Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

Big_Gazza wrote:FFS, yes the delays are a disappointment, but you know full well that this is a completely new design with new sensors & weapons & battle management systems, so why piss and moan about it?  Who gives a flying fuck?  The ship will be accepted when all bugs are worked out,  system integration is in full compliance to spec, and the Navy is FULLY satisfied.   This is a warship, not a shitcan F-35.  Engine supply issues mean they have plenty of time to get her correct and not repeat the installation issues with Kasatanov (eg dodgy radar cabling), so they are doing it right.  Shake her until she fails, then fix her and do it again.  Rinse & repeat until she's sorted, then apply teh lessons to her sisters.

That's the way to build a warship.  Not by pushing them out to satisfy a bureaucrats schedule and then having to go back and fix the problems on a number of units once they are eventually solved.  Just because the USAF/USN is going to have to rebuild a load of pre-serial F-35s doesn't mean the RuN wants to follow the same 'exceptional" path with the 22350s.

Bureaucracy and bad management caused these delays. Same as in the F-35 but on a much smaller scale.
In both cases the platforms are super capable and promising. In practice, they're very very late and expensive.

1 frigate --> 11 years to induct.
<insert slow clapping>

There are 2 ways to conduct see trials.

1st is rubber-stamping PR show that allows any barley floating junker to enter service. Case in point Zumwalt  trials.

2nd is genuine trials to verify built ship is actually complaint to contracted specifications. Case in point Gorshkov trials.

Which country practices which of those two methods is easily discernible by rejection and delay rate during trials. Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

On  another hand fact that in US and its satellites it is practically unheard of that military ship gets delayed or rejected during trials indicates more what kind of "trials" they actually practice, then it indicates absence or presence of theatrical issues, or compliance to contractual specifications.

The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov

As someone on Balancer put it 'The final final final final phase of tests'
I'll believe it when I see a St George cross flying.

Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.

hoom wrote:On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.

Really? In what respect?  Don't tell me - a sandwich toaster has broke an element, and the toilet next to the engine control room doesn't flush.....

Yeah sure, compared to the LCSs being unable to travel under their own power, or the Zumwalts not having any advanced ammo for their main cannons, I'd call any issues with Severodvinsk and 20380s to be par for the course in any warship.

KiloGolf wrote:1 frigate --> 11 years to induct.
<insert slow clapping>

Its not one frigate, its the first completely new series of major Russian surface combatants since the Sovremennys and Udaloys started in the late 70s (I'm ignoring the 11540s as a "false start").  All weapons and systems are new and previously untested, and their production required a complete reboot of industries long neglected and underfunded since 1991.  22350s are a generation ahead of 11356s. Systems integration and testing is complex and commissioning punchlists will run into thousands of items.  WTF do you not understand about that?

Yeah, its taken longer than expected.  So fucking what?  Its not like there are a dozen on the slipways being held up because of redesign work resulting from lead ship technical problems.  Ukrop have caused a 4-5 year delay while replacement engines are developed, so Severnaya don't really have any pressing schedule concerns.  The world won't end if the RuN doesn't get a single frigate in the next six months, so might as well get her right...

Getting a little sick of your endless NATOstani agitprop BS.

Big_Gazza wrote:22350s are a generation ahead of 11356s. Systems integration and testing is complex and commissioning punchlists will run into thousands of items.  WTF do you not understand about that?

I understand that they focused on the wrong ship and wrecked their Navy in their process. 11356s could have been inducted since the mid 00s if the political will was there. By now they'd have over a dozen of them, possibly more, not just 3 Grigs and 1 Gorshkov in 2018.

Really? In what respect?

Severodvinsk was experimental service for several years before being announced combat ready, 20380 has Redut not properly functional.
Just pointing out Russia hasn't fully avoided the 'put it in service & pretend it actually works' thing either.

hoom wrote:Severodvinsk was experimental service for several years before being announced combat ready, 20380 has Redut not properly functional.
Just pointing out Russia hasn't fully avoided the 'put it in service & pretend it actually works' thing either.

Severodvinsk is the lead unit of a class conceived back in Soviet times and construction schedule was delayed for over a decade due to the 90s meltdown....  its been extensively redesigned since, and is altogether a different boat to that originally envisioned.  Saying its "experimental" is incorrect however.  Its a credit to the Russians that they persevered and didn't simply scrap her, and that she handed over 2 years after start of sea trials. BTW the delay in declaring her "combat ready" was more about crew training than issues with the boat or systems. Crews take a year or two to get fully up to speed on a new design boat, and the Severodvinsk is at least a generation ahead of the Akulas.

Problems with 20380 Redut is AFAIK only related to long range (120km) version of the missile 9M96E2.  The shorter range (40km) variant works fine, and I suspect it became the plan to fit the active ships with those and rollout the 9M96E2s when ready.  That's a perfectly defendable strategy in my book.

What's up with Gorshkov?! They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?

PapaDragon wrote:

littlerabbit wrote:What's up with Gorshkov?!  They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?  

Forget commissioning, from what they said the other day they don't even plan to order any additional ones before at least 2021.

Jesus... I don't get Russian Navy, at all.

littlerabbit wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

littlerabbit wrote:What's up with Gorshkov?!  They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?  

Forget commissioning, from what they said the other day they don't even plan to order any additional ones before at least 2021.

Jesus... I don't get Russian Navy, at all.  

They seem to have a glorified coast guard mentality for anything on the surface with a dash of few cruise missile VLS cells here and there.
That's it till 2025 for RuN.

What's up with Gorshkov?! They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?dunno

No news I've seen since announcement of the final final final final tests in Nov.

There is this nice pic though

KiloGolf wrote:They seem to have a glorified coast guard mentality for anything on the surface with a dash of few cruise missile VLS cells here and there.
That's it till 2025 for RuN.

and what mentality they should have taking into account budget/intl situation/timing? I look forward to hearing your say.

Yes, of course they should lay down fifty of the damn things... of course the company in Russia that will now be making engines for them wont be able to get that number of engines together until 2040 but you can keep them in the slipways and block other ships from being built while you wait...

Ironically smaller vessels would have smaller propulsion systems easier to make, and bigger vessels will likely have nuke propulsion which is also OK...

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:They seem to have a glorified coast guard mentality for anything on the surface with a dash of few cruise missile VLS cells here and there.
That's it till 2025 for RuN.

and what mentality they should have taking into account budget/intl situation/timing?  I look forward to hearing your say.

The mentality to commission 2-3 ships of the class by 2021.

Strawman Maker wrote:block other ships from being built while you wait...

What other ships are being built within acceptable timeframes in the shitshow called severnaya verf?

There aren't even any more ships to be blocked because the naval ministry doesn't know WTF it wants.

In all honesty Russia should prioritise construction of ships with shallow enough draft to be able to transit Unified Deep Water System because that would help unify Russian Northern, Baltic, Black and Caspian fleet in to one force deployable in any of those sectors at need. They should also prioritise maintenance of that channel network as an issue of utmost strategic priority. This would contribute more to effectiveness of Russian fleets and Russian national security than any big displacement surface ships, carriers, cruisers and so on people here tend to obsess with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Deep_Water_System_of_European_Russia

I would speculate that is key factor why Russian is at this moment giving priority to construction of large number of smaller ships with draft of 4 m or less, like Karakurt class, instead of making larger surface ships. It is smart decision.
,
And for any new Russian ship first issue you should try to find out is it able to transit Unified Deep Water System because that is more important then it's weapons, speed, autonomy and so on.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:They seem to have a glorified coast guard mentality for anything on the surface with a dash of few cruise missile VLS cells here and there.
That's it till 2025 for RuN.

and what mentality they should have taking into account budget/intl situation/timing?  I look forward to hearing your say.

The mentality to commission 2-3 ships of the class by 2021.

didn't you forget about budget and turbines factor right?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Strawman Maker wrote:block other ships from being built while you wait...

What other ships are being built within acceptable timeframes in the shitshow called severnaya verf?

There aren't even any more ships to be blocked because the naval ministry doesn't know WTF it wants.

Oh I am sure that MoD knows what it wants but there is also MoF which cuts most of proposals and intl situation changing. But I am interested in definition of "an acceptable time frame" ? and acceptable means what? how many months per which class? are you going to develop from scratch all modules of like in Spain assemble from ready foreign parts?

didn't you forget about budget and turbines factor right?

There are already turbines for the Gorshkov class.

Oh I am sure that MoD knows what it wants but there is also MoF which cuts most of proposals and intl situation changing. But I am interested in definition of "an acceptable time frame" ? and acceptable means what? how many months per which class? are you going to develop from scratch all modules of like in Spain assemble from ready foreign parts?

Then the MoF shouldn't be nosing around and instead almost completely stick to the 2020 armament program requirements.

Acceptable means 2-3 years build time for a frigate, max 8 months of testing.

1-2 years for a corvette, max 5 months of testing

7 months to 1 year for a minesweeper or missile boat, max 5 months of testing.

4 years for a destroyer max 2 years of testing.

In all honesty Russia should prioritise construction of ships with shallow enough draft to be able to transit Unified Deep Water System because that would help unify Russian Northern, Baltic, Black and Caspian fleet in to one force deployable in any of those sectors at need.

Would be my primary effort too.
But above that there is a clear need for a bunch of Frigates & if/when 22350 actually works properly it'll be a very good Frigate.

Rather than a 'coast-guard mentality' as the reason that there aren't more 22350s being built, its incredibly obvious that the program has suffered extreme concurrency hell, compounded by the Ukraine/Engine issue, absolutely nothing to do with lack of intent.

Then maybe what they actually need to do is redig those canals so they can take bigger ships.

At the end of the day all the Russian Navy needs is one articulated river barge a few kilometres long that can carry UKSK launch tubes for 500 Kalibrs and perhaps a similar number of Redut launch tubes... plus come corvette sized vessels to maintain their fisheries areas and clamp down on smugglers.