Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decommissions

eehnie wrote:Interesting. Both counts seem to be very coincident.

https://russianplanes.net/planelist/Beriev/Be-12

Listed as active:

http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/33411  <-->  29-04  1973  RF-12009  Nº20
http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/33282  <-->  21-02  1970  RF-12010  Nº29
http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/33405  <-->  29-02  1973  RF-12007  Nº12
http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/33345  <-->  26-02  1972  XXxxxxxx  Nº01
http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/32997  <-->  29-01  1973  RF-12006  Nº10

To the reserve in 2016.

http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/32991  <-->  28-02  1973  RF-12012  Nº28
http://russianplanes.net/reginfo/33396  <-->  28-03  1973  XXxxxxxx  Nº 76  RESERVE/REPAIRS

The difference seems to be that very recently the Nº28 rejoined the base of Sebastopol after some paint and repair. If you see the link now there are very recent photos of the aircraft painted that were not at the time of my previous comment. Surely the web will be updated to include the return of the aircraft to active service, but until now they updated the new pictures with the aircraft painted.

The last of the links is just about the Nº76 about which you commented that have not be seen in fly for several years and is probably in repair plant. Just the link also says the aircraft is in Yevpatoria (Crimea), in the repair plant, but really I do not know if it is for repairing or to become spare parts.

In fact if you check every link for the Russian Be-12 listed by russianplanes.net as in the reserve, there is a reference of where the aircraft is or was sometime ago.

The last aircraft that gives me some doubt about if can be recovered or not is this one, in the reserve since 2008. Maybe you know something about it:

https://russianplanes.net/reginfo/33009  <-->  Nº15

About the overall replacement of the Be-12, my guess is that in the short term maybe done with some of the upgraded Il-38. If I'm not wrong, the contracted number of Il-38 to upgrade is a little bigger than the current number of Il-38 in active service. The surpluss maybe to take also the position of the Be-12 in Sebastopol. The last Be-12, I think they can go to Syria, maybe to work under Russian flag in the Russian base there, or maybe to work under Syrian flag. It would work a little more, but the aircraft seems almost exhausted.

eehnie wrote:https://slavasev.ru/2017/12/06/memorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev/

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fslavasev.ru%2F2017%2F12%2F06%2Fmemorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev%2F&sandbox=1

There is a new memorial with a Be-12 in Mirny, Yevpatoria, Crimea.



It seems a well restored unit, keeping even its engines (rare). Time to find which unit is this one.

franco wrote:

eehnie wrote:https://slavasev.ru/2017/12/06/memorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev/

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fslavasev.ru%2F2017%2F12%2F06%2Fmemorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev%2F&sandbox=1

There is a new memorial with a Be-12 in Mirny, Yevpatoria, Crimea.



It seems a well restored unit, keeping even its engines (rare). Time to find which unit is this one.

318th Naval Aviation Mixed Regiment... last information that I have is 5 Be-12's still active with the unit.

eehnie wrote:

franco wrote:

eehnie wrote:https://slavasev.ru/2017/12/06/memorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev/

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fslavasev.ru%2F2017%2F12%2F06%2Fmemorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev%2F&sandbox=1

There is a new memorial with a Be-12 in Mirny, Yevpatoria, Crimea.



It seems a well restored unit, keeping even its engines (rare). Time to find which unit is this one.

318th Naval Aviation Mixed Regiment... last information that I have is 5 Be-12's still active with the unit.

Thank you, there is some report about this unit disbanded in 2009 (check the first comment of this page). Has been the unit recovered or something?

Also interesting to identify which aircraft wold be exactly used for the memorial, maybe one of the last remaining active?

franco wrote:

eehnie wrote:

franco wrote:

eehnie wrote:https://slavasev.ru/2017/12/06/memorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev/

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fslavasev.ru%2F2017%2F12%2F06%2Fmemorialnyiy-be-12-v-pamyat-o-podvige-flotskih-aviatorov-chernomortsev%2F&sandbox=1

There is a new memorial with a Be-12 in Mirny, Yevpatoria, Crimea.



It seems a well restored unit, keeping even its engines (rare). Time to find which unit is this one.

318th Naval Aviation Mixed Regiment... last information that I have is 5 Be-12's still active with the unit.

Thank you, there is some report about this unit disbanded in 2009 (check the first comment of this page). Has been the unit recovered or something?

Also interesting to identify which aircraft wold be exactly used for the memorial, maybe one of the last remaining active?

My first response was that this unit never disbanded but then it clicked in. During the Serdyukov reforms, the Aviation regiments were all changed to Airbases. But under Shoygu, they reverted back to being called Regiments. So they always were active... just the name was different.

Russian Navy to Upgrade its Soviet-era Be-12 ASW Amphibious Aircraft

January 2018 Navy Naval Defense Industry News

POSTED ON SUNDAY, 21 JANUARY 2018 16:57

The main Russian Navy command decided to upgrade antisubmarine amphibious Be-12 aircraft. They will be able to take off and land both on ground airfields and on water. The modernization will give Be-12 a completely new targeting system and modern arms. Be-12 are the oldest aircraft operational in the Russian armed forces, the Izvestia daily reported.

Beriev Be 12 Chayka ASW MPA amphibous aircraft russia 1The Beriev Be-12 Chayka ("Seagull", NATO reporting name: Mail) is a Soviet turboprop-powered amphibious aircraft designed for anti-submarine and maritime patrol duties. Picture by Romanoff via airforce.ru.

The Navy command told the newspaper the decision to modernize Be-12 had been adopted. At present the technical assignment is drafted, as well as documents to launch R&D to upgrade onboard equipment of the aircraft.

Be-12 will radically modernize all the three sets for obtaining reconnaissance information on adversary submarines: hydro-acoustic (detects the submarine noise), radar and magnetic (finds submarines by magnetic emission of the hull). The upgraded aircraft will have modern antisubmarine torpedoes and depth bombs.

Be-12 made its maiden flight in 1960. It has a V-shaped arched wing to facilitate takeoff from water. The lower part of the fuselage has a ship outline which allows Be-12 to land and take off from water in three-force storm. The speed is over 500 km/h. Fuel reserve allows the aircraft to fly over 4 thousand km or conduct a patrol mission for several hours. The plane is armed with mines, torpedoes and bombs.

Beriev Be 12 Chayka ASW MPA amphibous aircraft russia 2The Beriev Be-12 Chayka ("Seagull", NATO reporting name: Mail) is a Soviet turboprop-powered amphibious aircraft designed for anti-submarine and maritime patrol duties. Picture by Romanoff via airforce.ru.

Expert Oleg Panteleyev said the examination of the existing Be-12 fleet showed the amphibious aircraft still have sufficient resource of the glider and the power plant and an upgrade will keep them operational.

"Combat effectiveness of Be-12 can be considerably increased by upgrading submarine-detecting equipment and other systems, mostly communications which will integrate the aircraft into the common contour of antisubmarine warfare control," he said.

Expert Alexander Mozgovoy said Be-12 upgrade will enhance antisubmarine capabilities of the Navy in coastal areas. "It was a very successful aircraft for its time. With upgraded equipment it will effectively control coastal waters. Be-12 is necessary for small water areas, for example, the Black and Baltic Seas. It is not intended for long-term patrol over the ocean or operations in rough seas," he said.

143 Be-12 were produced in 1960-1973. They were operational in all Soviet fleets. In the Pacific fleet Be-12 operated in the 289th separate antisubmarine and 317th combined air regiments. The Black Sea and Northern fleets had one antisubmarine amphibious aircraft regiment each. The 49th separate squadron of Be-12 of the Baltic fleet was deployed in Kaliningrad.

Practically all Be-12 were decommissioned in 1993-1998. The last six aircraft are operational in the 318th air regiment of the Black Sea fleet. Close to a dozen are kept at the air works in Taganrog and the Ostrov airfield, the Izvestia writes.

Copyright 2018 TASS. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

eehnie wrote:I commented previously about the CAS fighting style as an obsolete fighting style. To add something new...

The problem with CAS is that in presence of MANPADS, the aircrafts are losers. Neither the advanced systems saved some helicopters from a hit. Manned CAS is a loser because the development and production of MANPADS is far cheaper than the development and production of manned aircraft and helicopters for CAS, and the loses on pilots are worse still.

High altitude is the solution for manned aircrafts and helicopters. The problem at this point is not in the aircrafts or helicopters, even if are not modernized. The Su-25, Ka-50/52, Mi-28 have still some margin over the current generation of MANPADS (designed by Russia to give them a chance still). In the case of the Mi-8/.../14/.../24/... have a lower chance (if I remember well would depend of the variants), but if they become not useful for combat, always can be used as auxiliary helicopters.

The use of these aircrafts and helicopters must continue in a different but even more intensive way, taking into account their difficult future, because very likely they will be unable to survive to the next generation of MANPADS.

Today the problem to abandon permanently the CAS fighting style would be more in the remaining stocks of CAS ammunition. Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-25_(rocket)   (only some variants)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-13_rocket   (only some variants)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-24_rocket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-8_(rocket)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-5_rocket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMGU

Is not far the time when the material of the second group gets totally out of the inventary of the manned aircrafts and helicopters.

But taking into account that succeed as CAS ammunition, this only would mean that these ammunitions likely will become a very important part of the armament of future CAS UAVs.

It means that today is perfectly possible to abandon permanently the CAS fighting style.

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:I commented previously about the CAS fighting style as an obsolete fighting style. To add something new...

The problem with CAS is that in presence of MANPADS, the aircrafts are losers. Neither the advanced systems saved some helicopters from a hit. Manned CAS is a loser because the development and production of MANPADS is far cheaper than the development and production of manned aircraft and helicopters for CAS, and the loses on pilots are worse still.

High altitude is the solution for manned aircrafts and helicopters. The problem at this point is not in the aircrafts or helicopters, even if are not modernized. The Su-25, Ka-50/52, Mi-28 have still some margin over the current generation of MANPADS (designed by Russia to give them a chance still). In the case of the Mi-8/.../14/.../24/... have a lower chance (if I remember well would depend of the variants), but if they become not useful for combat, always can be used as auxiliary helicopters.

The use of these aircrafts and helicopters must continue in a different but even more intensive way, taking into account their difficult future, because very likely they will be unable to survive to the next generation of MANPADS.

Today the problem to abandon permanently the CAS fighting style would be more in the remaining stocks of CAS ammunition. Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-25_(rocket)   (only some variants)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-13_rocket   (only some variants)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-24_rocket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-8_(rocket)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-5_rocket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMGU

Is not far the time when the material of the second group gets totally out of the inventary of the manned aircrafts and helicopters.

But taking into account that succeed as CAS ammunition, this only would mean that these ammunitions likely will become a very important part of the armament of future CAS UAVs.

It means that today is perfectly possible to abandon permanently the CAS fighting style.

You can't win a war without loosing some hardware.

CAS are usefull for conventional wars. When they decided to build the A-10 Americans were expecting to loose all their fleet after some months against the Soviets but they would have destroyed enough ground forces to stop an invasion (that's what US though at the time).

It should be the same with su-25. The plane will probably engage first and destroy lot of vehicle before it is engaged by the ground forces.

Manpads are not known to be that dangerous. Pk is very low and engagement zone is small. If you know it is lunched, some flares and some evasive turns will be enough to escape the missile.

Against a conventional opponent manpads will be covered by some BUKs or other long range systems so if you fly high you will be engaged by more dangerous systems.

Su-25 can survive a hit of manpad, pilot will survive anyway. S-300 missiles are big and chance of surviving close to 0 for a Su-25 or A-10. Better go against the manpad.

Drones are shit technology. You can jam all of them and they are easy targets for aviation.

GarryB wrote:UAVs are never cheap... the datalinks and the sensors and the weapons they carry will mean they are never cheap, but unless you spend even more on countermeasures and self defence systems they will be incredibly vulnerable to even the oldest SAM platform... meaning dreadfully easy to shoot down...

eehnie wrote:Isos, this price is of the 1980s.

The cost of Mi-8 family combat helicopters seems to be now over 250 Millions of Rubles.

Safe enough to say that almost all the CAS UAVs  will be under the price of a Mi-8 family combat helicopter. Without taking into account the costs of human loses.

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:Isos, this price is of the 1980s.

The cost of Mi-8 family combat helicopters seems to be now over 250 Millions of Rubles.

Safe enough to say that almost all the CAS UAVs  will be under the price of a Mi-8 family combat helicopter. Without taking into account the costs of human loses.

Now it is Mi-17 not Mi-8. Much newer and better so it is more expensive. Give the price in dollars I have no dea what is the vale of Rubles.

The price of a Su-25 would be higher today, still lower than that of bombers and fighter, but the cost/effictivness ratio is much better than UAV's. Cheap UAV can't carry what Su-25 can carry just look at pictures of it full loaded.

Su-25T which is what they should have put in service instead of the normal SU-25 is the best choice for CAS. modern UAV like predator will have couple of missiles while Su-25 can carry ARM, anti tank missile (pod of 8 missiles), bombs, rockets and fuel tanks.

GarryB wrote:The problem Eehnie, is that if air defences make CAS manned aircraft obsolete then that makes all CAS aircraft obsolete...

Even if you could get 100 UAVs for the price of one Su-25, even small arms fire will bring down a UAV.

To protect your UAVs from enemy attack means armour and self defence suites of ECM equipment and guess what... the cost of those UAVs just went up 500% and all of a sudden you can only get 5-10 UAVs for the price of one Su-25.

Now show me the UAV that is as effective in combat as an Su-25?

There is a reason they continue to use them and continue to upgrade them and plan for replacement models of CAS aircraft...

I would love to see a remote control UAV that can deal to the terrorists yet risk no pilot... that would be fantastic... but at the end of the day the terrorists the Russians are fighting are supported by the US and Israel and Saudi Arabia who have deep pockets and lots of high tech kit... the Russians seem to be able to deal with all the UAVs that have been used against them so far... do you think Israel or the US would do worse against Russian UAVs?

UAVs are great for surveillance, but not so good for combat... they have no self preservation capacity...