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Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Big_Gazza

Big_Gazza: Posts : 4908
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Post n°326

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Big_Gazza Sun May 31, 2020 9:52 pm

From the Gorshkov thread:

Sea of change: Admiral Gorshkov frigate awaits modernization

Full Article
https://iz.ru/1017484/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/more-peremen-fregat-admiral-gorshkov-zhdet-modernizatciia

Interestingly, this article refers to the Udaloy modernisation program:

The first will be strengthened by the Marshal Shaposhnikov BPC, which will receive launchers for Caliber cruise missiles, hypersonic Zircon and S-400 Redut air defense systems.

S-400s on the Shapashnikov??? Where exactly????

I'll assume this is just another example of Russian journos being just as stupid as their Western counterparts?

mnztr

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Post n°327

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

mnztr Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:55 am

GarryB wrote:The Sovs were impressive looking ships with well balanced armament. Their propulsion was not great, but if they can solve those issues I am sure they would be useful for the next 20 years so that new bigger ships wont be so urgently required and they can take the time to get them right.

I seem to remember someone mentioning that they had over 1,000 x 130mm rounds for sustained naval gunfire support roles, and of course their main missile armament is optimised to penetrate an AEGIS class cruisers defences...

COGAG while not state of the art is still pretty damn good. Its a fast, nice sized ship pretty good range. I think a worthwhile exercise.

Hole

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Post n°328

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Hole Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:14 am

The Sovremenny class has steam turbines and diesel generators, not gas turbines.

mnztr

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Post n°329

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

mnztr Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:07 am

Hole wrote:The Sovremenny class has steam turbines and diesel generators, not gas turbines.

I was talking about Udaloy class. I doubt they will rehab the Sovremnny will they?

PapaDragon

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Post n°330

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

PapaDragon Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:10 am

mnztr wrote:

Hole wrote:The Sovremenny class has steam turbines and diesel generators, not gas turbines.

I was talking about Udaloy class. I doubt they will rehab the Sovremnny will they?

They won't, one is already a museum ship

mnztr

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Post n°331

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

mnztr Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:14 pm

They are overhauling them but I don't think they are doing much more then that.

GarryB

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Post n°332

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

GarryB Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:05 am

Details of the "alcove" behind the ex-Metel launcher. Could this structure be intended as a support for new equipment and a bulkhead to fully enclose this area?

I would think if they are mounting Urans there that leaving that open would allow rocket blast to escape rather than be bottled up and become dangerous...

S-400s on the Shapashnikov??? Where exactly????

I'll assume this is just another example of Russian journos being just as stupid as their Western counterparts?

Back to top

Presumably replacing Klintok... replacing the Klintok with S-350/Redut would make sense, but why do the directors for Klintok remain fitted?

I would say he is mistaken... or perhaps they have a hybrid naval TOR and S-350 launch system... the new TOR are half the size so 64 missiles would take up half the space they did before... so perhaps the freed up space could have a few S-350 launchers there to extend reach...

TOR missiles are command guided so they are very cheap to use, while the ARH seekers of the 9M96 missiles probably mean they are a lot more expensive.

Having multiple guidance channels and the main ship radar searching for targets the TOR could probably engage a lot of targets at once, while S-350 could engage aircraft launching weapons at the ship...

They are overhauling them but I don't think they are doing much more then that.

They are probably finalising the design for a new multirole destroyer... I doubt they will make huge changes in the existing models... just upgrade them where possible to carry newer weapons and the electronics to be able to use them effectively... and when the new vessels are ready they can be moved to the reserve for jobs like pirate hunter etc... or tanker escort...

The-thing-next-door

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Post n°333

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

The-thing-next-door Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:44 am

GarryB wrote: they can be moved to the reserve for jobs like pirate hunter

Now I would love to see some pirates go up against a Sarych class.

GarryB

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Post n°334

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

GarryB Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:45 pm

Now I would love to see some pirates go up against a Sarych class.

They would go up... and then come down in little pieces... attack

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°335

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

SeigSoloyvov Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:50 am

GarryB wrote:

Now I would love to see some pirates go up against a Sarych class.

They would go up... and then come down in little pieces...

Well, I'd hope so considering those pirates have little dinghies.

Big_Gazza

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Post n°336

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Big_Gazza Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:15 am

Pic showing a better view of the Uran launcher of the Shaposhnikov. I'd judge that they do indeed intend to close the bulkhead aft of the launcher and partially enclose the area for new equipment.

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 09-8722257-shapka

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 09-8722257-shapka

medo

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Post n°337

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

medo Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:12 am

Shaposhnikov got new electronic equipment. It have new modern front search radar and new front engagement radar on place of old Klinok engagement radar. It looks like frontal Klinok will be replaced by Redut complex, while back Klinok will remain as short range defense. Question is, how many Redut missiles it will have and will they be only medium range ones or also long range 9M96 missiles. With long range ones, it will be quite powerful destroyer.

Hole

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Post n°338

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Hole Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:52 pm

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 000342

Looks more like the radar for the new naval Tor version.

Isos

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Post n°339

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Isos Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:28 pm

Hole wrote:
Looks more like the radar for the new naval Tor version.

Not the same at all. Maybe they changed the design because it actually doesn't need the search radar on the turret (of your picture) as there is already 2 on the ship.

Any better picture than this side shot ?

Edit: the top radar seems to be a Pozitiv M1-2 radar working in x band and having a range of 80km in export version.

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/pozitiv-me1-2/

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 426b3010

It also has a fregat radar in the rear (not shown on the picture. I wonder if they upgraded it with a newer radar. They have plenty of new ground surveillance radars that can be made in a sea version to replace it.

Also there seem to be no OTH radar. I remember they have a particular radar for ships that can spot ships pretty far away, I don't remember the name.

Edit2: I found the name. It's the Mineral radar that can work by triangulation with other ship's Mineral.

GarryB

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Post n°340

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

GarryB Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:26 am

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 09-87210

So here is a close in view of the ships bridge and in line with the forward facing windows of the bridge you can see a blast deflector below.

It is not a full width deflector that fills the gap so perhaps forward of that and angled out sideways rather than directly forward a Uran quad missile mount could be fitted.

dino00

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Post n°341

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

dino00 Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:32 pm

Accumulated “Shell”: frigate “Marshal Shaposhnikov” will be equipped with new air defense

The modernized ship will receive impenetrable anti-aircraft defense

The upgraded frigate Marshal Shaposhnikov will receive an impenetrable shield. As sources in the military department told Izvestia, the issue of the possible installation of the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex (SPRAK) on a ship is currently being studied

Several options for installing the Pantsir-M ZRAK on the frigate “Marshal Shaposhnikov” of project 1155 “Udaloy” are currently being worked out, sources in the Ministry of Defense told Izvestia. True, according to the interlocutors of the publication, there are some technical difficulties associated with determining the optimal location of the new air defense system. Currently, they are considering the possibility of its placement both in the stern of the ship, and in the central one.

https://iz.ru/1022607/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/narastili-pantcir-fregat-marshal-shaposhnikov-osnastiat-novoi-pvo

LMFS

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Post n°342

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

LMFS Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:33 am

The Shaposhnikov starts sea trials, we have the first images of the modernised vessel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCf1hXs8Vfg

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 Shapos10

dino00 and Big_Gazza like this post

The-thing-next-door

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Post n°343

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

The-thing-next-door Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:41 am

Why not 16 kh35s or the slanted Oniks launchers, there is clearly space.

And the gun is a little small, the Gorshkovs 130 would probably have fit.

Otherwise it is looking good. Now if they could just do something similar to the Saryach class vessels in inventory and complete the planned Gorshkovs they would have enough frigates and could move on to destroyers and missile cruisers.

PapaDragon

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Post n°344

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am

LMFS wrote:The Shaposhnikov starts sea trials, we have the first images of the modernised vessel

Just like that? Damn, half the stuff was missing just a month ago, there's definitely a lot of things I don't know about shipbuilding process

Anyway, looking good thumbsup

Now send in the next one

The-thing-next-door wrote:Why not 16 kh35s or the slanted Oniks launchers, there is clearly space.

And the gun is a little small, the Gorshkovs 130 would probably have fit.

Upgrade was about making it comparable with current generation of weapons, Udaloi's original missiles are no longer in production

16 UKSK are the main event, Urans are just something that they installed because there was empty space available

Original gun was also 100mm, it was simply replaced with current model, installing oversized gun would have taken another year probably more and it would offer nothing in return

Slanted Onyx doesn't exist

The-thing-next-door wrote:Otherwise it is looking good. Now if they could just do something similar to the Saryach class vessels in inventory and complete the planned Gorshkovs they would have enough frigates and could move on to destroyers and missile cruisers.

Sarych/Sovremenny is getting phased out, one is already a museum ship

dino00 likes this post

Hole

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Post n°345

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Hole Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:38 am

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 10-88110

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 1155m_10

Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 14 1155m_11

Isos

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Post n°346

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Isos Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:32 am

In terms of space those tor launchers could have been also modified with VLS and increase by 3 or 4 times the numbers carried on the the front. With the new missile that is 2 times smaller they could then multiply by 2 the number carried.

The back tor seems to keep the old radar.

And I agree 16 uran would be better. 8 is not a threat for modern ships carrying decebt AD systems. Abd with 16 of them they can destroy more supply vessels without spending kalibr on them.

PapaDragon

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Post n°347

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

PapaDragon Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:27 am

Isos wrote:...And I agree 16 uran would be better. 8 is not a threat for modern ships carrying decebt AD systems. Abd with 16 of them they can destroy more supply vessels without spending kalibr on them.

If 8 Urans can't do the job then neither will 16

These are bonus features, UKSK is the thing that would be used to fight ships not Urans

Isos

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Post n°348

Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

Isos Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:51 am

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...And I agree 16 uran would be better. 8 is not a threat for modern ships carrying decebt AD systems. Abd with 16 of them they can destroy more supply vessels without spending kalibr on them.

If 8 Urans can't do the job then neither will 16

These are bonus features, UKSK is the thing that would be used to fight ships not Urans

16 allows an overwhelming attack against a well armed vessel or they allow to destroy more secondary ships.

UKSK carry many different missiles like anti sub, land attack or anti ship. The 16 cells will be split for all of them so the urans allow anti ship attack while the uksk carries the land attack. Not all operation need 16 Zirkon.