The Situation in the Ukraine. #20

I suggest reading his post again, going through his posting history and then performing quite a substantial edit of your post or outright deletion. I won't quote you because later you might feel ashamed about what you have written, and after all it is a misunderstanding.

EDIT: damage control ineffective

If Kiev says so it must be truth, especially if backed by such a genius military mind such us yourself. Of course they didn't back it up with any proof, Western own intelligence has dismissed all of that multiple times (except American intelligence, that great truth seekers), so all we have in the end is a nazi fuck who believes anything that fascist scum says. Kudos for being so open about your sick mind, and hopefully you'll be willing to do something about it. It's time for you to go to Donbass and fight "Putin's military" and put to use your genius.

Number 1 - what are you talking about?
Number 2 - please read my post just above this.

Erk wrote:20committee.com is the same site that says Snowden is a fraud.

If Kiev knows all this about how and where Russian military forces are, why is there still no decent video proof, and why is Kiev still shelling mainly civilian homes and buildings instead of this alleged Russian force?

Well after all Kyiv chief of staff admitted that 90% of Ukie intelligence information are bullshit.

Which explains many things.

higurashihougi wrote:

Erk wrote:20committee.com is the same site that says Snowden is a fraud.

If Kiev knows all this about how and where Russian military forces are, why is there still no decent video proof, and why is Kiev still shelling mainly civilian homes and buildings instead of this alleged Russian force?

Well after all Kyiv chief of staff admitted that 90% of Ukie intelligence information are bullshit.

Which explains many things.

Yes, but that was referring to last summer before the arrival of what is no doubt a large US SIGINT team in Kiev, with access to what are probably the best intelligence gathering assets in existence. Filtered for local use of course.

Given that knowledge and still building up their forces in the East, one has to have a deep feeling of concern about the next step. Has Kiev intentionally created a 'sacrificial' army, created in the certain knowledge that it will be slaughtered, designed to be the offering that generates a flow of money into Ukraine that can then be syphoned off for the greater good of the banksters, oligarchs and people on the inside, leaving a destitute Ukraine that can be bought for peanuts? All that is needed is a trigger.

JohninMK wrote:
Yes, but that was referring to last summer before the arrival of what is no doubt a large US SIGINT team in Kiev, with access to what are probably the best intelligence gathering assets in existence. Filtered for local use of course.

Given that knowledge and still building up their forces in the East, one has to have a deep feeling of concern about the next step. Has Kiev intentionally created a 'sacrificial' army, created in the certain knowledge that it will be slaughtered, designed to be the offering that generates a flow of money into Ukraine that can then be syphoned off for the greater good of the banksters, oligarchs and people on the inside, leaving a destitute Ukraine that can be bought for peanuts? All that is needed is a trigger.

Don't forget 2 things. You have to assume that there are plenty of pro-Moscow moles within the ranks of the VSU and if they have or had access to the information that US team is gathering there, they'd have shared it with their sources by now. Second, Russia has several satellite-tracking posts so they'll probably know what kind of spy satellites could be spying above Donbass and adjust NAF's actions accordingly by "maskirovka" or some other method which you and I are not aware of.

JohninMK wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:

Erk wrote:20committee.com is the same site that says Snowden is a fraud.

If Kiev knows all this about how and where Russian military forces are, why is there still no decent video proof, and why is Kiev still shelling mainly civilian homes and buildings instead of this alleged Russian force?

Well after all Kyiv chief of staff admitted that 90% of Ukie intelligence information are bullshit.

Which explains many things.

Yes, but that was referring to last summer before the arrival of what is no doubt a large US SIGINT team in Kiev, with access to what are probably the best intelligence gathering assets in existence. Filtered for local use of course.

Given that knowledge and still building up their forces in the East, one has to have a deep feeling of concern about the next step. Has Kiev intentionally created a 'sacrificial' army, created in the certain knowledge that it will be slaughtered, designed to be the offering that generates a flow of money into Ukraine that can then be syphoned off for the greater good of the banksters, oligarchs and people on the inside, leaving a destitute Ukraine that can be bought for peanuts? All that is needed is a trigger.

While continuing to play it is the "Russian Army" invading card and there is no Ukrainian opposition to Maiden... only Russian soldiers and a few ethnic Russian Ukrainians that should move back to Russia anyway.

Neutrality wrote:

JohninMK wrote:
Yes, but that was referring to last summer before the arrival of what is no doubt a large US SIGINT team in Kiev, with access to what are probably the best intelligence gathering assets in existence. Filtered for local use of course.

Given that knowledge and still building up their forces in the East, one has to have a deep feeling of concern about the next step. Has Kiev intentionally created a 'sacrificial' army, created in the certain knowledge that it will be slaughtered, designed to be the offering that generates a flow of money into Ukraine that can then be syphoned off for the greater good of the banksters, oligarchs and people on the inside, leaving a destitute Ukraine that can be bought for peanuts? All that is needed is a trigger.

Don't forget 2 things. You have to assume that there are plenty of pro-Moscow moles within the ranks of the VSU and if they have or had access to the information that US team is gathering there, they'd have shared it with their sources by now. Second, Russia has several satellite-tracking posts so they'll probably know what kind of spy satellites could be spying above Donbass and adjust NAF's actions accordingly by "maskirovka" or some other method which you and I are not aware of.

I say that goes for both sides. NATO or for sure the Americans are feeding intel to the Ukrainians while Russia is feeding intel to the NAF. To quote myself earlier "Both sides have a fairly good grasp on what the other side have. The NAF releasing planned invasion routes and units to be involved was their way of telling the UAF they were on to them. This is the UAF telling the NAF "Yeah!, but we know where you live too!" Old fashion psyops!"

franco wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

JohninMK wrote:
Yes, but that was referring to last summer before the arrival of what is no doubt a large US SIGINT team in Kiev, with access to what are probably the best intelligence gathering assets in existence. Filtered for local use of course.

Given that knowledge and still building up their forces in the East, one has to have a deep feeling of concern about the next step. Has Kiev intentionally created a 'sacrificial' army, created in the certain knowledge that it will be slaughtered, designed to be the offering that generates a flow of money into Ukraine that can then be syphoned off for the greater good of the banksters, oligarchs and people on the inside, leaving a destitute Ukraine that can be bought for peanuts? All that is needed is a trigger.

Don't forget 2 things. You have to assume that there are plenty of pro-Moscow moles within the ranks of the VSU and if they have or had access to the information that US team is gathering there, they'd have shared it with their sources by now. Second, Russia has several satellite-tracking posts so they'll probably know what kind of spy satellites could be spying above Donbass and adjust NAF's actions accordingly by "maskirovka" or some other method which you and I are not aware of.

I say that goes for both sides. NATO or for sure the Americans are feeding intel to the Ukrainians while Russia is feeding intel to the NAF. To quote myself earlier "Both sides have a fairly good grasp on what the other side have. The NAF releasing planned invasion routes and units to be involved was their way of telling the UAF they were on to them. This is the UAF telling the NAF "Yeah!, but we know where you live too!" Old fashion psyops!"

The difference is that the US is not nearly as close as Russia and this is Russia's "backyard".

Odessa burns. "Gagarin Plaza", a building barely finished and unoccupied. Fire brigade struggle due to not having the correct engines.

Khepesh wrote:Odessa burns. "Gagarin Plaza", a building barely finished and unoccupied. Fire brigade struggle due to not having the correct engines.

Read that their ladders only reach up 5 or 7 stories. Would be interesting to know who owns it, perhaps an oligarchy battle?

franco wrote:

Read that their ladders only reach up 5 or 7 stories. Would be interesting to know who owns it, perhaps an oligarchy battle?

Seems so, and said to be an electrical fault. I said in a post this morning that there was a possible flashpoint in Odessa today. Happened, but not the location I thought.

kvs wrote:

Viktor wrote:Nazi government doing its best

S & P predicts a decline in GDP of Ukraine by 15% in 2015

I guess those forecaster clowns must have read the news.   They were predicting a 2% GDP drop but then Ukraine's GDP
crashed by 17.6% as of the first quarter.   But these clowns are actually predicting that Ukraine's GDP will expand by over
2.6% in the last three quarters of 2015.   In the real world the 2nd quarter is likely to be a net contraction on and any
recovery will be in the second half.  

As noted by another poster the world is in a recession (unlike in 2008 China is contributing to pulling it down) so why would
there be any rebound in Ukraine at all?    So a more realistic forecast is for Ukraine's GDP to shrink by over 20% in 2015.

You're the only clown here, I keep trying to explain it to you, more for the benefit others than you I guess - what these figures actually mean and how to read them.

The economy in the first quarter was down 17.6% compared to the same period last year.
In the 2nd quarter it was something like 14.7%. So what, according to your logic the Ukrainian economy actually grew by 2.9% in the 2nd quarter?

No, it's just that in the 2nd quarter the Ukrainian economy was only 14.7% smaller than during the 2nd quarter of 2014 (last year); meaning that it didn't decline as fast in the 2nd quarter this year as in the 1st quarter this year; hence why the economy is as of latest figures only 14.7% smaller than it was during this period last year, as opposed to 17.6%.

So yes, it's very plausible that the Ukrainian economy will *only* decline by 15% this year, or less.

Oh, and don't bother accusing me of being a Western propagandist or NATO spy or whatever this time 'round. Really don't have the time for it.

Khepesh wrote:

franco wrote:

Read that their ladders only reach up 5 or 7 stories. Would be interesting to know who owns it, perhaps an oligarchy battle?

Seems so, and said to be an electrical fault. I said in a post this morning that there was a possible flashpoint in Odessa today. Happened, but not the location I thought.

No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.

If the people of Odessa didn't rise up a year ago then they won't do it today. Then they shouldn't expect Russia or NAF to do it for them.

flamming_python wrote:

No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.

A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

Khepesh wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.

A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

Which is exactly why it's a shame on them. So many lives perished just so that modern Odessitans could lay down and bend over to the neo-Nazi regime today. It's them "shitting on the corpses" of their grandparents, not us.

Erk wrote:

Viktor wrote:Nazi government doing its best

S & P predicts a decline in GDP of Ukraine by 15% in 2015

Economies all around the world are contracting, to get a real comparison you have to look at GDP (PPP) not nominal GDP which people like S&P default to using.

Here is their per capita GDP (PPP) http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp

It's less than half of what Russians, Belarusians, Polish earn. Ukraine was not doing very well by European standards, even before the junta took over the government. The economy is always being milked by the oligarchs, which holds back economic growth for the whole country. If you don't have the money to invest in plant and production because some oligarch is moving it offshore, then how can you grow?

No ,using dollars to compare Ukraine economy is perfectly valid for Ukraine ,they will be exporting NOTHING soon ,and Importing everything from American and Europe.. So they are basically turning ukraine into an American/european colony.. you cannot compare Ukraine economy with Russia in any remote way unless you are really ignorant.. Ukraine depends on Russia for energy and its on the middle of a war too.. and as i said their business are all of them shuting down.. the only thing Ukraine will sell in the future to Europe will be land.. Ukraine will be 100% private territory ,and owned by western elite.. this means than a massive depopulation of ukraine will be needed if they want to continue in power.
from 40 millions citizens ukraine will end with like 10 millions or less after the privatization ends. Ukraine will cease to be a country and will become  to be a western property.

The former Georgian President told it clearly how bad things are in Ukraine ,when he took
Odessa.. and he knows what is happening there.. he told that Ukraine will need 20 years..
to become its economy at the level of 2013 again.. when was about to be bankrupt and was asking Russia for loans.. but at that time all Ukraine business were operating on debt ..but still operating.  So the real economy of Ukraine is at the level of African nations..  It doesn't look like
that because Americans are Europeans are donating 10 to 15 $billions to them and holding the country so it doesn't collapse.. they are paying the salaries of the Ukraine Army.. But they will be unable to hold Ukraine for long and keep it as one Nation..   The stealing of IMF money y Oligarchs and the opposition friendly to Russia will make it impossible for Ukraine becoming completely taken...

All that it takes for Ukraine to collapse and disband in parts is that Russia lose the patience ,and
no longer see kiev that can be pressured into peace by Europe.. using plan B.. and that is creating a new front in other cities , that is new armed insurrection in other cities.. That will force Ukraine to split its army the Kharkiv fron will require a far bigger front line than the one they have in Donetsk and lugansk.. Simply Ukraine cannot survive with armed insurgent that Russia can easily arm.. in many other cites.. in a full scale civil war.  

A new front in Kharkiv ,another in Mariupol ,another in Odessa and armed insurgents in Kiev too
will bring down the whole Ukraine Government.. they will flee ,knowing that Russia is officially at war with them.. but in an undeclared war. and that they have no chance to hold retake the cities.   Russia of course will deny any participation ,but they will be forced to bring down Ukraine government if the leadership and United States continues fueling the civil war.

The the assassination of Poroshenko and any leader in parliament will be very very easy..
for Russia ,once Ukraine officially declares war against Russia and start shelling their cities.
No american CIA will save poroshenko , a simple iskander missile will finish him and the CIA thugs defending him.  

Ukraine is an already Bankrupt nation and thinking it have any economy left and comparing it
with Russia is complete ignorance of their real economy conditions or how Americans and Europe are using real money , IMF loans and US congress money to keep Ukraine alive. IF americans give up now with Ukraine, Ukraine declare bankrupt tomorrow. but it will be a total
collapse because they will have no business left . Everyone with something of cash will move to Europe or Russia.

Again you cannot remotely compare Ukraine with Russia economy ,because Russia is standing with its own economy and Ukraine its being carried by Americans and Europeans for a temporary time.. they receive about $10 to $15 billions per year from the IMF and other help.. with salaries of 100% of Ukraine politicians paid by the west ,remove that help and they will need to layoff everyone in Government.  None of that money Ukraine receive will be paid. Americans knows that.. but it doesn't care.. all it wants is to get Ukraine to fight Russia to have
a pretext to pressure Europe to cut all economic relations with them. So claiming Ukraine economy is half of Russia is ludicrous and pure idiocy.  try better with African poorest nations.. like Ethipia. Last i hear the Ukraine army was paid ~$100 dollars a month. But they need to buy their food , so most of the money they get is wasted in their own needs. So effectively even third world nations in Africa are better paid their army ,they at least have money left for family food. The Ukrainian army make money stealing property from people...and in bribes from civilians to allow them leave the country or by selling their weapons to the very same side they fighting.  lol   and for civilians is not better ,you have not see the long lines of people for free food in ukraine.. in Short you are completely wrong. You cannot compare Ukraine economy with any nation other than Third world African countries in the middle of a war. like SUdan or somalia..   Is not as Bad as Lybia because at least they have a central Government and Americans using all their resources to keep the nation in one piece .. but it will be like that once Poroshenko removed by force.

Using GDP for comparisons is perfectly valid when a country stop producing anything locally and ,shut down its local business and becomes mostly an importer of western products including food.

Ukraine's GDP Dropped by 35% Surpassing Zimbabwe, Central African Republic

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150823/1026104480/ukraine-gdp-economy-decrease-world-bank-independence.html

Neutrality wrote:

Khepesh wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.

A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

Which is exactly why it's a shame on them. So many lives perished just so that modern Odessitans could lay down and bend over to the neo-Nazi regime today. It's them "shitting on the corpses" of their grandparents, not us.

Odessa is a Russian city that has suffered de facto occupation due to the assholes Gorbachev and Yeltsin and should be liberated no matter the actions or inactions of the population. That the citizens of Odessa, after having suffered a massacre and intense pressure from SBU, have not risen is not an excuse to insult them and to let them remain occupied. Again, did the cities of the Soviet Union occupied by the nazis not deserve liberation because they did not rise? Should the western border of Russia be on a line from Saint Petersburg, Voronezh, Volgograd because the cities west of that line did not rise?

Khepesh wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

Khepesh wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

No it didn't, nothing happened, the locals bent over and took it up the ass again. No resistance, no protests, nothing.

Oh and there was an electrical fire in a building. The end.

A pity you were not pissing on Odessa when the Trades Union building was blazing as it may have helped put out the flames, but now you piss on their corpses instead.

And the people of Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov, Krasnodar, Kharkov, Donetsk, Odessa, Kiev, Minsk and countless other occupied cities should not have expected liberation by Red Army as they did not rise up against the nazis......

Which is exactly why it's a shame on them. So many lives perished just so that modern Odessitans could lay down and bend over to the neo-Nazi regime today. It's them "shitting on the corpses" of their grandparents, not us.

Odessa is a Russian city that has suffered de facto occupation due to the assholes Gorbachev and Yeltsin and should be liberated no matter the actions or inactions of the population. That the citizens of Odessa, after having suffered a massacre and intense pressure from SBU, have not risen is not an excuse to insult them and to let them remain occupied. Again, did the cities of the Soviet Union occupied by the nazis not deserve liberation because they did not rise? Should the western border of Russia be on a line from Saint Petersburg, Voronezh, Volgograd because the cities west of that line did not rise?

The situation today is entirely different. These cities were captured by a foreign country through military means. War broke out. Today the scenario is different and they could have risen up EASILY against an internal enemy. Ever heard about the will of a single man? Well here the will of many men would have been sufficient, especially after the Trade Union massacre. That moment should have sparked patriotic feelings within every person who considers himself a Russian but they didn't. I'm not insulting the history or the Odessitants here. I'm criticizing their laziness.

/rant over

It's been over a year and not a single UAF, SBU, Azov or some other corpse hit the ground in Odessa. Not one. People were roasted alive and brave people of Odessa did not do jack shit.

UAF and other Nazis still walk the streets like they own the place and they do.

NAF should liberate Novorossia but as for Odessa, why should others bleed for them? Maybe if they made an effort to kill at least one Nazi they could at least pretend to deserve liberation.

Kill just one Nazi, is it too much to ask after more than a year?

And would NAF even be considered liberator by Odessans? Or by any other city outside Novo? Me thinks not...

Neutrality wrote:

The situation today is entirely different. These cities were captured by a foreign country through military means. War broke out. Today the scenario is different and they could have risen up EASILY against an internal enemy. Ever heard about the will of a single man? Well here the will of many men would have been sufficient, especially after the Trade Union massacre. That moment should have sparked patriotic feelings within every person who considers himself a Russian but they didn't. I'm not insulting the history or the Odessitants here. I'm criticizing their laziness.

/rant over

There was no leadership and they cannot be blamed for that. To create an uprising, a pre-existing structure under a strong leader needs to be in place, or able to move to were needed. There was only one Strelkov with a pre-existing structure around him, yet he, or somebody like him, was needed in Odessa, Kharkov and Mariupol. People simply will not rise without a leader, of if they do it is as a temporary mob that is easily dealt with. Any rising needs some planning, yet there was no warning of what was to come, and then it was too late and potential leaders arrested or fled before the inevitable. The fact that many people thought Russia would directly intervene is also a very important factor, and who will take risks if they think there is no need.