Project 955: Borei class SSBN

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....
True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

walle83 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....
True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

Pfftt.... More of this "Chicken Little" bullshit and the sky is falling...

FFS the facts simply don't support your conjecture re the Boreis:

Dolgorukiy: laid down Nov 1996, commissioned Jan 2013 - 17 years (*)
Nevsky: laid down Mar 2004, commissioned Dec 2013 - <10 years
Monomakh: laid down Mar 2006, commissioned Dec 2014 - <8 years
Kynaz Vladimir: laid down Jul 2012, due to be commissioned Dec 2018 - 6.5 years

Another 4 laid down between Jul 2014 and Dec 2016...

(*) much of this delay was due to the cancellation of the R-39M Bark SLBM and the subsequent redesign for the Bulava.

Now, please explain WTF you are talking about? Its crystal clear that production has only accelerated from very poor beginnings (resulting from Yelstins "meltdown" era). Heck, teh first 3 used hull segments from unfinished Akula IIs so if anything the acceleration is understated by these figures....

Its too soon to gauge how the Yasen build program is faring, but I'd be surprised it that didn't speed up as well. Keep in mind that a good portion of the RuN SSN/SSGN fleet is currently in for upgrade, so there is a veritable fuck-ton of work ongoing... so i'm sure the Ruskies are really sorry if progress doesn't meet with your approval... oh the horror...

Big_Gazza wrote:

walle83 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....
True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

Pfftt....  More of this "Chicken Little" bullshit and the sky is falling...  

FFS the facts simply don't support your conjecture re the Boreis:

Dolgorukiy: laid down Nov 1996, commissioned Jan 2013 - 17 years (*)
Nevsky: laid down Mar 2004, commissioned Dec 2013 - <10 years
Monomakh: laid down Mar 2006, commissioned Dec 2014 - <8 years
Kynaz Vladimir: laid down Jul 2012, due to be commissioned Dec 2018 - 6.5 years

Another 4 laid down between Jul 2014 and Dec 2016...

(*) much of this delay was due to the cancellation of the R-39M Bark SLBM and the subsequent redesign for the Bulava.

Now, please explain WTF you are talking about?  Its crystal clear that production has only accelerated from very poor beginnings (resulting from Yelstins "meltdown" era).  Heck, teh first 3 used hull segments from unfinished Akula IIs so if anything the acceleration is understated by these figures....

Its too soon to gauge how the Yasen build program is faring, but I'd be surprised it that didn't speed up as well.  Keep in mind that a good portion of the RuN SSN/SSGN fleet is currently in for upgrade, so there is a veritable fuck-ton of work ongoing...  so i'm sure the Ruskies are really sorry if progress doesn't meet with your approval... oh the horror...

Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period.
Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

walle83 wrote:.....Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period...

Every single Borei and Yasen laid down so far has been completed or is being completed, not a single one has been scraped or abandoned. Delays are always reduced with each next vessel and every completed one has performed to specs.

As for trial period, submarines​ have shortest trial periods of all Russian ships by far.

walle83 wrote:.....
Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

That is because they infinitely more important than everything else combined.

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period...

Every single Borei and Yasen laid down so far has been completed or is being completed, not a single one has been scraped or abandoned. Delays are always reduced with each next vessel and every completed one has performed to specs.

As for trial period, submarines​ have shortest trial periods of all Russian ships by far.

walle83 wrote:.....
Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

That is because they infinitely more important than everything else combined.

Sure, SSBNs and SSNs are by far the highest priority. They combine offensive power with stealth. But, I see that Russia has also significant building plans of big icebreakers. They can prove themselves as a specific sort of capital ships in the future. Strategic value of Sevmorput will grow year by year!

Isos wrote:Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

All the ships that were laid down  were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.

What is this "all the ships"? Which ones are you talking about?

The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn). They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines). The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise. Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.

Because of the engine problems the yards slowed down the production, so they could keep there work force. No lay-offs. So instead of 24/7 they worked 12/5 or even less.

Big_Gazza wrote:

What is this "all the ships"? Which ones are you talking about?

The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn). They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines). The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise. Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.

This kind of problem is quite widespread, see Ford carrier or Zumwalt.

They had to cancel the whole Zumwalt project due to fitting issues.

What are you trying to say.... are you suggesting other countries can have problems building ships and subs?

I don't believe it...

JohninMK wrote:

H I Sutton
‏
H I Sutton Retweeted Dmitry Stefanovich

Important and not altogether unsurprising  #Russia #Submarine news. Perfect timing for my next article!

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Looks like Borei-B SSBN got cancelled after "cost-effectiveness" analysis, 6 new Borei-A planned to be built after 2023 within GPV-2027.

After completion we'll have 14 new SSBNs: 3 Borei and 11 Borei-A.

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5218417 …

So that means fully uniform fleet in the sweet spot of 14 new SSBNs built without mandatory delays that come with usual model re-jiggling

I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet

Shouldn´t Borei-B get 20 missiles?

PapaDragon wrote:

I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet  

Kinda comforting that budget discipline makes fleet more effective lets wait till this mental-wave will reach air-craft carrier fans in admiralty

As for Yasen? yup. +7 extra too

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet  

Kinda comforting that budget discipline makes fleet more effective ..... lets wait till this mental-wave will reach air-craft carrier fans in admiralty ....

As for Yasen? yup. +7 extra too

Best of all they will be getting 3 Boreis more this way, 14 instead of 11 overall. And once they are on the home stretch they will be building Boreis so fast and cheap that they just might get couple of SSGN versions while they are at it, Ohio style.

I am not against switching to Huskies from Yasens but since it will not happen until 2020s they have time to slot couple of extra Yasens into the build roster. No point letting capacities sit idle.

Shouldn´t Borei-B get 20 missiles?

Why?

With 3 Borei Bs and 11 Borei As, why would you need the extra 12 missiles? 16 x 14 = 224 missiles... normal loads are 3-4 warheads per missile... that would be 672 to 896 warheads... if you wanted to you could load up to 8 warheads per missile meaning 1792... which would already violate the new START treaty...

All of them have 12 or 16 tubes... there is no need for 20 tubes... in fact they would be better if they were made slightly smaller and only had 12 tubes each...

GarryB wrote:.....
All of them have 12 or 16 tubes... .

They all have 16 tubes, that seems to be Navy's desired amount

Also in addition to target number of 14 Borei SSBNs there is also Khabarovsk (Poseidon carrier) that is apparently Borei derivative so this also helps with uniforming the fleet

I already mentioned possibility of making SSGN version of Borei to act as land-attack platform like Ohio -class but I also have been thinking if it would be possible to develop Oscar-class replacement from it as well?

I know that Borei does not go as deep as Oscar but still it can go much deeper than potential enemy subs and is more silent than Oscar

And since it reused bow from Akula it has 6 torpedo tubes to go with standard missile tubes so it would make it good platform to quickly develop Oscar replacement

Or they could just unify the platform and use it as both anti-ship SSGN and land attack SSGN depending on armament selected



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https://mobile.twitter.com/CovertShores/status/998805979251822592?p=v

#Russia will build another six BOREI-A ballistic missile #Submarines to modernize its nuclear deterrent. Indication that BOREI is deemed successful after long testing period of its missile complex. BOREI-A cutaway at hisutton.com/Borei-A.html pic.twitter.com/hz2fxn9G67

Point is: without receiving 20 missiles (unnecessary anyway) there is no need for a Borei-B sub-class.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201805221064696617-russia-submarine-launch-missiles/?utm_source=short_direct&utm_medium=short_url&utm_content=h99t&utm_campaign=URL_shortening

4 missiles launched. All hit target. Salvo strike.

Hole wrote:Point is: without receiving 20 missiles (unnecessary anyway) there is no need for a Borei-B sub-class.

It's not just missiles.

It was probably case of getting 10% improved performance at 50% higher price. Not worth it, better to just build more standard ones.

Borei A is an improved version over standard. Like T-90A over legacy T-90 example.

miketheterrible wrote:Borei A is an improved version over standard. Like T-90A over legacy T-90 example.

I know, Borei-A is one getting built, Borei-B got canned

Improvements would mostly be in the electronics and some systems. Can be integrated later.