BMP-3 in Russian Army

Bloody hell?!!!

Were they THAT incompetent??

Rogozin isn't an authoritative source on anything.

I suspect the truth is a lot more complicated than what he said. Like MOD not paying for them in time.

I think we remember his little rant about not accepting old soviet crap... I rather suspect that when he said he would no longer accept BMP-3s into service they were likely old model BMP-3s with old equipment and systems and sensors.

I can understand not wanting to waste money on stuff that would need an upgrade before it could be put into useful service... especially if it wasn't that cheap to buy anyway.

Would you buy a 486 IBM clone now for $1,500 when you know you could get a palmtop computer to do most of the same jobs for the same money or less? (note the less is because maintainence and support for that 486 is going to be tricky and not cheap... try and buy a cheap 3.5 in floppy drive these days...

They simply shifted focus from BMP-3s and T-95s to the vehicles and systems and weapons that are going to replace them.

I can't say that was a mistake because if they didn't fast track the new vehicles and systems and weapons then we'd be talking about 2020 for the new vehicles at least.

GarryB wrote:I think we remember his little rant about not accepting old soviet crap... I rather suspect that when he said he would no longer accept BMP-3s into service they were likely old model BMP-3s with old equipment and systems and sensors.

I was going to point to the media campaign against the T-90/BMP-3/BMD-4 as well.

GarryB wrote:I think we remember his little rant about not accepting old soviet crap... I rather suspect that when he said he would no longer accept BMP-3s into service they were likely old model BMP-3s with old equipment and systems and sensors.

I can understand not wanting to waste money on stuff that would need an upgrade before it could be put into useful service... especially if it wasn't that cheap to buy anyway.

Would you buy a 486 IBM clone now for $1,500 when you know you could get a palmtop computer to do most of the same jobs for the same money or less? (note the less is because maintainence and support for that 486 is going to be tricky and not cheap... try and buy a cheap 3.5 in floppy drive these days...

They simply shifted focus from BMP-3s and T-95s to the vehicles and systems and weapons that are going to replace them.

I can't say that was a mistake because if they didn't fast track the new vehicles and systems and weapons then we'd be talking about 2020 for the new vehicles at least.

There is even older stuff lying around.
BMP-3 is at least newer than the BMP-1/2s, or of course the MT-LBs that some motor-rifle units are still equipped with

Quick question:
What is the level of armor protecting of the BMP-3, all i know is that the Frontal arc can withstand 30-35mm rounds what about the rest, and is there a difference between the 3 and 3M model??

http://www.kurganmash.ru/en/machines/bmp3u/protection/shield/

The up armored BMP-3 according to Kurganmash protects from 12.7 AP, from 50 meters.

So we can safely conclude that standard BMP-3 side hull protects from assault rifle fire.

Anyone recalls about the number of BMP-3 in question?

Defense Ministry still receive BMP-3, abandoned in 2010

The BMP-3 is a Soviet amphibious infantry fighting vehicle, successor to the BMP-1 and BMP-2.

Production history

The design of the BMP-3 or Obyekt 688M can be traced back to the Obyekt 685 light tank prototype with 100mm gun 2A48-1 from 1975. This vehicle did not enter series production but the chassis, with a new engine, was used for the next-generation infantry combat vehicle Obyekt 688 from A. Blagonravov's design bureau. The Ob. 688 weapons configuration—an externally mounted 30 mm gun and twin Konkurs ATGM launcher—was rejected; instead the new 2K23 armament system was selected. The resulting BMP-3 was developed in the early 1980s and entered service with the Soviet Army officially in 1987. It was shown for the first time in public during the 1990 May Day parade and was given the NATO code IFV M1990/1.

The BMP-3 is designed and produced by the Kurganmashzavod ("Kurgan Machine Building Plant") some variants however are build by the Rubtsovsk Machine Building Plant (RMZ), for example the BRM-3K.


Weaponry and optics

The BMP-3 is one of the most heavily armed infantry combat vehicles in service, fitted with a low-velocity 2A70 100mm rifled gun, which can fire conventional shells or 9M117 ATGMs (AT-10 Stabber). 40 100mm-rounds and 8 ATGMs are carried. A 2A72 30mm dual feed autocannon with 500 (300 HEI and 200 APT) rounds and a rate of fire of 350 to 400 RPM, and a 7.62mm PKT machine gun with 2,000 rounds, all mounted coaxially in the turret. The main gun elevates from −5° to +60°. There are also two 7.62mm PKT bow machine guns, again with 2,000 rounds each. The BMP-3 is capable of engaging targets out to 5,000–6,000 meters with its ATGM weapon system 9K116-3 "Basnya". The minimum engagement distance, flight time and vulnerability of launcher are typical of command-guided, rather than fire-and-forget, ATGM systems. With conventional ammunition, such as the HE-Frag shell 3OF32, the 2A70 gun has a range of 4,000 meters. The 3BM25 APFSDS round can also be used.

According to the manufacturer's web-site, all weapons can be fired from the halt, on the move, and afloat with the same effectiveness. The ability to hit targets on the move with missiles was successfully demonstrated during competitive evaluations in the UAE in 1991.[7]

The turret is fitted with the 2K23 system, which consists of an automatic loader with 22 rounds (the remaining 18 rounds are stored in the hull), a 1V539 ballistic computer, a cross-wind sensor, a 2E52-2 stabilising system, a 1D16-3 laser range finder, a 1K13-2 gunner's sight/guidance device, a PPB-1 gunner's sight and an OU-5-1 IR searchlight. The commander has a combined optical sight 1PZ-10, a day/night vision device TKN-3MB and an IR searchlight OU-3GA2. Since 2005, the BMP-3 can be fitted with a new fire control system from the "Peleng" Joint Stock Company from Belarus. This consists of a SOZH-M gunner's main sight with an integrated laser range-finder and missile-guidance channel, a Vesna-K targeting system with thermal imaging camera and automatic target tracker AST-B, an armament stabilisation system, a ballistic computer with data input sensors and a PL-1 IR laser projector.

Standard equipment includes five firing ports with associated vision blocks, an R-173 tranceiver, an R-173P receiver, a GO-27 radiation and chemical agent detector, an FVU filtration system, an automatic fire extinguisher and six 902V "Tucha-2" 81mm smoke grenade launchers.

Mobility

The vehicle has an unconventional layout. The engine is in the back of the vehicle to the right (unlike most other IFVs, which have the engine located forward in the hull). As a result, the driver is seated forward in the hull (in the center) together with two infantrymen (one on each side of the driver). The vehicle has a double bottom and the engine is located under the floor of the vehicle (troops enter/leave the vehicle over the engine). The remaining five infantrymen are seated aft of the two man turret.

Early models were powered by a 450 hp engine UTD-29, but most BMP-3s are now equipped with the 500 hp UTD-29M version. The engine was developed at the Transmash Diesel Engine Plant in Barnaul. The BMP-3 has a range of 600 km. up to an altitude of operation of 3,000 m. it is transportable by train, truck, sea, and air. The BMP-3 engine is a diesel four-stroke, liquid-cooled design. The transmission is a four-speed hydromechanical power unit, with power takeoff to its water jets. The suspension is independent with torsion bar and 6 hydraulic shock absorbers. Steering is by gear differential with hydrostatic drive. The track adjusting mechanism is remotely controlled from the driver's station, with tension force indication. The water-jet propulsion unit is single-stage, axial, auger-type.

Countermeasures

The hull and turret are made of aluminum, with the front being provided with a layer of spaced armor. Over the frontal 60 degree arc, the vehicle is protected against 30 mm armor-piercing rounds of 2A42 gun at a range of 300 m. In an effort to improve battlefield survivability, the fuel tanks are also located in the floor of the vehicle.

The BMP-3 can lay its own smoke screen by injecting fuel into the exhaust. A chemical agent detector, an FVU filtration system, an automatic fire extinguisher and six 902V "Tucha-2" 81mm smoke grenade launchers are standard.

An explosive reactive armour kit is currently available, providing increased protection. However, using ERA on an IFV is considered problematic by some experts, since in the event of the malfunction of the ERA, it can possibly pose a threat to friendly troops located in the vicinity of the vehicle.[16] According to Kurganmashzavod, the BMP-3 may be fitted with additional side armour tiles, which can resist .50 caliber armour-piercing ammunition.

The BMP-3 also has the ability to carry a Shtora electro-optical jammer that disrupts semiautomatic command to line of sight (SACLOS) antitank guided missiles, laser rangefinders and target designators. Shtora is a soft-kill, or passive-countermeasure system.

i wonder if BMP-3 can serve in Russian army as a reconnaissance tank like PT-76 in old era

That information is a little confusing...

With conventional ammunition, such as the HE-Frag shell 3OF32, the 2A70 gun has a range of 4,000 meters. The 3BM25 APFSDS round can also be used.

The 2A70 is the 100mm rifled gun in the current version is a medium pressure gun with a range of 7,000 metres. The APFSDS rounds are for the 2A72 30mm cannon and are rather better than previously used 30mm cannon rounds in terms of armour penetration.

The new turret design for the BMP-3M has all forty 100mm rounds in the lower turret mounted autoloader and 8 missiles ready to load in the same mechanism.

The new missiles developed for the BMP-3M are much smaller and are closer in size to the standard 100mm HE Frag rounds and can presumably be loaded in the 40 round mechanism like standard rounds.

Greatly increasing the number of guided rounds that can be carried and presumably reducing the number of rounds needed to kill a particular target.

Russian Defense Ministry orders several hundred combat vehicles — manufacturer

The manufacturer will continue providing BMP-3 combat vehicles until research and development of the new Kurganets-25 platform is completed

MOSCOW, May 12. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the Tractor Plants concern have signed a contract for the supply of several dozen mechanized infantry combat vehicles BMP-3, the concern’s vice-president and co-owner, Albert Bakov, has told TASS.

"We have concluded a three-year contract with the Defense Ministry for supplying hundreds of BMP-3," he said.

In the process of the BMP-s serial production the vehicle’s design underwent 1,500 amendments.

Bakov said that Kurganmashzavod, an affiliate of the Tractor Plants, said would continue providing BMP-3 until the completion of research and development of the Kurganets-25 platform and the beginning of the serial production of a new generation of combat vehicles on its basis.

George1 wrote:Russian Defense Ministry orders several hundred combat vehicles — manufacturer

The manufacturer will continue providing BMP-3 combat vehicles until research and development of the new Kurganets-25 platform is completed

MOSCOW, May 12. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the Tractor Plants concern have signed a contract for the supply of several dozen mechanized infantry combat vehicles BMP-3, the concern’s vice-president and co-owner, Albert Bakov, has told TASS.

"We have concluded a three-year contract with the Defense Ministry for supplying hundreds of BMP-3," he said.

In the process of the BMP-s serial production the vehicle’s design underwent 1,500 amendments.

Bakov said that Kurganmashzavod, an affiliate of the Tractor Plants, said would continue providing BMP-3 until the completion of research and development of the Kurganets-25 platform and the beginning of the serial production of a new generation of combat vehicles on its basis.

Bmp good stop gap.

K25 later

Here is an article on a prototype electromechanical transmission for installation in BMP-3.

Electromechanical Transmission Prototype

what should become the BMP-3 in future?

I'd like to see it as a "light tank", it's not and will not be an obsolete machine! It just fits another role than Kurganets 25, explanation:


Let's say, a full combat IFV batalion with Kurganets, and BMP-3:

COMMAND UNIT OF BAT.
Kurganets CP (command post, not yet in existance)
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR

COMPANY-1
command section
Kurganets BTR
BMP-3
BMP-3

platoon1
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP

platoon2
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP

COMPANY-2
command section
Kurganets BTR
BMP-3
BMP-3

platoon1
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP

platoon2
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP

COMPANY-3
command section
Kurganets BTR
BMP-3
BMP-3

platoon1
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP

platoon2
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP
Kurganets BTR
Kurganets BMP

FIRE SUPPORT AND RECON COMPANY
command section
Kurganets BTR
BMP-3
BMP-3

platoon1
BMP-3
BMP-3
BMP-3
BMP-3

platoon2
BMP-3
BMP-3
BMP-3
BMP-3

For a total of 16 BMP-3, 31 Kurganets variants: 13 BMP, 17 BTR, 1 CP, 47 total AFV for a batalion. I love the 4 units type platoon, it gives 2 units team possibility, i just don't like soviet/russian style 3 units platoon 3 platoon company, etc... also, the command section of each company now has its own fire support team of 2 BMP-3. The mix BTR/BMP variant of kurganets makes a cheaper and still perfectly useful combination. The BMP-3 is the shock element of the batalion with firepower, small size, convenient to use as a recon unit. Crew + dismount (if 7 per BMP-3 and K BMP and 8 per K BTR) total men of the batallion (only for fighting AFV units) is something like: 160/BMP-3, 187/K-BTR, 130/K-BMP, ~6/K-CP, total 483 men.

And it would be the same in Armata type unit, but maybe not in boomerang unit.

3 batallion would make the total at 48 BMP-3, 93 Kurganets variants for a kurganets brigade, + a batallion of fire support composed of tanks? or full BMP-3? I think T-72B3 would be perfect here. + usual support and logistic units, + AA defense and artillery units.

Interesting, since I'm also a fan of the BMP-3

Perhaps it would be better to mount a BMP-3 turret on a Kurganets platform though. That way you would still have the 100mm gun capabilty without having 2 different platforms

The idea of a boomerang or Kurganets or Armata or Typhoon unit is to reduce the size of the logistics tail.

having one engine, one transmission, one set of wheels, one type of track etc etc simplify the logistics tail so it only needs one set of spare parts and tools.

Adding BMP-3s means different engine different parts and different systems... and a vehicle with different mobility properties and different weight and different protection levels.


The question I would ask would be... what does the BMP-3M offer that a Kurganets can't... Kurganets offers more modern vehicle, more powerful engine, better protection and pretty much any turret and fire power you can put on a BMP-3M you can put on a Kurganets.

In an armata unit the BMP-3M would be seriously under protected.

BMP-3Ms future will be in older units with older vehicle types as an IFV and recon vehicle.

GarryB wrote:The idea of a boomerang or Kurganets or Armata or Typhoon unit is to reduce the size of the logistics tail.

having one engine, one transmission, one set of wheels, one type of track etc etc simplify the logistics tail so it only needs one set of spare parts and tools.

Adding BMP-3s means different engine different parts and different systems... and a vehicle with different mobility properties and different weight and different protection levels.


The question I would ask would be... what does the BMP-3M offer that a Kurganets can't... Kurganets offers more modern vehicle, more powerful engine, better protection and pretty much any turret and fire power you can put on a BMP-3M you can put on a Kurganets.

In an armata unit the BMP-3M would be seriously under protected.

BMP-3Ms future will be in older units with older vehicle types as an IFV and recon vehicle.

It offers cheap SKD kits readily available only standing still since a decade ago because no one would take them. They're six months to a year away from obtaining about 300 BMP-3M's that allow right now for a bigger versatility. I think I had this discussion with Mike-E the K-25 is a better platform (although it stems from the BMP-3  axiom) but the weapons' suite is lacking right now. There haven't been feasability tests to drop the 100/30 tandem on the K-25 because of the requirements for a new suite. It also offers right now better and more varied ammunition count. 40 100mm rounds (including up to 8 GF-ATGM's) while at best the K-25 so far has been mustered with 4+4 ATGM's. Granted it's 8 Kornets but still.

Nevermind that the log train for the BMP-3 is relatively similar when it comes to the rolling train and you could drop a K-25 engine to a BMP-3.

This is clearly a way to lower the cost of transition from older platform to newer ones and making a seemingly stop-gap solution into a stepping stone instead. Like usual the Russian Mod does make interesting decision that become blessings or curses overtime.

Personally I don't see this as being that bad. Off course this also allows for more time to iron out the K-25's suite....


BTW i already welcome our US friends attempt to make an already overweight and underpowered vehicle even less mobile by incorporating a 30+ mm drop in turret. That's some clever thinking right there especially wargaming in those marshes in Poland and Hungary should be fun fun fun...

I like the BMP-3 too, but the point of the new vehicle families is unification of types to simplify logistics.

With that in mind it is OK to buy new BMP-3s... it just doesn't make sense to try to integrate them into units with the new vehicles... just insert them into older units to boost firepower.

I remember early assessments of the BMP-3 and one decided that the idea would be for a group of the vehicles to deliver their troops into one position to fire upon the enemy and one or two vehicles remain with the troops to provide direct fire support, while the rest of the vehicles (8-10) could then be freed up to act as a mobile reserve to attack from a different flank, or to fire in the indirect fire mode like local artillery.

the soviets had lots of experience with IFVs using both large calibre guns with decent HE payloads (BMP-1 with 73mm gun) and with high velocity cannon (BMP-2 with 30mm 2A42 cannon) and they found that rather than being a replacement, the BMP-2 complimented the BMP-1... they realised that decent HE fire power in the direct and indirect fire role was valuable... hense the BMP-3 incorporates the 2A72 long recoil 30mm cannon (long recoil to reduce smoke build up in the turret) and the 100mm rifled 2A80 cannon with a powerful HE shell and ability to launch guided missiles to 7km range. The primary round was a standard HE round so the weapon was rifled.

These days I would suggest that the 100mm rifle gun could be replaced by the 120mm gun/mortar... heavier shell, more ammo options, longer range, already in use so you could eliminate the 122mm artillery gun and the 100mm 2A80 gun and just use the 120mm rifled gun, which can also fire mortar shells, guided missiles for the 120mm mortars and 122mm guns.

GarryB wrote:I like the BMP-3 too, but the point of the new vehicle families is unification of types to simplify logistics.

With that in mind it is OK to buy new BMP-3s... it just doesn't make sense to try to integrate them into units with the new vehicles... just insert them into older units to boost firepower.

I remember early assessments of the BMP-3 and one decided that the idea would be for a group of the vehicles to deliver their troops into one position to fire upon the enemy and one or two vehicles remain with the troops to provide direct fire support, while the rest of the vehicles (8-10) could then be freed up to act as a mobile reserve to attack from a different flank, or to fire in the indirect fire mode like local artillery.

the soviets had lots of experience with IFVs using both large calibre guns with decent HE payloads (BMP-1 with 73mm gun) and with high velocity cannon (BMP-2 with 30mm 2A42 cannon) and they found that rather than being a replacement, the BMP-2 complimented the BMP-1... they realised that decent HE fire power in the direct and indirect fire role was valuable... hense the BMP-3 incorporates the 2A72 long recoil 30mm cannon (long recoil to reduce smoke build up in the turret) and the 100mm rifled 2A80 cannon with a powerful HE shell and ability to launch guided missiles to 7km range. The primary round was a standard HE round so the weapon was rifled.

These days I would suggest that the 100mm rifle gun could be replaced by the 120mm gun/mortar... heavier shell, more ammo options, longer range, already in use so you could eliminate the 122mm artillery gun and the 100mm 2A80 gun and just use the 120mm rifled gun, which can also fire mortar shells, guided missiles for the 120mm mortars and 122mm guns.

I agree that the Non-A K has been very interesting to see work in Ukraine.

GarryB wrote:I like the BMP-3 too, but the point of the new vehicle families is unification of types to simplify logistics.

With that in mind it is OK to buy new BMP-3s... it just doesn't make sense to try to integrate them into units with the new vehicles... just insert them into older units to boost firepower.

I remember early assessments of the BMP-3 and one decided that the idea would be for a group of the vehicles to deliver their troops into one position to fire upon the enemy and one or two vehicles remain with the troops to provide direct fire support, while the rest of the vehicles (8-10) could then be freed up to act as a mobile reserve to attack from a different flank, or to fire in the indirect fire mode like local artillery.

the soviets had lots of experience with IFVs using both large calibre guns with decent HE payloads (BMP-1 with 73mm gun) and with high velocity cannon (BMP-2 with 30mm 2A42 cannon) and they found that rather than being a replacement, the BMP-2 complimented the BMP-1... they realised that decent HE fire power in the direct and indirect fire role was valuable... hense the BMP-3 incorporates the 2A72 long recoil 30mm cannon (long recoil to reduce smoke build up in the turret) and the 100mm rifled 2A80 cannon with a powerful HE shell and ability to launch guided missiles to 7km range. The primary round was a standard HE round so the weapon was rifled.

These days I would suggest that the 100mm rifle gun could be replaced by the 120mm gun/mortar... heavier shell, more ammo options, longer range, already in use so you could eliminate the 122mm artillery gun and the 100mm 2A80 gun and just use the 120mm rifled gun, which can also fire mortar shells, guided missiles for the 120mm mortars and 122mm guns.

I luv the 30/100 gun but 30/120? wow!

If update fire control + navigate it ok
T90 + Bmp still strong

If they went for a 120mm gun/mortar then the anti armour performance of the 30mm becomes less important so you could go to a much lighter cannon like the KPB in 23 x 115mm calibre.

the ammo is so compact you could carry 5 times more ammo in the same volume, so instead of 500 x 30mm cannon shells you could probably carry about 2,000 23mm cannon shells.

I would think a good combination in the future armoured units would be half the IFVs armed with 120mm rifled gun/mortars and 23mm cannon paired together, and the other half with high velocity 57mm or 45mm guns.

The BMP-T could have a 120mm gun mortar with PKT coaxial MG, and a 6 barrel 23mm gatling and a 40mm Balkan grenade launcher package which would allow high firepower and a range of shooting options.

Вооруженная 57-мм пушкой с новейшими боеприпасами БМП-3 станет сильнейшей в мире
Armed with 57-mm cannon with the latest ammunition BMP-3 will be the strongest in the world
15.08.2015 11:33

More Here: http://www.vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-13135.htm

About the possibility of equipping the BMP-3 module AU-220M with a 57-mm gun became clear when the information about the combat system appeared on the official website of the developer JSC CRI "Petrel". There was placed a computer image of the modernized BMP. Desert camouflage pointed out which countries are the first customers.

AW-220M has a perfect fire control system (FCS), which includes a combined sighting system with TV and IR channels, laser range finders and independent 2-planar stabilization of the visual field.

With MSA possible effective detection and identification of targets, guidance on their 57-mm automatic cannon and 7.62 mm machine guns firing from both places, and while driving, as well as to overcome water obstacles.

Automatic 57 mm gun has a maximum rate of fire of 120 rds. / Min. Ammunition - 200 shots. Maximum firing range - up to 12 km. The ammunition includes armor-piercing, high-explosive, as well as the latest guided missiles, which further increase the already high accuracy.

With gun paired machine gun 7.62 mm. His ammunition was 2,000 rounds.

The module rotates 360 degrees. Capable of striking targets in the vertical: from minus 5 to plus 75 degrees.

According to military experts, the AU-220M can be installed not only on newly issued or upgraded BMP-3, but also on the perspective of the machine type, "Kurganets-25," "Boomerang" and "Armata".According to military experts, the AU-220M can be installed not only on newly issued or upgraded BMP-3, but also on the perspective of the machine type, "Kurganets-25," "Boomerang" and "Armata".

BMP-3 the 57mm AU220M Automatic Weapon Station.

How feasible would it be to install a 45mm on the BMP-3 while keeping the 100mm gun?