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It was at the last session of the russian defence ministry board, 23.12. With Putin. There was a small exhibition held in the atrium.
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69 posters
Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers
Hole- Posts : 11099
Points : 11077
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
Hole- Posts : 11099
Points : 11077
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
flamming_python- Posts : 9516
Points : 9574
Join date : 2012-01-30
charly015 delivers as always
George1- Posts : 18497
Points : 19000
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
So armament will be:
16x Kalibr VLS
8x Uran missiles
and 2xTor-M2MKM SAMs
16x Kalibr VLS
8x Uran missiles
and 2xTor-M2MKM SAMs
GarryB- Posts : 40443
Points : 40943
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Well to be fair the drawing shows Urans but I don't see Urans on the model so that might just be wishful thinking.
Certainly the Urans would fit there rather easily, but whether they actually put any there is another question.
To be honest I would think with that free space they could put one of those deck mounted TOR launchers instead to beef up the number of ready to fire TORs would be a more efficient use of that space... though Uran is a nice weapon in its own right and has dual anti ship and land attack options which makes it quite flexible too.
Certainly the Urans would fit there rather easily, but whether they actually put any there is another question.
To be honest I would think with that free space they could put one of those deck mounted TOR launchers instead to beef up the number of ready to fire TORs would be a more efficient use of that space... though Uran is a nice weapon in its own right and has dual anti ship and land attack options which makes it quite flexible too.
Hole- Posts : 11099
Points : 11077
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
Pics from the yard. Uran seems very likely.
Isos- Posts : 11589
Points : 11557
Join date : 2015-11-06
Of course they will put weapons where the older main weapon were. They should have even gone with the already tested angled launchers for Oniks. Kh35 can be launched by one of the two ka-27. There should be room for two missile in the back (mostly against little armed or replainishment ships).
George1- Posts : 18497
Points : 19000
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
They should put Redut also and at least 24x Kalibrs
Isos- Posts : 11589
Points : 11557
Join date : 2015-11-06
George1 wrote:They should put Redut also and at least 24x Kalibrs
They already put two uksk instead of the main gun which is 16 missiles. With two more angled uksk they would have 32 missiles but 16 of them would be oniks because kalibr isn't design for angled VLS. But that frees space in the normal uksk for only kalibr.
UKSK takes 10m in deapth. Only available space is were they already put them in place of the gun and in angled launchers. The internal design is not suited for long VLS.
Redut also needs brand new radars that would increase the timeline and the costs and would replace tor vls.
flamming_python- Posts : 9516
Points : 9574
Join date : 2012-01-30
Who says the angled launchers are not for Onyx?
Anyway though if they got rid of the main gun, then the Uran makes sense.
Anyway though if they got rid of the main gun, then the Uran makes sense.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4852
Points : 4842
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
Given the Udaloys are classified as Large ASW Ships, I'd expect that at least half of the UKSK will likely be ASW missiles to support the large bow sonar, helo and towed array.
The Urans make sense for self-defense and to compensate for carrying a significant ASW loadout.
The Urans make sense for self-defense and to compensate for carrying a significant ASW loadout.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
Points : 13496
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
flamming_python wrote:Who says the angled launchers are not for Onyx?
Anyway though if they got rid of the main gun, then the Uran makes sense.
Angled Onyx was never developed
Isos- Posts : 11589
Points : 11557
Join date : 2015-11-06
PapaDragon wrote:flamming_python wrote:Who says the angled launchers are not for Onyx?
Anyway though if they got rid of the main gun, then the Uran makes sense.
Angled Onyx was never developed
Yes it was since it was even tested on a Nanushka corvette.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
Points : 13496
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Isos wrote:PapaDragon wrote:flamming_python wrote:Who says the angled launchers are not for Onyx?
Anyway though if they got rid of the main gun, then the Uran makes sense.
Angled Onyx was never developed
Yes it was since it was even tested on a Nanushka corvette.
It was a failed and discontinued side project from decades ago
Udalois will be getting Urans (at best) and that's it
Isos- Posts : 11589
Points : 11557
Join date : 2015-11-06
It was a failed and discontinued side project from decades ago
Udalois will be getting Urans (at best) and that's it
Few years after Brahmos was introduced in angled launchers so no it wasn't a failed project.
Hole- Posts : 11099
Points : 11077
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
PapaDragon wrote:Isos wrote:PapaDragon wrote:flamming_python wrote:Who says the angled launchers are not for Onyx?
Anyway though if they got rid of the main gun, then the Uran makes sense.
Angled Onyx was never developed
Yes it was since it was even tested on a Nanushka corvette.
It was a failed and discontinued side project from decades ago
Udalois will be getting Urans (at best) and that's it
Plus 16 VLS for Onyx, Kaliber and Tsirkon.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
Points : 13496
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Hole wrote:....Plus 16 VLS for Onyx, Kaliber and Tsirkon.
Yes, in that box up front, that was never in doubt
Isos wrote:....Few years after Brahmos was introduced in angled launchers so no it wasn't a failed project.
Russia never got anywhere close to using angled lunchers for Onyx and they have no plans to
Project was ditched decades ago
Isos- Posts : 11589
Points : 11557
Join date : 2015-11-06
Russia never got anywhere close to using angled lunchers for Onyx and they have no plans to
Project was ditched decades ago
They never needed it. New ships have UKSK and older were never modernized with new anti ship missiles until recently.
They have the perfect occasion to use it on Udaloys.
And even the project was dead, making an angled launcher for an already existing missiles is very easy. Matter of months.
If they are not stupid they will use them instead of kh35.
GarryB- Posts : 40443
Points : 40943
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
So many people making interesting claims...
The UKSK launcher is a vertical launch system that can fire Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos, as well as the Club family of export missiles and the similar but much longer ranged domestic Kalibr range of weapons... all of these weapons either fire their main rocket engines to launch out of the vertical tubes or have a booster rocket engine that blows them out of the tube where their main rocket engines lights up and continues the launch.
If it can launch the object clear of the launch tubes vertically then why would anyone think it couldn't do the same on an angle?
The Kalibr family are all 533mm weapons designed to be launched from a horizontal torpedo tube so firing at an angle shouldn't really be a big issue.
An important point for this discussion is that the mockup modified image of the upgraded Udaloy used to advertise the angled UKSK launch tubes actually shows a modified Udaloy design with one UKSK vertical launcher where the old second mounted 100mm gun is located with the areas under the sides of the bridge where the Metel missiles were located having angled UKSK launchers... in the modified image it also has Uran missiles but they are mounted near the back of the ship facing sideways in two quad launchers... something like this:
go to this page:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/klab-u/
And to the left of the page there are two images... a big one and a smaller one. Click on the smaller one and it should open a much larger image...
Note according to that page the angled launchers can carry the subsonic and mach 3 supersonic versions of Kalibr as well as the land attack model Kalibr too.
Of course the anti sub and Onyx and Zircon could be carried in the vertical tubes.
The UKSK launcher is a vertical launch system that can fire Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos, as well as the Club family of export missiles and the similar but much longer ranged domestic Kalibr range of weapons... all of these weapons either fire their main rocket engines to launch out of the vertical tubes or have a booster rocket engine that blows them out of the tube where their main rocket engines lights up and continues the launch.
If it can launch the object clear of the launch tubes vertically then why would anyone think it couldn't do the same on an angle?
The Kalibr family are all 533mm weapons designed to be launched from a horizontal torpedo tube so firing at an angle shouldn't really be a big issue.
An important point for this discussion is that the mockup modified image of the upgraded Udaloy used to advertise the angled UKSK launch tubes actually shows a modified Udaloy design with one UKSK vertical launcher where the old second mounted 100mm gun is located with the areas under the sides of the bridge where the Metel missiles were located having angled UKSK launchers... in the modified image it also has Uran missiles but they are mounted near the back of the ship facing sideways in two quad launchers... something like this:
go to this page:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/klab-u/
And to the left of the page there are two images... a big one and a smaller one. Click on the smaller one and it should open a much larger image...
Note according to that page the angled launchers can carry the subsonic and mach 3 supersonic versions of Kalibr as well as the land attack model Kalibr too.
Of course the anti sub and Onyx and Zircon could be carried in the vertical tubes.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2488
Points : 2479
Join date : 2013-02-02
Honestly, i don't see much point in upgrading these ships at the moment, if it's to put more UKSKs at sea, then so be it.
But i wouldn't put to much for a priority on it.
Right now, all resources should be going to Gorshkov and it's other variants.
But i guess these stopgaps are needed thanks to the delays.
There are only 6 Udaloys and 8 Sovremennys, so at least Russia will finally have some decent ships bigger than Corvettes in the double digits.
But i wouldn't put to much for a priority on it.
Right now, all resources should be going to Gorshkov and it's other variants.
But i guess these stopgaps are needed thanks to the delays.
There are only 6 Udaloys and 8 Sovremennys, so at least Russia will finally have some decent ships bigger than Corvettes in the double digits.
Isos- Posts : 11589
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Join date : 2015-11-06
AlfaT8 wrote:Honestly, i don't see much point in upgrading these ships at the moment, if it's to put more UKSKs at sea, then so be it.
But i wouldn't put to much for a priority on it.
Right now, all resources should be going to Gorshkov and it's other variants.
But i guess these stopgaps are needed thanks to the delays.
There are only 6 Udaloys and 8 Sovremennys, so at least Russia will finally have some decent ships bigger than Corvettes in the double digits.
Yeah but what's their capability to produce Gorshkov ? If they can lay down only for exemple 5 at the same time and they need 7 or 8 years to finish them then upgrading Udaloys isn't a bad idea.
Then your number of 8 Sovs in seevice is IMO wrong. Most of the sovs are rusting in port and not used. I saw on different sources that only 2 or 3 are still used and they are pretty outdated.
Finally russian navy is split in two for the biggest ships. Northern and pacific. So having 10 main frigates means 5 in the north and 5 in the pacific. That's not many as the northern fleet takes care of nato and pacific of USA abd Japan.
They have no choice other than upgrade udaloys which are the backbone of their fleet right now.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
Points : 13496
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
AlfaT8 wrote:...
There are only 6 Udaloys and 8 Sovremennys, so at least Russia will finally have some decent ships bigger than Corvettes in the double digits.
6 Udalois and 1 Sovremenny, all others are retired and this last one will be soon as well
GarryB- Posts : 40443
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
They don't need to make them super arsenal ships... replace the old weapons systems with current systems which makes them easier to operate... all of their ports will have loading systems and missiles for these weapon systems so supporting and arming these ships will be easier in the various places they might operate.
New weapons make it easier to operate and more capable, but new sensors would be interesting as well... a chance to test some sets they might be intending to use on their new bigger vessels... a chance to test and troubleshoot... and if they work they can greatly improve the performance of the ships... if they don't then they will have time to work out temporary alternatives for upgraded ships while they work on proper solutions for new build ships that will be needing them in 6-8 years time.
Linking them to the new network for the Navy means the targets they detect can be added to the collective information database, and their weapons can be added to the database of solutions to the threats and targets... they might not add a fundamental shift in performance, but they will add to their capabilities.
They will also provide an opportunity to sail further and longer and to show the flag around the world... I am sure Venezuela would appreciate some visits and trade links with a country that doesn't want to murder them to steal their resources...
New weapons make it easier to operate and more capable, but new sensors would be interesting as well... a chance to test some sets they might be intending to use on their new bigger vessels... a chance to test and troubleshoot... and if they work they can greatly improve the performance of the ships... if they don't then they will have time to work out temporary alternatives for upgraded ships while they work on proper solutions for new build ships that will be needing them in 6-8 years time.
Linking them to the new network for the Navy means the targets they detect can be added to the collective information database, and their weapons can be added to the database of solutions to the threats and targets... they might not add a fundamental shift in performance, but they will add to their capabilities.
They will also provide an opportunity to sail further and longer and to show the flag around the world... I am sure Venezuela would appreciate some visits and trade links with a country that doesn't want to murder them to steal their resources...
flamming_python- Posts : 9516
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Join date : 2012-01-30
How about angled Zircons? 
That will give the Udaloys serious punch, and they have the superstructure size to support high and large enough radars to take advantage of it
The UKSK launchers can be reserved for anti-sub missiles, which will enable the Udaloys to keep fulfilling their original role of ASW.
That will give the Udaloys serious punch, and they have the superstructure size to support high and large enough radars to take advantage of it
The UKSK launchers can be reserved for anti-sub missiles, which will enable the Udaloys to keep fulfilling their original role of ASW.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2488
Points : 2479
Join date : 2013-02-02
PapaDragon wrote:AlfaT8 wrote:...
There are only 6 Udaloys and 8 Sovremennys, so at least Russia will finally have some decent ships bigger than Corvettes in the double digits.
6 Udalois and 1 Sovremenny, all others are retired and this last one will be soon as well
Well that's just great, so not even double digits.
GarryB wrote:They don't need to make them super arsenal ships... replace the old weapons systems with current systems which makes them easier to operate... all of their ports will have loading systems and missiles for these weapon systems so supporting and arming these ships will be easier in the various places they might operate.
New weapons make it easier to operate and more capable, but new sensors would be interesting as well... a chance to test some sets they might be intending to use on their new bigger vessels... a chance to test and troubleshoot... and if they work they can greatly improve the performance of the ships... if they don't then they will have time to work out temporary alternatives for upgraded ships while they work on proper solutions for new build ships that will be needing them in 6-8 years time.
So in the end, it's still a stopgap measure, thanks to the delays of the Gorshkovs.
Oh well, it's the best that can be done given Russia's snails pace at shipbuilding.