Russia in Indian Armed Forces Tenders:

TR1 wrote:
India should forget all this and make strategic AD a priority + immediately purchase Antei-2500.
GO BIG OR GO HOME!

Finally your posts are making sense . India was offered the THAAD , they rejected . PAC 3 rejected . They have this huge inflated ego that with their screw driver technology they can achieve great technological breakthroughs .

I hear they have some in house designed SAM system in place called AAD. For any NATO force defeating such low grade SAM systems would be a walk in a park .

And yet your posts still make no sense.

India is buying foreign SHORAD systems, what does that have to do with pride?
I guess it really hurt your ego that India has no interest in Patriot and its variants

TR1 wrote:Weird, they are replacing Kub with SHORAD?
Also, if they want a gun + missile chassis, Pantsir is really the only choice they have.

India should forget all this and make strategic AD a priority + immediately purchase Antei-2500.
GO BIG OR GO HOME!

Strangely it may sound Pancir-S1 is comparable with KUB in range and altitude but much better in basically all the rest.

Kub will have better energy @ the extremes of the engagement envelope though, I am sure. Anyways that is Akash territory isn't it?
It is pretty crazy that Pantsir reaches out to 20km (or 25km+ with the new rocket) but there is only so much a small missile can do.

TR1 wrote:Kub will have better energy @ the extremes of the engagement envelope though, I am sure. Anyways that is Akash territory isn't it?
It is pretty crazy that Pantsir reaches out to 20km (or 25km+ with the new rocket) but there is only so much a small missile can do.

True.

I was most astonished how 9M96M2 missile can reach 160 km in range and 30 km in altitude, what was before reserved to only 48N6

series and still they occupy only 1/4 of the 48N6 volume. Now that has a lot to do with the size of the warhead which Garry correctly

explained but still advancement in technology in general made it possible. In the near future it will be become extremely difficult to plan

an air attack even on a moderately strong country with modern air defense.

Since the IA is already in possession of 2S2 Tunguska-Ms the ideal system for India would be the Tunguska-M1 possibly with certain enhancements to suit India's needs.

Delhi & Mumbai have already been selected in the first phase of the BMD installation .

The strategic planning has already begun to install the BMD system in the two cities and the final proposal will be put before the government after detailed analysis of the entire project.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-06-24/india/32392757_1_bmd-missile-system-enemy-missiles


A number of air defense assets have been upgraded since the early 1990s with Polish assistance .

Akash MK1 is already operational and MK2 is currently being tested. DRDO is increasing the range of Akash by using a better composite booster with lengthened booster section

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/iaf-inducts-the-akash-missile_10047471.html

There’s plenty of Igla-S VSHORADS available in the country .

It is pretty crazy that Pantsir reaches out to 20km (or 25km+ with the new rocket) but there is only so much a small missile can do.

Actually range is interesting, though two stage missiles should have good range, the thing I find impressive is the altitude of 15km as an engagement ceiling... previously if you wanted to hit something above 5km altitude you absolutely needed a medium or long range SAM which was big and generally very expensive and not so mobile.

Attacking forces could fly high to avoid most of the enemy fire and rely on the fact that anything big enough to reach up high would be huge and few in number and should be easily spotted fairly early on.

The Patnsir-S1 changes that...

The request for proposals (RFPs) for the $11.8-bn Project 75-I submarines of the Indian Navy is expected to be issued shortly.

Senior officials in the ministry of defence (MoD) told FE, ‘‘By mid-September-October, the delayed RFP will be issued. The Defence Acquisition Committee had already cleared the proposal; however, it was not issued as some more changes were made to the initial document.’’

‘‘Two submarines would be acquired from a selected foreign shipyard and the remaining four would be built by the state-owned Mazagon Dock and Hindustan Shipyard. Apart from plans to allow private local shipbuilders to participate in this project, the BrahMos’ naval version is expected to be added on to these submarines.’’ The BrahMos missile is fully ready for fitment in the Project 75-I(India) submarines of the Indian Navy in vertical launch configuration, which will make the platform (submarine) one of the most powerful weapon platforms in the world,” said BrahMos CMD and CEO A Sivathanu Pillai, after the underwater Brahmos Launch.

Foreign companies, including Rosoboronexport’s Amur 1650 (Russia), DCNS’s Scorpene (France), HDW Type 214 (Germany) and Navantia’s S-80 (Spain) were the possible candidates for the P75-I $11.8-billion project. However, officials said the Spanish company has withdrawn its technical specifications due to weight issues with their submarine.

With dismal underwater combat capability due to the tardy rate of acquisition of submarines, the Indian Navy plans to oversee and fast-track all its submarine acquisition plans to match its fleet with that of its neighbouring countries.

The primary focus of the Indian Navy is the Project-75 India (P-75i) programme, wherein the acquisition of six new stealth submarines, equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP (air-independent propulsion) for enhanced underwater capability, is envisaged. The plan is to directly import two submarines from the foreign collaborator eventually selected, with the next three being built at MDL in Mumbai, and the sixth at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam under transfer of technology.

While the Indian Navy has been anxious to get the P-75i project rolling, the earlier programme — Project-75, which involves construction of six Scorpene submarines at the state-owned Mazagon Docks, in collaboration with DCNS of France — has been delayed until 2015.

India has almost all major components of P 75i ready indigenously. Larsen & Toubro’s UG NX5 & PLM Software Team Centre has the capability for design and development of structural and engineering parts. With design inputs from DRDO and Indian Navy’s design outfit, L&T’s Submarine Design Centre created detailed engineering for nuclear submarine, INS Arihant, using the latest 3D modeling and product data management software. L&T- built launchers have been used for firing both underwater Brahmos Missile and nuclear-capable 750-km K-15/B-05 missiles. The company also devised the firing circuit for BrahMos on the lines of Harpoon missile.

india has begun the process of acquiring howitzer guns of various types. The contracts would be worth hundreds of millions of dollars each and their combined value is likely to be well over a billion dollars.

India has set aside $4 billion for its artillery projects, neglected for decades largely due to political controversies and corruption scandals. The development is significant for two reasons.

One, the Indian Army has not purchased a single gun since the infamous Bofors deal 27 years ago, a deal that rocked the Indian political establishment and implicated then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and other senior Indian officials. Eventually though none of the charges could be proved.

Two, the gun deals may be going through despite the fact that India, due to have general elections in less than ten months, seems to have put an unannounced freeze on any defence deals, particularly with foreign companies.

Russia will have have an important role to play in at least one of the upcoming howitzer contracts, expected to be worth around $350 million. Russian Rosoboronexport seems ideally suited for supplying 100 self-propelled tracked howitzer guns to the Indian Army and the trials are slated to begin later this month itself.

Rosoboronexport is likely to be pitted against an unlikely rival: Larsen&Toubro, an Indian company. L&T has been issued industrial licenses for a wide range of products after Government of India’s decision to open up defence production to the private sector. The licenses issued cover design, development, construction/ manufacturing and assembly of a wide range of defence equipment, arms and armaments and weapon launchers.

Insiders say that L&T is expected to give the Russian company very stiff competition. The L&T howitzers have been built in collaboration with South Korean Samsung Techwin, which means that the Russian companies’ rivals in the Indian defence industry are increasing by the day.

The South Korean company has already signed a contract with L&T for making key technologies available to the Indian company and producing the guns here.

This sends out another important message to the Russian defence industry that has not done too well in the Indian defence sector lately, and the Russians have lost out to American, European and even Israeli companies on several big-ticket defence deals.

The message is this: the Russians need to develop Indian partners, the more the better, as recent policy guidelines from the Indian defence ministry have laid huge stress on the ‘buy Indian’ theme.

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony’s statement in Parliament on 6 May should leave no one in doubt on this score.

This is what he said while confirming the upcoming contract for 100 guns: “A case for procurement of Qty.100 x 155mm/52 Caliber Tracked (self-propelled) guns is in progress wherein three Indian vendors, including two private sector companies, have been selected for trials of their equipment. The recent amendments to the DPP-2011 which have been accepted by the Defence Acquisition Council aim to give higher preference to indigenous capacity in the Defence Sector.”

The recent Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) guidelines have made it clear that the Indian government will choose to import defence goods only as a last resort and in cases where the required technologies are not available within the country. However, these guidelines have left enough room for foreign companies to forge joint ventures with Indian companies.

The Indian Army modernisation programme is quite ambitious. It has plans to induct 2,814 guns of different types, capabilities and calibre. Assuming for argument sake that the Indian Army was to induct all these guns, from foreign as well as domestic sources, at one go, it would cost around ten billion dollars at current exchange rates.

However, the actual process will take years. The current contract of 100 guns itself is unlikely to be inked this year as the trial phase itself would spill over to the first quarter of next year. The guns will be undergoing winter trials this year-end.

Moreover, given the renewed focus on self-reliance and indigenisation, the Indian Army has asked the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board to deliver over 300 indigenous versions of Bofors guns.

The Indian Army’s current guns stock is believed to have touched an all time low of just about 200 operations guns of 155/39 caliber, one of the reasons behind the then Army Chief General VK Singh shooting off a no-holds-barred letter to Prime MinisterManmohan Singh about the dire state of Indian military preparedness last year.

There is yet another message for the Russians that booms out loud and clear from the Indian guns saga. The Russians need to translate their deep political clout with the Government of India into bagging big Indian defence contracts through the government-to-government route.

In May last year, the Indian defence ministry had cleared a $660 million deal for buying 145 ultra-light M777 guns from the United States. The move was duly cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council headed by the defence minister. A significant feature of the M777 deal is that the guns are being bought under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme of the US government, a government-to-government route.

The Russians are not unaware of this. In fact, the new Russian strategy vis a vis Indian defence industry will be very much visible in the upcoming top-level Indo-Russian bilateral exchanges from September onwards

Sounds to me like the Indians have decided there are two ways to get Russian products into Indian service... Government to government contracts with no competition, or joint ventures with a local company... the latter basically the way the US and Russia do it themselves.

All these contracts India is putting out... you'd think at a time when Russia is going through the process of completely re-equipping that waiting till 2015-16 might be beneficial.

As mentioned they haven't bought new guns for almost 30 years... I would think waiting another couple of years to see what toys the Russians are cooking up for themselves would pay dividends.

Just look at exotic items like the silent mortar and the automatic mortar:

india may not have a couple of years .. remember in my old posts i had mentioned there will be conflict with china ...but sujoy said no

right now china is increasing intruding in indian Territory and pakistan has also stepped up incursions .... indian army is not prepared at all and with Week Goverment on india it adds salt to the wounds .....

we will have to buy now and wait for the new products and buy them again ... this is a sad truth about indian bureaucracy ... the 6 scorpion subs will now be obsolete by the time they are made and inducted .... LCA Tejas was supposed to fill in the gap of Mig21s and now we buy rafale to fill in the gap for that .cuz tejas is delayed Now rafale is delayed its been 2 years since it was selected .... there r many examples like these ..... indian tax payer keeps suffering and the GOI keeps Sleeping

India requests 145 Howitzers at $885 mn from US

The US Department of Defense has notified the Congress the sale of 145 state-of-the-art 155mm towed Howitzers to India worth about USD 885 million. The Indian Government has requested a sale of 145 M777 155mm light-weight towed Howitzers with laser inertial artillery pointing systems (LINAPS), warranty, spare and repair parts, maintenance, and training equipment, the Department of Defense said in a notification.The estimated cost is USD 885 million, it said.

“This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to strengthen the US-India strategic relationship and to improve the security of an important partner which continues to be a for political stability, peace, and economic progress in South Asia,” theSecurity Cooperation Agency (DSCA) said in a statement this week.

The Congress was notified on August 2.

India intends to use the Howitzers to modernise its armed forces and enhance its ability to operate in hazardous conditions, DSCA said, adding that India will have no difficulty absorbing these weapons into its armed forces.

“The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region,” it said.

DSCA said implementation of this proposed sale will require annual trips to India involving up to eight US Government and contractor representatives for technical reviews/support, training, and in-country trials for a period of approximately two years.

There will be no adverse impact on US defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale, it said.

The M777 155mm Light-Weight Towed Howitzers made its debut in the war in Afghanistan.

In addition to the United States Army, it is also used by the Australian and Canadian armies.

Saudi Arabia has also ordered for M777 Howitzers. star and launched her quest to restore the company to glory.


Why russia is still waiting ????

The contract for the Self Propelled howitzers seems more interesting to me... and if India is not going to allow one country to win all its defence contracts then Russia needs to pick its contracts it wants to win and be more selective in what it promotes.

Going forward. This will be a huge deal for either Russian company.

"Tor-M2E" and "Shell" will compete in the Indian tender


LINK

Strangely it may sound Pancir-S1 is comparable with KUB in range and altitude but much better in basically all the rest.

The main advantage of Kub (cube... which is why the translator calls it square) is the mass of the warhead.

Of course a much smaller warhead can still do the job is it is more accurately placed near the target before detonation.

Also with air to air warheads the Pantsir-S1 uses what is called an expanding rod warhead where length is actually more important that mass as the warhead contains metal rods linked together which, as they expand form a ring of expanding rods that can cut off wings or tails or slash through aircraft bodies. The very long warhead of the Pantsir-S1 makes the warhead rather more effective on aerial targets.

52 Tor or Pantsir will be indeed a nice boost for their respective producers, if the deal goes through.

mack8 wrote:52 Tor or Pantsir will be indeed a nice boost for their respective producers, if the deal goes through.

Actually tender is for 104 fire units (expanded) LINK - meaning not accounted are support, command, radar and other units. 

Here are new information about the Russian offer. 

KBP presents new Pantsir capabilities
KBP (Konstruktorskoye Byuro Priborostroyenia), part of Visikotocsnie Kompleksi (High Precision Complexes) is offering the latest variant of its 96K6 Pantsir-S1 (SA-22 'Greyhound') hybrid gun-missile system as a candidate to meet India's requirement for a new short-range air-defence system.
At the recent MAKS-2013 exhibition near Moscow, the company showed the 72V6-E4 combat vehicle of the Pantsir system, the new 19S6-3E battery/regiment level command post, and the Kornet-EM combat vehicle.
This was the second public appearance of the 72V6-E4 combat vehicle, which was first shown last year as part of the celebration of 100 years of the Russian Air Force.
The main difference between the 72V6-E4 and the earlier 72V6-E2 is the use of a surveillance radar incorporating a new dual-face phased-array antenna. The fire-control radar, guns, and missiles are unchanged. At MAKS, the 72V6-E4 was shown on a Kamaz-6350 four-axle truck.
The new 19S6-3E automated command and control system is intended to serve as a battery or regimental command post. Within the cabin are three ARM (avtomatiyirovannoze rabocseye mesto) automated workplaces, a work position for the driver, and two beds that allow crew members to rest.
From left to right, the fire-unit workstations are the ARM-R (operator razvedki) used by the intelligence officer, the ARM-K (komandir) for the commander, and the ARM-O (operator kontrolya boyevimi deystviyami) for the combat activity supervision operator.
The 19S6-3E command post can be in action within five minutes of reaching a suitable location. It uses radio, cable, or fibre-optic links to interconnect with up to 10 information sources.
When used as a fire battery command post, a 19S6-E3 can control up to six 72V6 type combat vehicles up to a distance of 10-20 km, and track up to 120 aerial targets simultaneously. It will exchange data with the combat vehicles and neighbouring (up to 40 km distant) command posts once per second.
If used as a regimental command and control system, the 19S6-E3 can control up to three subordinate battery command posts.
As information sources, the manufacturer suggests the Kasta-2E2 surveillance radar or the PU-12M6 mobile command and control vehicle. The refresh rate of received data would be 5-10 seconds and 10 seconds respectively.
KBP is also proposing that a Pantsir-S1 system firing battery could be linked to vehicles armed with the Kornet-EM (AT-14 'Spriggan') antitank missile system. This concept is at an early stage, and the company is preparing for proving-ground trials of a 72V6 combat vehicle linked to two Kornet-EM vehicles. In the longer-term, it proposes a formation consisting of six 72V6 combat vehicles, 12 Kornet-EM vehicles and one 19S6-3E battery command post.


http://www.janes.com/article/27950/kbp-presents-new-pantsir-capabilities

Interesting that they want to incorporate the Kornet-EM.

Of course it makes sense as while they lack the range they are also a fraction of the cost of the SA-22 missiles and might be better suited to engaging some targets like UAVs or Helos or of course ground targets...

I thought Kornet-EM was laser guided?

Laser beam riding.

GarryB wrote:Interesting that they want to incorporate the Kornet-EM.

Of course it makes sense as while they lack the range they are also a fraction of the cost of the SA-22 missiles and might be better suited to engaging some targets like UAVs or Helos or of course ground targets...

Yes GarryB , you detected exactly the point.

Here Alexander Denisov CEO of "High-Precision Systems” explain exactly how the very high cost-efficiency is the first rational behind integration of Kornet-M with Pantsyr-S's command and control vehicle.

Moreover it explain how in tests Kornet-EM ,when paired with the new command and control system, has shown a Phit of 99.99% against low-flying aircraft , helicopters and UAV (thanks mostly to the very advanced universal automatic target-tracking-system ,the greatly improved aerodynamic performances of the missile itself, increased lethality of its warhead and efficiency of its proximity fuse).


http://vpk.name/news/96833_aleksandr_denisov_v_2017_godu_pancir_budet_imet_sovershenno_drugie_harakteristiki.html

The auto tracking system of the Kornet-EM is supposed to increase performance 4-5 times which allows target engagement at 8-10km depending on the missile type, but the guidance and tracking systems on the Pantsir-S1 will be even more capable.

The fact that they can be used together with Kornet-EM will make the latter system vastly more effective because the ability to detect and track the target in the first place is critical and despite being a neat system the Kornet is still just an ATGM system with an upgrade. Giving it full IADS capability and guidance will mean it will be much more effective at taking on air targets yet it retains its low cost...

Win win.

Pancir-S1 on exhibit in India. I was hopping that the India tender for SAMs will develop much faster.

Layout ZRPK "Carapace-C1" submit CBI in India

Hopefully - something will happen


In India for the first time present a sample combat module SAM "Thor M2KM"

In addition to SAM "Thor M2KM" visitors and exhibitors "DEFEKSPO INDIA - 2014" will be acquainted with the names of more than 40 military and civilian, develops and manufactures enterprises of concern. In the form of models and posters will be presented to the S-300 VM ("Antey-2500"), S-400 "Triumph" air defense system "Buk-M2E" SAM "Tor-M2E" missiles from the integrated missile system Club, RFCs "demonstrator" and others.

Brahmos + Amour 1650 combo  for Indian navy  


Russia may offer India submarine missile "BrahMos"