Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

Belisarius wrote:The maximum range of the AIM-120D is around 160-180 km, while the NEZ tends to correspond to around 1/3 to 1/4 of the missile maximum range. So I doubt the F-35 would shoot the Su-35 at distances greater than 40-60 km.
The average RCS of the F-35 in the frontal aspect is 0.02m2, in comparison the Irbis can detect a target of 0.01m2 at distances of up to 90km. The Su-35 is perfectly capable of detecting the F-35 before it fires its missile.

You are just comparing numbers and air combat isn’t numbers. The f35 will detect the su35 from 200-300km out and most likely will remain undetected itself with its AESA. It will use that advantage to position it self for a high probability BVR shot while keep itself out of the SU35s radar field of view.

And SU35 has to know to look for targets the size of 0.01m2. This about the size of a bird and there is a good chance the radar will filter it as noise. That’s one of the benefits of stealth.

In exercises that Americans do majority of the time f15,f16, and f/a18 never detect the f35 and just get a call on the radio saying they are dead.

limb wrote:

bitcointrader70 wrote:What China got out of the Su-35 purchase, (PLAAF officer interview)

This is a surprisingly candid interview about the Su-35 and it's capabilities vis-a-vis Chinese built Flankers

​

[https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/detail-ihmutuec7501376.d.html?from=wap&fbclid=IwAR0Zimt46\_KUVu7lzkOy6OXCwaKc\_jbkDrSlt\_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g](https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/detail-ihmutuec7501376.d.html?from=wap&fbclid=IwAR0Zimt46_KUVu7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g)

​

Google translate link here: [https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fmil.sina.cn%2Fsd%2F2018-12-09%2Fdetail-ihmutuec7501376.d.html%3Ffrom%3Dwap%26fbclid%3DIwAR0Zimt46\_KUVu7lzkOy6OXCwaKc\_jbkDrSlt\_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g](https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fmil.sina.cn%2Fsd%2F2018-12-09%2Fdetail-ihmutuec7501376.d.html%3Ffrom%3Dwap%26fbclid%3DIwAR0Zimt46_KUVu7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g)

​

Highlights:

\- The SU-35 serves as an excellent benchmark for the Chinese military to gauge the effectiveness of their own development vs international standards.

\- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF

\- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.

\- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.

\- The N035E radar has some interesting features, for example it is capable of detecting a target at extended ranges (350km) if it's only required to scan a small area (about the size of the HUD). This is not particularly useful without AWACs cueing.  

\- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.

\- The IRST is also worse, due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.  

\- The R-77 and R-73 can be used on China's older stock of Russian fighters (Su-27/Su-30MKKs).

\- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles. (Wouldn't the PL-8 and PL-12 be a better comparison?)

\- The Su-35 has an interesting feature, the "БОСЭС" or "Duel" which, if programmed with the capability of the opposing fighter, can automatically track the enemy in real time and recommend optimized decisions. It presents a good look into the Russian understanding of air combat modeling  - and China may seek to do something similar for their 5th generation fights. (Coupled with advances in Chinese AI technology).

\- The 117S engine is very good. It has 13% more dry thrust than the older AL-31F, which is already superior to the domestic WS-10.

\- The Su-35s have some form of datalink capability, and have some level of integration into Chinese air defense networks.

\- The Su-35 is giving China lots of experience with a super maneuverable thrust vectoring aircraft, and is influencing Chinese decisions on where to go with fighter development.  

\- They've learned quite a bit via dissimilar air combat training exercises with the Su-35.

\- "the 117S engine is also the key subsystem for the first time after the introduction of the Su-35" - I think this means that the engine is the primary reason the Su-35 was bought.

\- The officer's dream heavy 4.5th generation fighter would be a J-16 with 117S engines.


A pretty honest interview about su35 from a Chinese insider.

Thinking that su35 can take on an f35 is some deluded thinking from people on this forum. F35 has a 360 degree DAS. Better IIR missiles in WVR range. Better long range missiles in AMRAAM a radar with much better performance. AESA is always better than PESA. A better ECM package. And stealth.

Look first see first kill first.  Flankers EO isn’t as good as the f35s Garry and i seriously doubt the flanker has the necessary sensor fusion to reliably Q off AWACS/ground based radars to launch R77 and give mid course corrections with its own radar that won’t be able to see the F35 from the reasonable distance. Russian entire air defence doctrine is based on its fighters avoiding massive air battles with western 4.5 and 5th gen jets for a reason. They will rely a lot on artillery, long range missiles, and their ground based air defenses to get the job done.

What evidence is there that russians are lagging behind in IRST systems, given that it was Russians who pioneered using IRSTs?  AFAIK the Su-35's IRST range is classified, but the Su-30's  last gen IRST front detection range is indeed a pathetic 30-35km.

The claim that the NO35 only has a 400km range in narrow scan is intrguing but what would be the point of it if it could only detect aircraft in narrow scan?

The evidence is that Chinese guy i quoted and you said yourself that the IRST on the su30 was bad and during the Cold War their IRST for the flankers and mig29s and mig23 was so bad it was useless and the Americans laughed at it when they tested East German equipment. You are claiming a huge generational leap of performance in the su35.

bitcointrader70 wrote:it carries the advanced aimx9 which has a much better IIR seeker than r37

Last time I checked the "r37" had no IIR seeker - so yeah the "aimx9" is just sooo much better

Mir wrote:

bitcointrader70 wrote:it carries the advanced aimx9 which has a much better IIR seeker than r37

Last time I checked the "r37" had no IIR seeker - so yeah the "aimx9" is just sooo much better

I got my numbers switched r73 is what I’m talking about. The seeker is inferior to the western one.

But I can see now you aren’t arguing in good faith at all.

bitcointrader70 wrote:
I got my numbers switched r73 is what I’m talking about. The seeker is inferior to the western one.

The latest R-74M is just sssoooo much better - shall we continue this drivel? NO!

Mir wrote:

bitcointrader70 wrote:
I got my numbers switched r73 is what I’m talking about. The seeker is inferior to the western one.

The latest R-74M is just sssoooo much better - shall we continue this drivel? NO!

And how many of those does Russia have ready for all its su35s and su30s in case of war? My guess majority of the planes will still be carrying r73.

It still doesn’t give Russia and kind of serious advantage over the f35 in WVR. Both planes have a high change of killing each other in a dogfight. But f35 has the look first and BVR advantage. As well as the networking and sensor fusion.

That is pure speculation. I have heard this too and there is never a source attached. Now the r33 did have less sophisticated radars than the american phoenix but the radar power and scanning speed (with the same semi active/active modes) of the r37m as well as its ability to take greater gforces proves that your claims are wrong.

Also you have been giving out the bantz as good as you've been getting dont get sanctimonious

Those exercises mean nothing, in practical combat terms , F35 was accompanied by Su30 over the baltic seas and syria.

There is no look first shoot first, that is why Israel continually uses f16 and f15 over Lebanon they will not risk F35.

It's also why Turkey chose S400 over f35.

Those exercises are fake news

In real world practical terms, F35 would never see combat

We also saw in Jammu and Kashmir how IAF and PAF ended in a WVR scenario

Amraam was fired at close range, and BVR shot at SU30 ended as we know all BVR engagements end, with the missile flying into empty air.

In that scenario, SU30 hits afterburner and chases enemy down exactly as intended and hits with R27 or R73.

F16 and F15 have better survivability then f35 , that is why they go back to F15SM a copy of SU30 and SU35 advanced technologies. 4th gen were not surpassed by 5th gen in many operational capacities, and the key elements, combat range, speed, maneuverability, and weapons diversity are well taken into account and will be sought after by USAF.

Meanwhile Russia already goes to 120 SU35 and upgrades Su30SM2.

This proves American exercises are not held in real war scenario similar to sea breeze, Defender europe, and other American exercises they are mostly for PR and not for a real conflict.

In real terms the SU35 is superior to F35 and F22 in terms of range, weapons payload, supermaneuverability, which has served VKS in practical terms time and again in interceptions over baltic seas and Syria.

Also in diversity of weapons systems, and EW, khbibiny had disabled the USS donald cook from afar, while buzzed by SU24.

So we have not seen the real use of such jets like f35 or f22 which remain PR stunts and graft operations for corporate aviation.

Yeah that spat between Pakistan and India and most recently nagorno-karabakh conflict show that the west is very serious about propaganda defending western military kit from bad press, and the exact opposite for russian kit. The f16 fighters spammed their missiles from within their own borders. There was not much the indian pilots could do as far as the su30 fighters were concerned without risking breakout of war.

Nagorno-karabakh was one of the most insidious propaganda battles I have ever witnessed. It is not at all the way turks have painted events to be. Essentially the tr2 is a forpost r class drone stuffed with western equipment. Much 9f the most dangerous conflicts had Azerbaijan using israeli weaponry against rehashed cold war era air defense. The sheer fact that more than two drones and harops against a parked torm2 speaks volumes.

TMA1 wrote:Yeah that spat between Pakistan and India and most recently nagorno-karabakh conflict show that the west is very serious about propaganda defending western military kit from bad press, and the exact opposite for russian kit. The f16 fighters spammed their missiles from within their own borders. There was not much the indian pilots could do as far as the su30 fighters were concerned without risking breakout of war.

Nagorno-karabakh was one of the most insidious propaganda battles I have ever witnessed. It is not at all the way turks have painted events to be. Essentially the tr2 is a forpost r class drone stuffed with western equipment. Much 9f the most dangerous conflicts had Azerbaijan using israeli weaponry against rehashed cold war era air defense. The sheer fact that more than two drones and harops against a parked torm2 speaks volumes.

Pakistani had the advantage since they were around 12 f-16 against 2 su-30 and 1 mig-21. Su-30 were monitoring them on radar keeping safe distance. If they went for one f-16 the others would have went around and fired missiles.

Same way when indians went to bomb in Pakistan they were a big group and pakistani sent no fighter.

Even 1 vs 2 is dangerous let alone if it is more.

There doesn't seem to be any concrete analysis in the last few pages instead of "F-35 bad" and "Su-35 bad" or "China bad".

There seems to be 0 technical info if the Su-35's IRST is better than french or chinese IRSTs. Does anyone know if the SU-35's IRST has higher range than the Su-30's and rafale's IRST? Is it physically possible that the SU-35's IRST can detect the f-35 in front aspect more than 50km away?

Also whats an IIR seeker and why did the Russian's allegedly choose not to put one on the R-74?

Unfortunately for Darrell Patrick "Dale" Zelko, that didn't happen in 1999.

Non sequitur. The F-117 had its bombay doors open and the F-117 wasn't continuously tracked further than 100km away. This does bring the question how much do moisture droplets physically increase RCS in Xband.

bitcointrader70 wrote:You are just comparing numbers and air combat isn’t numbers. The f35 will detect the su35 from 200-300km out and most likely will remain undetected itself with its AESA. It will use that advantage to position it self for a high probability BVR shot while keep itself out of the SU35s radar field of view.

Several years ago, Northrop Grumman published a video, on its youtube channel, where the F-35 radar shows itself capable of detecting targets at distances of up to 160km, so I doubt the Su-35 will be detected at distances of 200-300km, and a high probability kill BVR shot would then occur inside the NEZ, and as I said earlier the Su-35 can detect the F-35 before it enters the NEZ from the AIM-120D.

bitcointrader70 wrote:And SU35 has to know to look for targets the size of 0.01m2. This about the size of a bird and there is a good chance the radar will filter it as noise. That’s one of the benefits of stealth.

Unfortunately for Darrell Patrick "Dale" Zelko, that didn't happen in 1999.

bitcointrader70 wrote:

Mir wrote:It is funny that back in 2008 Rand Corporation found that the Su-35 could shoot down 2.4 F-35s for every Su-35 lost. Rand Corporation is an American nonprofit global policy think tank created in 1948 by Douglas Aircraft Company to offer research and analysis to the United States Armed Forces. It is mostly financed by the U.S. government.

Naturally the Pentagon/USAF refuted all these claims and in turn claimed that the F-35 Wunderwaffe is 400% more effective in air-to-air combat than any other aircraft other than the F-22 (naturally!).

"The classical air combat starts at high speed, but if you miss on the first shot—and the probability is there because there are maneuvers to avoid missiles—the combat will be more prolonged. After maneuvering, the aircraft will be at a lower speed, but both aircraft may be in a position where they cannot shoot. But supermaneuverability allows an aircraft to turn within three seconds and take another shot."
— Sergey Bogdan, Sukhoi chief test pilot

Now this very well known fact could make the Rand Corporation's outlook even worse than they actually thought!

I don’t know what parameters this study uses. I’m pretty much every single exercise held by the Americans the f35 slaughters all 4th gen fighters in BVR and its odds at WVR aren’t bad either because it carries the advanced aimx9 which has a much better IIR seeker than r37

1. It is easy to attack my Serbia, which before the NATO aggression was under severe sanctions or from 1991 to 1999. Eight years of severe sanctions and only 16 MiG-29 planes. It is easy to attack a country whose planes (like the Serbian MiG-29) already in 1999 flew with exhausted resources and in many cases without functional radar.
2. It is quite easy when you attack Serbia, which does not have AWACS planes and a global GPS surveillance system, because then you can easily direct your planes (like F-15 and F-16) to Serbian MiG-29 planes with the help of the aforementioned AWACS and GPS.
3. It is easy to cowardly strike Serbia with strategic bombers (B-2, B-1, B-52), because Serbia had only export variants of the KuB-M2 system, as well as stationary S-125 systems. It is clear as day that Serbia also did not have sophisticated electronic warfare systems - NOTHING.
4. Serbia did not have any means to strike at the ships of the American Navy. It is easy to strike with cruise missiles from submarines, destroyers and crusiers, on a country that does not even have a modern air defense, which has planes whose resources have expired and in some cases without functional radar, but here it is - Serbia lasted 78 days in that battle.
5. And thats exactly what the Americans do because for 30 years - the United States use the exactly same tactics against every opponent and and attacks im first with cruise missiles ! It is understood that the opponent has been under severe sanctions for years and that he does not have the military capabilities with which he can inflict great damage on the aggressor - the American army and USN. And you write fairy tales about F-35 planes?
6. Stop writing to me about a country that was incapable of defeating one Japan, because the American estimate was that there would be war on land against the Japanese, as well as that they would lose at least over a million soldiers. It was easier to drop two atomic bombs.

*** CONCLUSION; Neither are the people of the West ready for war against Russia (or China), nor is that F-35 what Americans rely on FIRST PLACE when striking any adversary. First comes the impact of cruise missiles, and when the radars and air defense systems are destroyed, then follows the impact of aviation. Now go back to the beginning and read everything again, you taurus, because then you will see what Serbia (or Iraq) did not have, while Russia (or China) has. Taurus, you write about that F-35 plane as if it was made by God himself and as if there is no other weapon system that is far more destructive than the F-35.

I don’t know what parameters this study uses. I’m pretty much every single exercise held by the Americans the f35 slaughters all 4th gen fighters in BVR and its odds at WVR aren’t bad either because it carries the advanced aimx9 which has a much better IIR seeker than r37

Yeah, but western fighters are not intended or designed to fight stealth aircraft, which has been a bit of a focus for Russian fighters from most of the last 40 odd years...

Russian fighters also operate within an IADS that is incomparably better than the HATO system, which is air based and centred around AWACS platforms that would be terribly vulnerable.

The AIM-9X was described as a Hittile by its makers but what has its actual performance in combat been... it missed a Syrian Su-22 recently...

I assume you meant R-73 and not R-37, but kinematically the thrust vectoring engine of the R-73 makes it a rather more capable missile while the seeker is not an imaging seeker it still seems to be rather good.

The f35 will detect the su35 from 200-300km out and most likely will remain undetected itself with its AESA. It will use that advantage to position it self for a high probability BVR shot while keep itself out of the SU35s radar field of view.

To detect the Su-35 at any range it would have to use its radar which gives away its own location and presence. The L band AESA radar on the wings of the Su-35 should detect the F-35 at extended ranges...

And SU35 has to know to look for targets the size of 0.01m2. This about the size of a bird and there is a good chance the radar will filter it as noise. That’s one of the benefits of stealth.

You do know the filters used on radars are not random, and with there being few birds at 10,000m flying at 800km per hour most Russian radars rather than dismissing it as noise will actually highlight it as something worth investigating...

In exercises that Americans do majority of the time f15,f16, and f/a18 never detect the f35 and just get a call on the radio saying they are dead.

Sounds like they will be in the shit when they face Su-57s then.

Conversely the IADS the Russian planes operate within as well as their new fighter aircraft are all equipped to look for and engage stealth threats, and their self defence equipment optimised to deal with US missiles and radar.

The evidence is that Chinese guy i quoted and you said yourself that the IRST on the su30 was bad and during the Cold War their IRST for the flankers and mig29s and mig23 was so bad it was useless and the Americans laughed at it when they tested East German equipment. You are claiming a huge generational leap of performance in the su35.

The Chinese guy likely had experience with the export version of the IRST on the Su-30, just like the German model MiG-29 had an IRST inferior to the IRST on the MiG-23 in Soviet service of the time... I would therefore suggest that the IRST used on current fighters could easily be described as being a generational leap... possibly two.

And how many of those does Russia have ready for all its su35s and su30s in case of war? My guess majority of the planes will still be carrying r73.

That is fine... Su-22 exported aircraft have flares that defeat AIM-9X... we have seen the evidence... the flares on the German MiG-29s proved very effective against the Sidewinders of that period too... so not a great surprise... how well will western defence measures perform against R-73s... a bit of an unknown really.

It still doesn’t give Russia and kind of serious advantage over the f35 in WVR.

The fact that the F-35 gets beaten in WVR combat by western aircraft suggests it would struggle against Russian planes.

All Russian planes have helmet mounted sights and IRSTs and both radar and IR guided BVR missiles as well as IR WVR missiles suggests they would kick their arses.

If the F-35 was all that why are they spending 150 million per plane on new production F-15s?

Both planes have a high change of killing each other in a dogfight. But f35 has the look first and BVR advantage.

Not even close to being proven.

As well as the networking and sensor fusion.

The Russian IADS network is rather more comprehensive and complete than the US one, and Soviet planes had IRST, Radar, and Helmet mounted cueing systems for the last 40 years.

Now the r33 did have less sophisticated radars than the american phoenix but the radar power and scanning speed (with the same semi active/active modes) of the r37m as well as its ability to take greater gforces proves that your claims are wrong.

The ZASLON PESA was constantly underestimated in the west... till they introduced AESA radar into widespread use and then electronically scanned radar in fighters was everything... funny how that worked.

Those exercises are fake news

It is very easy to set the parameters of an exercise to ensure a specific result is achieved every time, which makes them as you say... fake news.

Also whats an IIR seeker and why did the Russian's allegedly choose not to put one on the R-74?

An IIR seeker is a thermal imager. You get a photo or video like image of the target instead of a heat pattern signal.

On paper it is supposed to render flares useless so the only defence would be DIRCMS... laser jammers... but in the real world it failed miserably against a very old generation aircraft... Su-22 of the Syrian air force.

The F-117 had its bombay doors open and the F-117 wasn't continuously tracked further than 100km away

The bomb bay doors on the F-117 open and close very quickly and it does not spend a lot of time with the doors open so the idea that the F-117 had its bomb bay doors open long enough for a ground based radar to detect it and point a missile at it... wait for it to get within missile range and then fire on it and for the missile to lock and track and fly on up and hit the aircraft is just absurd.... B17s didn't leave their bomb bay doors open that long.

It is easy to attack my Serbia, which before the NATO aggression was under severe sanctions or from 1991 to 1999.

There was little chance Serbia could defeat all of HATO, and it is to your credit that you made them look like fools and showed that using the equipment you had skillfully that a massacre by the worlds last superpower is not the only possible outcome of conflict with them.

Some people claim it was a fluke... just pure luck... that you were firing SAMs like Grad rockets and one luckily connected, but even just thinking about it for a few moments... if the plane really was invisible then there would be zero chance of a hit... imagine trying to get a blind man to shoot a bus without knowing the bus route... the bus timetable... or the current time... the odds of a hit on a bus would be absurd.

Taurus, you write about that F-35 plane as if it was made by God himself and as if there is no other weapon system that is far more destructive than the F-35.

A little ironic you say that... I would love to see every HATO member operating dozens or hundreds of F-35s.... that alone would bankrupt the block and mean there is little money for anything else...

Also whats an IIR seeker and why did the Russian's allegedly choose not to put one on the R-74?

The Morfei missile, 9M100, which is the small short range IIR guided missile in the land based S-350 and at sea on the Redut SAM system (which might be ARH to overcome mist and fog and high moisture conditions common at sea) will introduce an imaging seeker.

You see the problem with existing IR missiles in the Russian inventory is that it needs a lock before it can be launched. This means for aircraft with internal weapon bays like Su-57 you would need to open the weapon bay and extend the missile out of the weapon bay to allow its seeker to view the target before it could be launched... not very stealthy...

The new missile has a two way datalink and an IIR seeker that sees the target.

The idea for the missile is that it will have a 3D target library in its memory of various targets, so when it detects a target it can compare the IR view with its 3D images in its database and identify it target for itself enroute to the target...

So flying along in your Su-57 or PAK DA and you detect a target through your version of DAS... the location of the target is sent to the missile and an IR image likely sent too so the missile is thrown out of the weapon bay and it lights up its rocket motor and flys in autopilot towards the location it expects to see this target... unlike a radar homing missile it turns on its seeker immediately because it is passive and wont give away its location.

As it flys towards the location of the target as given at launch it can transmit what it can see back to the launch aircraft and the launch aircraft can select targets or change targets if the circumstances require it, but most of the time the missile will head towards the incoming target... find it, get a lock and engage it.

Swarm attacks of small drones carrying 1kg explosives will make planes pretty useless.

They already have such technology. They have optical image processing to spot automatically planes (f-35 is easy to spot on an airgield). And such drones can act alone.

Send a full truck 20km from the base and they will destroy anything on that airport.

Last week 3 drones of 2m went over sweedish nuclear plants and they couldn't do anything against them...

The hardest part is to smuggle them in enemy country which would be done during peace time...

And Sukhoi's engineer can even reprogram civilian drones and use them this way. Then you just send a civilian guy to buy them in the country and program them and let them fly...

Nato has no AD agaibst such things neither would they detect them. Release also birds in the same time and radars won't be able to differentiate the drones

I called him a bull, because he is a bull. He attacked the F-35 plane as if it were a red scarf..
POLITICS; Every story in the West starts with "we are superior". Then they make sure to add that Russians live in severe anarchy, are poorly educated, have a problem of national minorities, criminals + bears and vodka.
Imagine a situation where the NATO pact is in Ukraine and Finland and where Russia is ahead of it. It is clear what would happen, they would be accused again of putting pressure on Armenia, Kazakhstan, but this time they would also mention national minorities in Russia. The policy of sanctions is not directed against Putin and the Russian authorities, as they like to say in the West, but is directed against the Russian people. Of course, through sanctions, the West wants to turn the Russian people against their own government, as they did against other countries that have been under long-term sanctions.

"SUPERIORITY"; And the story of the F-35 is American nonsense, because in the past 30+ years, the Americans first fired cruise missiles at every opponent (cruisers, destroyers, LA-class submarines, strategic bombers), and only after that will be included the USAF and aircraft carriers. That is why every pro-NATO fanatic is bothered when next is mentioned; Russian hypersonic and supersonic anti-ship missiles, air defense systems, EW systems, GLONASS global surveillance, Tu-160 and MiG-31, nuclear weapons. and WHY is that so ?
Because no opponent of the United States or the NATO pact had the above-mentioned systems, so the worn-out story of how NATO planes are superior is always included. People in the West are silk and have become accustomed to a fairly comfortable life, so I doubt very much that they are ready to lose all that in the conflict with Russia.
When the West writes about the US army, it is like writing about Sparta, although the fact is that the US did not defeat Japan with honor. Yes, they destroyed their navy and air force, but they did not get Japan on land. And then, with a disgusting decision, they dropped two atomic bombs because they had NO army or readiness to bear the huge number of American soldiers killed, which would have been inevitable if they had decided to invade Japan.
The Russians set out on the path of RECIPROCITY. Yes, it is cheaper to make dozens or hundreds of Kinzhal and Zircon missiles than to produce hundreds and hundreds of new fighter jets.
A pro-Western journalist told a military analyst the following in a TV show in Serbia; "Are you saying the West hates Russia?" The analyst calmly said the following to the journalist; "Yes, that's all they can and have been doing for centuries - to hate Russia and nothing else."

The west is faced with an incredibly capable IADS on Russian territory that has sensors that look out thousands of kms from its borders, and layers of missiles and aircraft defending that territory... the solution of high flying threat died with Francis Powers and his U-2, and speed in terms of manned aircraft like the SR-71 wasn't going to cut it either so they thought if they aren't seen they could get through so they went for stealth... well lots of time and money and technology and the plans for B-52s and B-2s shifted to low altitude penetration... which was not good for the airframe life of either aircraft... the advantage of stealth is being able to to fly high and therefore fly relatively fast and efficiently in the thin cold air.... but anti stealth systems means flying low is again a necessity, and because they can't manage hypersonic speeds yet their next focus is swarms.

When a defence is too strong to be overwhelmed by a conventional attack... ramp it up and instead of dozens of attackers... send thousands...

Their core problem is that Russia has an excellent air defence network and are developing smaller and cheaper ways of dealing with drones.... and also the drones themselves.

Russia will be working on EMP bombs and weapons to deal with swarms, but the core of the problem is that a drone needs some intelligence to be useful... it needs to be able to find a target and identify it and get to it on its own.... the defender just needs to stop it... a smoke screen or GPS jammer or even just counter drones that attack aerial drones with a net could be used against them... there likely wont just be one solution but a range of different solutions that can be used in combinations depending on the situation.

Many bases will be near populated areas so blazing away with a machine gun might end up shooting up the neighbourhood and being more destructive than the drone. A shotgun would be more useful but its limited effective range means you would need to be positioned next to the actual target and be very alert...


Another factor of course is that when Russia develops counter drones they will have a drone force that could be used for a swarm attack on the west whose defences are woeful in comparison in every area... Russia could launch a combined attack with medium and high flying stealth drones, low flying cruise missiles, hypersonic manouvering weapons to take down the few air defence sites they have as well as comms centres and HQs...

They could even have drones that are launched to get HATO to sent interceptor fighters to deal with... the drones could be armed to defend themselves and shoot down some of the interceptors...

Unfortunately even the su57 won’t be enough to overcome the Americans air superiority. As I’ve done more research and reading it seems that the Russian fighter jet industry is in big trouble and lacking lots of technical expertise and money for development. There is a word in Russian “лох” it means goofball. And that’s what they have been doing for the last 30 years is goofing off in the air superiority category. Here is a write up by an well versed westerner. Su35 has absolutely zero chance against the f35.

Sukhoi’s own patent claims Su-57 having a design RCS between 0.1 and 1 m2.

For a known aircraft [Su-27], the EPR value is about 10–15 m 2.

The technical result, the achievement of which the invention is directed, is to reduce the magnitude of the aircraft radar visibility to an average value of the order of 0.1 – 1 m 2 .

That’s comparable to a clean Super Hornet and it shouldn’t be a surprise when Su-57 follows many of the same RCS-reduction measures such as using radar blockers to hide the engine face instead of an actual serpentine duct.

It’s not just Su-57 being less stealthy than F-35 (-40 dBsm) – it has a 1,000 times bigger RCS. Since detection range is proportional to the 4th root of RCS, a 1,000 times bigger RCS equates to 5.6 times greater detection range. And this is after giving Su-57 every benefit of doubt, the F-35’s RCS is very likely closer to -50 dB.

The F-35 will be enjoying almost 6 times greater detection range against Su-57. The difference is so huge that Su-57 will be hopelessly outclassed. We see this time and again in Red Flags and Northern Edge with F-35 having 28–1 kill ratio against modern 4th gen. aircraft backed by AWACS and SAMs. The enormous difference in detection range from Stealth is the primary factor for such a lopsided kill ratio.

It doesn’t matter how capable radar or EW suite you have, they simply can’t compensate the enormous difference in detection range from a VLO airframe. You can have amazing performance at airshows but without Stealth you’re not gonna be in a fight against 5th gen. aircraft.

And this is ignoring the infancy of Su-57 program and consistent delay in the production/IOC since last 4 years or the fact Su-57’s avionics suite is not remotely comparable to that of F-35. The F-35 has a bigger and much more capable radar and orders of magnitude more powerful EW suite giving vastly superior Situational Awareness.

Where F-35’s DAS make it the only Fighter to fully operate in the IR spectrum, Su-57 can’t even use its forward-hemisphere IRST without further ruining its RCS. The IRST is turned backwards in Su-57 because its a sphere, the worst shape in terms of RCS that uniformly reflects in all direction.

Despite all the problems with Su-57 program including lack of existence or international interest, the fundamental design is so far behind F-35 in terms of both Stealth and Situational Awareness – two key aspects of a 5th gen. aircraft. The Su-57’s design is closer to that of modern 4th gen. than it is to either F-22 or F-35.

Yet the Su-57 is portrayed as an equal counterpart to F-22 and F-35 with people talking about its kinematic performance or side-arrays without even understanding their actual purpose, let alone the impact on EMCON. How great are the Directed IRCMs (Laser turrets) while turning a blind eye to the fact Su-57 use a UV based Missile Warning System – making Su-57 significantly vulnerable to BVR missiles. 10 years since first flight and there’s no indication of K-77M or K-74M anywhere close to being operational, forcing Su-57 to fly with R-77 & R-74 externally (as they won’t fit inside).

Imagine the kind of articles you’d see if F-35 didn’t have an operational missile that could fit internally. The Su-57 gets away with all the shortcomings using propaganda and fantasies, the likes of non-existent L band radar.

The Su-57 is nowhere near F-35 for similar reasons as to why F-18 Super Hornets are nowhere near F-35. The gap in Stealth and ultimately Situational Awareness is just overwhelming.

Rcs is measured differently from one country to another. Russia for exemple use real radars. US take their data from their ass.

When Russians say su-57 has a rcs of 0.1-1m2 they also say f-22 has a frontal 0.3m2 because they actual did some engineering work to get those values. They made 1:1 models of all NATO fighter and measured it by into account ram coating. US say su-57 has a rcs of 1m2 because some fanboy on a forum said so with background in any relevent field.

US are already stafting to think about adding a IRST ball on the f-22 because russian and chinese stealth is shitty good enough. They will sacrifice their own stealth to be avle to compete with enemy stealth... it says a lot.

Isos wrote:Rcs is measured differently from one country to another. Russia for exemple use real radars. US take their data from their ass.

When Russians say su-57 has a rcs of 0.1-1m2 they also say f-22 has a frontal 0.3m2 because they actual did some engineering work to get those values. They made 1:1 models of all NATO fighter and measured it by into account  ram coating. US say su-57 has a rcs of 1m2 because some fanboy on a forum said so with background in any relevent field.

US are already stafting to think about adding a IRST ball on the f-22 because russian and chinese stealth is shitty good enough. They will sacrifice their own stealth to be avle to compete with enemy stealth... it says a lot.

Doubt. F22 and f35 are essentially undefeated in exercises vs f15/f16/fa18/raphael/typhoon.

There is a reason everyone is trying to make stealth planes now. China is obsessed with stealth and trying to pump them out like crazy.

Podlodka77 wrote:I called him a bull, because he is a bull. He attacked the F-35 plane as if it were a red scarf..
POLITICS; Every story in the West starts with "we are superior". Then they make sure to add that Russians live in severe anarchy, are poorly educated, have a problem of national minorities, criminals + bears and vodka.
Imagine a situation where the NATO pact is in Ukraine and Finland and where Russia is ahead of it. It is clear what would happen, they would be accused again of putting pressure on Armenia, Kazakhstan, but this time they would also mention national minorities in Russia. The policy of sanctions is not directed against Putin and the Russian authorities, as they like to say in the West, but is directed against the Russian people. Of course, through sanctions, the West wants to turn the Russian people against their own government, as they did against other countries that have been under long-term sanctions.

"SUPERIORITY"; And the story of the F-35 is American nonsense, because in the past 30+ years, the Americans first fired cruise missiles at every opponent (cruisers, destroyers, LA-class submarines, strategic bombers), and only after that will be included the USAF and aircraft carriers. That is why every pro-NATO fanatic is bothered when next is mentioned; Russian hypersonic and supersonic anti-ship missiles, air defense systems, EW systems, GLONASS global surveillance, Tu-160 and MiG-31, nuclear weapons. and WHY is that so ?
Because no opponent of the United States or the NATO pact had the above-mentioned systems, so the worn-out story of how NATO planes are superior is always included. People in the West are silk and have become accustomed to a fairly comfortable life, so I doubt very much that they are ready to lose all that in the conflict with Russia.
When the West writes about the US army, it is like writing about Sparta, although the fact is that the US did not defeat Japan with honor. Yes, they destroyed their navy and air force, but they did not get Japan on land. And then, with a disgusting decision, they dropped two atomic bombs because they had NO army or readiness to bear the huge number of American soldiers killed, which would have been inevitable if they had decided to invade Japan.
The Russians set out on the path of RECIPROCITY. Yes, it is cheaper to make dozens or hundreds of Kinzhal and Zircon missiles than to produce hundreds and hundreds of new fighter jets.
A pro-Western journalist told a military analyst the following in a TV show in Serbia; "Are you saying the West hates Russia?" The analyst calmly said the following to the journalist; "Yes, that's all they can and have been doing for centuries - to hate Russia and nothing else."

I’m sorry they bombed your country. But you are kind of a goodball. The Americans don’t use sanctions or fire barrages of cruise missiles because their military is weaker. They do this because they fight with every single advantage. Even if it’s 100% confirmed that the f35 can slaughter every single flanker and felon jet Russia has Americans would still do sanctions and fire missiles first to weaken their opponent. You completely misunderstand their tactics and their strategy. They fight to win in these kind of wars.

Morals have very little to with it as well. They nuked Japan because fighting a ground war against religious fanatics was pointless and a waste of time. Also the Japanese weren’t saints. All of the dirty shit they did to POWs and raping all those Korean and Chinese women. Don’t get me started. Morals are irrelevant. America nuked them because it was convenient for them and no one could stop them.


Their BVR and air superiority tactics are well proven. Especially when the Israelis put a bunch of Soviet instructor pilots in the dirt during the Arab wars with Egypt.

All of those responses with hypersonic missiles and zircons and Khinzals. Those are strategic weapons. By even bringing them into discussion you are acknowledging the inferiors of the Russian airforce to the Americans and their doctrine.

China and Russia are into hypersonic and drones. Stealth is barely developed. Europeans are also bypassing massive investements in stealth and focus and datalinked stuff.

Exercices show nothing. Specially US ones where you see a new fighters vs older fighters that air force would love to replace with new ones. Totally biased results.

Real threat of US jets is the numbers. But Russia and China have enough missiles to make it not a threat. That's why they are begging for allies against them. Thry can't win a war vs Russia or China alone.