG version is likely to have a replacable barrel... if then as the PKP is probably a better weapon with its more powerful cartridge...

What is the status of the AK 12? Is the Russian Army going to get? Will they be importing the Ak 12?

Where would they import it from?

No one makes it yet and Kalashnikov designed it.

I am sorry, I meant to say export, they the AK 12 be exported?

And also AK 12 will come in 30-round detachable box magazine, 60-round casket magazine, 95-round drum magazine, will this be for all the calibers? I mean will you be able get a 95-round drum in 5.45×39mm, 5.56×45mm NATO, 7.62×39mm, 9×39mm 6.5 Grendl and 7.62×51mm NATO.

And also how effective is the AK 12 in all the calibers? Is it as good in 6.5 Grendl or 5.56x45mm nato as it is in 5.45x39mm. What I mean is, is it good and effective(range, accuracy) in all the calibers or is one better than the other?

Should be very effective, no reason it would be worse except for actual downgrades such as a thinner barrel etc. Its performance is mostly dependent upon the cartridge used, so one might be more powerful and the other better at long-range....

I am sorry, I meant to say export, they the AK 12 be exported?

Almost certainly, with a standard AK12 with fixed calibre/barrel design for standard infantry, plus multi calibre AK12SN able to change barrel length and calibre for special forces use.

AFAIK they will likely offer civilian rifles in a much wider range of calibres too.

And also AK 12 will come in 30-round detachable box magazine, 60-round casket magazine, 95-round drum magazine, will this be for all the calibers? I mean will you be able get a 95-round drum in 5.45×39mm, 5.56×45mm NATO, 7.62×39mm, 9×39mm 6.5 Grendl and 7.62×51mm NATO.

I would assume so, though with different capacities for different calibres.. ie standard 20 round mag for 7.62 x 51mm NATO... maybe a double stack and a drum.

What I mean is, is it good and effective(range, accuracy) in all the calibers or is one better than the other?

I would expect its performance in range, accuracy and lethality would be largely based on the calibre being used.

Pics of the AK-12 that was apparently used in the state tests

http://topwar.ru/62026-novye-fotografii-ak-12.html

Different butt-stock again I wonder can You raise the top bit to adjust cheek-wield? Interesting muzzle. Gun controls are looking good.

By the way from same guy, look at AK-107... I'll ask him if he shot it too and how do they compare to each other.

I like the older stock design that could be adjusted for length as well as fully folding and having a raisable cheek piece... it would not be essential for a standard AK previously, but the new Ratnik includes both day and night optics so raising the cheek position on the rifle stock to allow optics makes rather a lot of sense, plus with body armour being standard having length adjustable stocks also makes a lot of sense too.

I like the older stock design that could be adjusted for length as well as fully folding and having a raisable cheek piece...

And A-545 seems to have it, I'm sure I see something like a cheek piece on one lying nearby. May be it's a detachable one?

There is a short vid (off a Russian TV channel) showing latest (?) iteration of AK12 .

Things of interest

- bolt carrier now locks in rear pos on mag-empty (?) - aka M4
- fire control is also M4 style with short burst added (3 rounds?)
- they fiddled with mag latch, now it can be dropped/released by pushing a lever
- reduced recoil was mentioned by the tester. I wonder if they just reduced the moving mass to the lowest possible value (bolt, carrier, piston - the whole 9 yards)
- integral rails on top and bottom
- camo-kote
- adjustable buttstock positions

Some of these were known for quite a while.

Anyway, the video claims about 50K/y prod #s for AK12. Seems that AK v AEK battle is still going on. I dont see a reason why both cant be allowed to enter the service, same round/mag. May be AEK for spec ops, AK12 for the rest .

I have read they are planning an AK12SN which has a replaceable barrel and can be changed to different calibres.

For most Russian Special Forces that means short and long barrel 5.45mm plus perhaps 9 x 39mm for sneaky stuff so they just need one rifle for a range of indoor and outdoor operations.

For some Special Forces operating in different locations where 5.45mm would stand out the same barrel lengths in 5.56mm or 7.62 x 39mm might be a useful capability.

Such a weapon sounds pretty useful.

I have seen the video you are referring to, and was impressed with the burst fire accuracy where the guy appeared to empty the mag from a standing position while the view of the target holes appeared rapidly in a very tight cluster.

the AK12 seems able to do the job, while the AEK seems to be just a different brand of the same thing.

I would prefer to see the AK12 vs something like the ADS, with perhaps the AK12 in general issue and the ADS for VDV, Naval spetsnaz, Naval Infantry and special forces units that don't need multi calibre weapons.

I would also like to see the wide deployment of modern night vision devices from 4th gen II and 3rd gen Thermal sights.

3-shot burst is at cyclic rate of 1000. ~16 rounds/sec, meaning 3 rounds go off in less than 200 msec. The shooter wont even feel the recoil at that point and certainly the muzzle wont even climb by that time . 100 m all 3 shots will be in tight group, target dead before it hits the ground. 3000 fps. Wont envy whoever is at the receiving end of that lil salvo.

You can prolly record it in super-slo-mo and time natural frequency of whipping oscillations and may be tune the stiffness/time the cyclic rate for shots to happen when barrel is crossing the 0 point.

Dont want to get too small of  MOA though, almost want the rounds to spread out a  bit ?

The balancing counter-weight in AEK is not winning supporters it seems.

Some reports said it was based on rack-pinion design, which would, in fact, be fragile in my opinion. But I don't really see a need for such complexity .

The gas could impact in between two pistons , moving them in opposite direction: one moving carrier bolt group rearward, another one moving the counterweight forward. Why would they need the RP setup ?

The gas could impact in between two pistons , moving them in opposite direction: one moving carrier bolt group rearward, another one moving the counterweight forward. Why would they need the RP setup ?

That's how it works. The rack and pinion are to synchronize the movement between the piston/carrier, and the counterweight. Mechanically, it's about as simple as it can get.

EDIT. Duh ! My bad. U did say to synchronize them .

############

But why do they need to couple the two moving parts with RP gear ?
To time (sync) them so that the cancelling "counter-strike" happens when bolt group is in rearmost-position ?

Otherwise they'd have 2 independent moving masses and it will be hard to time their relative motion just right

AK12 could just reduce the moving carrier group mass down to what it is in M4 (or HK416 to be more precise) and call it a day. That should reduce impulses from that mass coming to rest in rearward (eject) and forward (chamber) pos. Combined with moving bore line up, I say accuracy-potential-wise, we'd be right there with M4.

Dont take more gas than needed to guarantee ejection. Don't make the spring way too overpowering. Of course our env specs are much more stringent (how many M4 can operate at -60F ?)

There's always quality of ammo thing, but that's secondary and can be addressed independently.

They're just looking for justifications for a choice already made, the political choice in favour of the AK-12 and the support of all the fatcats there at Izhmash.

The AEK-971 is a marvelous assault rifle according to everyone who has ever tried it; I mean can you imagine burst or automatic fire with only a fraction of the recoil? And now this innovative rifle is going to be lost to the anus of military-industrial lobbying and Russia's equivalent of 'big business' suppressing the small guy. Damn them all.

If merits of that recoil cancelling thing are so strong, there's no reason not to allow limited field-trials. Both AK and AEK can enter the service, it is the same round and mag.

Money-wise, they will not be doing multi-million runs like with older AKs. Tula can still make plenty of dough selling older AK. Kovrov not doing too bad with Kord family of weapons. Assuming 100K of new rifles are ordered and maker makes $100 per, it is only U$10M upside

The AK-12 has lightened internals, so recoil will be reduced. This also inherently reduces reliability, a drawback.

flamming_python wrote:They're just looking for justifications for a choice already made, the political choice in favour of the AK-12 and the support of all the fatcats there at Izhmash.

The AEK-971 is a marvelous assault rifle according to everyone who has ever tried it; I mean can you imagine burst or automatic fire with only a fraction of the recoil? And now this innovative rifle is going to be lost to the anus of military-industrial lobbying and Russia's equivalent of 'big business' suppressing the small guy. Damn them all.

Your making such claims with no internal information. What's your evidence that the choice is purely based of politics and lobbying? Last time I checked the AKM, and AK-74 are some of the greatest rifles that ever graced the battlefield, your going to tell me one of the greatest gunsmithing organizations that ever existed just just made a 'tacti-cool' rifle for 'shits-and-giggles', like that zealot 'kathi' off of mp.net likes to claim lol?

magnumcromagnon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:They're just looking for justifications for a choice already made, the political choice in favour of the AK-12 and the support of all the fatcats there at Izhmash.

The AEK-971 is a marvelous assault rifle according to everyone who has ever tried it; I mean can you imagine burst or automatic fire with only a fraction of the recoil? And now this innovative rifle is going to be lost to the anus of military-industrial lobbying and Russia's equivalent of 'big business' suppressing the small guy. Damn them all.

Your making such claims with no internal information. What's your evidence that the choice is purely based of politics and lobbying? Last time I checked the AKM, and AK-74 are some of the greatest rifles that ever graced the battlefield, your going to tell me one of the greatest gunsmithing organizations that ever existed just just made a 'tacti-cool' rifle for 'shits-and-giggles', like that zealot 'kathi' off of mp.net likes to claim lol?

I have to agree with FP.

The sad truth is politics are more important than performance when it comes to the MiC.

Zivo wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:They're just looking for justifications for a choice already made, the political choice in favour of the AK-12 and the support of all the fatcats there at Izhmash.

The AEK-971 is a marvelous assault rifle according to everyone who has ever tried it; I mean can you imagine burst or automatic fire with only a fraction of the recoil? And now this innovative rifle is going to be lost to the anus of military-industrial lobbying and Russia's equivalent of 'big business' suppressing the small guy. Damn them all.

Your making such claims with no internal information. What's your evidence that the choice is purely based of politics and lobbying? Last time I checked the AKM, and AK-74 are some of the greatest rifles that ever graced the battlefield, your going to tell me one of the greatest gunsmithing organizations that ever existed just just made a 'tacti-cool' rifle for 'shits-and-giggles', like that zealot 'kathi' off of mp.net likes to claim lol?

I have to agree with FP.

The sad truth is politics are more important than performance when it comes to weaponry.

We need some hard evidence to back such claims. The claims that the Iveco truck deal was political-motivated was actually proven with actual empirical evidence, combined with the fact that Serudykov was kicked out of office in disgrace. This isn't the first time that the Kalashnikov rifle has been besmirched with erroneous claims, how many decades have we heard that the Kalashnikov brand was 'arming the terrorist armies of the world', when in reality almost all the AKM's on the black market are downgraded unlicensed Chinese copies of the AKM rifle. We need some 'Prima Faci' evidence to back such claims, otherwise the Kalashnikov family of rifles legendary tradition should take precedence over anything else.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Zivo wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:They're just looking for justifications for a choice already made, the political choice in favour of the AK-12 and the support of all the fatcats there at Izhmash.

The AEK-971 is a marvelous assault rifle according to everyone who has ever tried it; I mean can you imagine burst or automatic fire with only a fraction of the recoil? And now this innovative rifle is going to be lost to the anus of military-industrial lobbying and Russia's equivalent of 'big business' suppressing the small guy. Damn them all.

Your making such claims with no internal information. What's your evidence that the choice is purely based of politics and lobbying? Last time I checked the AKM, and AK-74 are some of the greatest rifles that ever graced the battlefield, your going to tell me one of the greatest gunsmithing organizations that ever existed just just made a 'tacti-cool' rifle for 'shits-and-giggles', like that zealot 'kathi' off of mp.net likes to claim lol?

I have to agree with FP.

The sad truth is politics are more important than performance when it comes to weaponry.

We need some hard evidence to back such claims. The claims that the Iveco truck deal was political-motivated was actually proven with actual empirical evidence, combined with the fact that Serudykov was kicked out of office in disgrace. This isn't the first time that the Kalashnikov rifle has been besmirched with erroneous claims, how many decades have we heard that the Kalashnikov brand was 'arming the terrorist armies of the world', when in reality almost all the AKM's on the black market are downgraded unlicensed Chinese copies of the AKM rifle. We need some 'Prima Faci' evidence to back such claims, otherwise the Kalashnikov family of rifles legendary tradition should take precedence over anything else.

I respect the manufacturers, lets be clear about that.

The AK-12 is just so vanilla. The optics rail/dust cover looks flimsy. The stock lacks a cheek riser. It lacks a flared magwell of any sort, more rock and lock clumsy reloading. The front sight post, even on the standard infantry rifle variant should be integrated with the gas block. The only real impressive difference compared to say an AK-74 is the modularity.

The A-545 addresses more of the problems of the AK-74, the rifle that both the AK-12 and A-545 were competing to replace. A lot of people are thinking about A vs. B, but the winner still has to be much better than C to justify the cost of replacement. This is a major hurdle facing practically all next gen combat rifle decisions around the globe.

To me, the selection seems like a creative way to bail out the Kalashnikov brand. Which is important, especially in the face of the newly restricted US civilian market thanks to these fucking sanctions.

I also aggree with FP, lobbyism always exists and that is not a statement without any knowledge of it. The point that is always addressed towards the AEK-971 that they have "concerns" with the reliability, they only state "concerns" not actual numbers of how many AEK-971 have reliability issues or how many have jammed in comperision with AK-12. The AEK-971 counter balancing recoil mechanism is at simple as it can be made, it is so freaking simple that actually i find it astonishing that this technology wasn't developed already the first time Assault Rifles were fielded for the common grunt.

I have no problem with AK-12 entering service with the regular troops, but to lobby against AEK-971 in that kind of sense is just not fair and counterproductive. The AEK-971 should enter definetley service with more specialized services.

The AK-12 is already surpassing any current rifle in any army in terms of reliability, accuracy and ballistical performance (within its calibre), but like Zivo has pointed out that it could have better ergonomics like it was presented in the first models which were proposed for testing, cheekraiser, better handguard and overall better arrangement of the handguard and attachments. What i dislike is that both have changed from a great russian buttstock to this flimsy nonsense that is currently used, ugly, worse in capability, lower lifespan and they will loose up after much shorter time than the buttstocks that are more robust.