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Arrowhttp://russianforces.org/blog/2019/11/russia_shows_avangard_system_t.shtml
Russia wants to extend START
Russia wants to extend START
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42 posters
Avangard hypersonic glide vehicle:
Arrow- Posts : 3449
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GarryB- Posts : 40518
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Russia wants to extend START
Of course they do... any rational sensible country would rather spend money on useful things rather than weapons to destroy mankind... the US is not a rational sensible country.
Arrow- Posts : 3449
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Weapon spending drives a technical revolution. And here we have materials resistant to high temperatures, miniature reactors, scramjet engines. This is all technological development useful for humanity. So if it were not for the US to leave the ABM treaty, there would be no Avangard, Burevestnik Poseidon
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4890
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archangelski wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:Source for that picture? Doesn't look like any kind of HGV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-5UEq32-wc&feature=emb_logo
Ah, tyvm.
If this is associated with Avangard it would be an internal structural element, minus the heat shield and aerodynamic control surfaces etc. Yeah, I can see it now, but its till little more than a boilerplate.
George1- Posts : 18514
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MOSCOW, December 16. /TASS/. The first regiment equipped with the Avangard missile system with the hypersonic glide vehicle will assume combat duty at the Dombarovskaya Rocket Division in the Orenburg region by the end of 2019, Commander of the Russian Strategic Missile Forces (RVSN) Colonel-General Sergey Karakaev told the Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star) newspaper.
https://tass.com/defense/1099595
https://tass.com/defense/1099595
GarryB- Posts : 40518
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Weapon spending drives a technical revolution. And here we have materials resistant to high temperatures, miniature reactors, scramjet engines. This is all technological development useful for humanity. So if it were not for the US to leave the ABM treaty, there would be no Avangard, Burevestnik Poseidon
Did Boeing or General Dynamics tell you to say that?
If weapon spending generates accidental benefits in other more peaceful and more useful areas... imagine what spending directly on peaceful and useful technologies could achieve?
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4890
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If the US had not invaded Iraq under fabricated pretenses and killed 1M people, all of those Iraqi grave-diggers undertakers would have suffered economically...
Idiot troll. Pls go away and spare us your inane stupidity.
Idiot troll. Pls go away and spare us your inane stupidity.
thegopnik- Posts : 1825
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When another forum gets Russian related hype before this forum XD.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209492790507397122
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12268217@egNews
https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2019/12/24/819588-novoi-raketi
Main takeaways that are the most important parts.
1. New HGV after avangard under development.
2. VLS's that hold kaliber missiles would be to hold Zircons? Does anyone have a reference size to the VLS in terms of diameter and length just to ballpark the size of the Zircon?
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209492790507397122
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12268217@egNews
https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2019/12/24/819588-novoi-raketi
Main takeaways that are the most important parts.
1. New HGV after avangard under development.
2. VLS's that hold kaliber missiles would be to hold Zircons? Does anyone have a reference size to the VLS in terms of diameter and length just to ballpark the size of the Zircon?
dino00- Posts : 1677
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thegopnik wrote:When another forum gets Russian related hype before this forum XD.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209492790507397122
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12268217@egNews
https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2019/12/24/819588-novoi-raketi
Main takeaways that are the most important parts.
1. New HGV after avangard under development.
2. VLS's that hold kaliber missiles would be to hold Zircons? Does anyone have a reference size to the VLS in terms of diameter and length just to ballpark the size of the Zircon?
If it is a further hgv development is great news
GarryB- Posts : 40518
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2. VLS's that hold kaliber missiles would be to hold Zircons? Does anyone have a reference size to the VLS in terms of diameter and length just to ballpark the size of the Zircon?
Zircon... like Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos and Club and Kalibr were designed to fit the UKSK launcher tube from the outset... that was the intention.
They are making an enlarged UKSK-M launch system which we suspect is intended to include SAMs as well as other missiles and be a more universal launcher... with a size increase perhaps to allow S-500 missiles to be carried too.
It is possible that UKSK is for new (Corvettes and frigates and conventional subs), while UKSK-M might be for new (destroyers, cruisers, carriers and nuke subs).
It has already been stated that corvettes and frigates will get Zircon too so it is clear it fits in the UKSK launcher.
And by the way I think it is a bit insulting to suggest that the Russian Navy would standardise all their new missiles on one launcher type and then develop a new and capable missile that doesn't fit its new standard launcher...
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4890
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It's a certain fact that Russian HGV R&D isn't going to stop with Avanguard. Russia needs to step on the gas and leave the Murikkkanz in the dust in strategic weapons that nullify ABM defense. These feckless b'stards only understand raw power and a knife at the throat. Nothing else with compel them to pay respect to others and agree to observe spheres of influence.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4890
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GarryB wrote:2. VLS's that hold kaliber missiles would be to hold Zircons? Does anyone have a reference size to the VLS in terms of diameter and length just to ballpark the size of the Zircon?
Zircon... like Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos and Club and Kalibr were designed to fit the UKSK launcher tube from the outset... that was the intention.
They are making an enlarged UKSK-M launch system which we suspect is intended to include SAMs as well as other missiles and be a more universal launcher... with a size increase perhaps to allow S-500 missiles to be carried too.
It is possible that UKSK is for new (Corvettes and frigates and conventional subs), while UKSK-M might be for new (destroyers, cruisers, carriers and nuke subs).
It has already been stated that corvettes and frigates will get Zircon too so it is clear it fits in the UKSK launcher.
And by the way I think it is a bit insulting to suggest that the Russian Navy would standardise all their new missiles on one launcher type and then develop a new and capable missile that doesn't fit its new standard launcher...
That said, I can well foresee that the Ruskies will develop heavy versions of their strike weapons to fit an upgraded launch system like UKSK-M. It simply makes so much sense.
thegopnik- Posts : 1825
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Sorry guys do not know if this is considered old news or not but there are plans for ground launched zircons as well included in those articles.
"In his speech, Putin for the first time confirmed Kommersant’s information on the development of a medium-range hypersonic ground-based missile based on the 3M22 Zircon rocket (developed by NPO Mashinostroeniya), which was originally created in the ship version. A person in industry explained this to Vedomosti that the Zircon rocket would be launched from the same launchers that are used for Caliber missiles (their adaptation to ground launch is also on the list of Russian response measures), which can significantly reduce costs for research and development work. The United States has already carried out demonstrative tests of medium-range missiles twice, the Vedomosti interlocutor recalls, while Russia has not yet shown its achievements - but the work itself is ongoing and will be completed without fail."
"In his speech, Putin for the first time confirmed Kommersant’s information on the development of a medium-range hypersonic ground-based missile based on the 3M22 Zircon rocket (developed by NPO Mashinostroeniya), which was originally created in the ship version. A person in industry explained this to Vedomosti that the Zircon rocket would be launched from the same launchers that are used for Caliber missiles (their adaptation to ground launch is also on the list of Russian response measures), which can significantly reduce costs for research and development work. The United States has already carried out demonstrative tests of medium-range missiles twice, the Vedomosti interlocutor recalls, while Russia has not yet shown its achievements - but the work itself is ongoing and will be completed without fail."
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
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It's not news, it's default setting
Every single ship missile they are using can be launched from sea, land or air
They always develop ship version first because making land and air versions afterwards is easy
It was always part of the plan, there was no scenario in which Zircon stays exclusively ship borne missile
GarryB- Posts : 40518
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[That said, I can well foresee that the Ruskies will develop heavy versions of their strike weapons to fit an upgraded launch system like UKSK-M. It simply makes so much sense.
Well once they have the UKSK-M launcher that is supposed to be able to take all their attack missiles and their SAM (defense) missiles, then the tube size will be established and very simply they will have standard sizes... like those Russian dolls... there are going to to missiles whose performance requirements will fill those tubes to the max and the next size down needs to allow four to be fitted in to each tube and then four into each of those for the different requirement levels.
Right now most of the missiles carried in the UKSK launch tubes were designed to be fired from a torpedo tube and are 533mm calibre, while the Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos were designed to be about 750mm calibre so for both types to fit the tube needs to be bigger than 750mm for the bigger missiles so when the smaller missiles like the Klubs and Kalibres and the 91ER missiles are loaded there is a lot of empty wasted space.
Now they could make those missiles bigger to fit those tubes to get extra range and payload and possibly even speed, but they were making the UKSK-M launch system for the S-500 which means the tube size has probably changed anyway.
Now, with the UKSK-M launch tubes they will have the dimensions of their full sized missiles and the missiles they need to fit four of or 16 of inside the tube, so now they can look at increased sized missiles... all the current and new missiles will remain in production because they can still use them in torpedo tubes on other vessels, but increased size variants of most of their missiles to more efficiently use the available space make a lot of sense and improve the performance of existing systems... the 2,500km land attack Kalibre can now have a 5,000km range... it will be heavier but there is room and no issue with weight to be honest...
It's not news, it's default setting
I would agree, though the earlier heavy anti ship missiles were too big for most aircraft to carry them, the new missiles are getting better and better flight performance while getting lighter and smaller.
Granit is huge... 7 tons, but Moskit is 4.5 tons and Onyx is 2.5 tons... and I would expect Zircon to be in the 2-3 ton weight range too.
The Kh-22M is about 6 tons, but only strategic aircraft could carry those... new reduced weight Brahmos and Zircon will probably be able to be carried by tactical aircraft like Flankers and Fulcrums...
The missiles that used to be anti ship only are now anti ship and land attack... giving the modern navy capabilities it has never had before.
dino00- Posts : 1677
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The first Avangard missile regiment took up combat duty
Earlier it was reported that the regiment in the Dombarovsk missile division will be the first to receive this complex
"The Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation, Army General Sergei Shoigu, reported to Russian President Vladimir Putin on the deployment of the first missile regiment armed with the latest strategic missile system with the Avangard hypersonic planning winged unit from 10:00 Moscow time December 27, 2019," the statement says message.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7436431
Earlier it was reported that the regiment in the Dombarovsk missile division will be the first to receive this complex
"The Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation, Army General Sergei Shoigu, reported to Russian President Vladimir Putin on the deployment of the first missile regiment armed with the latest strategic missile system with the Avangard hypersonic planning winged unit from 10:00 Moscow time December 27, 2019," the statement says message.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7436431
George1- Posts : 18514
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On the part of bmpd, we recall that the end of 2019 was announced as a deadline for the first missile regiment with intercontinental ballistic missiles UR-100 UTX equipped with the Avangard hypersonic winged warhead. The missile regiment is part of the 13th missile Orenburg Red Banner Division of the 31st Missile Army of Strategic Missile Forces in Yasnoy (Dombarovsky, Orenburg Region).
It was reported that at the end of 2019, in the regiment will be put on combat duty the first two Avangard missile systems with UR-100N UTTH missiles deployed in silo launchers of ballistic missiles R-36M2. Subsequently, the number of deployed complexes in the regiment should be brought up to a staff of six.
It is known that the current State armament program for 2018-2017 provides for the deployment of two missile regiments with Avangard complexes as part of the 13th Missile Division until 2027 (a total of 12 deployed UR-100N UTTH missiles).
Presumably, “Avangard” combat equipment equipped (both for test launches and for commenced combat deployment) UR-100N UTTX missiles from among 30 missiles type, received by the Russian side in 2002-2004 from storage at Ukraine and until recently in storage in Russia.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3889729.html
owais.usmani- Posts : 1825
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http://russianforces.org/blog/2020/01/life_extension_for_ur-100nutth.shtml
The ministry of defense asked NPOmash to extend the service life of the UR-100NUTTH/SS-19 missiles, so they could be used as launchers in the Avangard system.
The report says that the last extension, to 36 years, was done in May 2019, but as far as I can tell, this was done in 2014. There were no life-extension reports after that (which doesn't mean that it hasn't been done, though).
In any event, the previous extension was probably quite different from the upcoming one - it was about service life of missiles that have been fueled and deployed. The ones that will be used for Avangard are those 30 "dry" missiles received from Ukraine some time ago. An extension would still be necessary, of course, and my guess is that these missiles have quite a few years in them.
GarryB- Posts : 40518
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The codename for the SS-19 for civilian satellite launch was ROKOT I think and they were talking about making all Russian components so they can produce some more for themselves... it is apparently a solid reliable and accurate rocket that is popular.
I don't think they want to produce brand new ones... just enable the continued use of existing ones safely.
I don't think they want to produce brand new ones... just enable the continued use of existing ones safely.
Austin- Posts : 7617
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More Details on Avangrad Program.
Minimum Range 6000 km , Maximum Range 11,000 km ( Can we guess the glide range of the HGV , Considering the Avangrad ICBM is a 2 stage missile plus HGV ? )
Avangrad at 4:19
https://twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/status/1209574930918133760
https://mobile.twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/status/1230605924378857472
https://mobile.twitter.com/EllemanIISS/status/1228767785528025093
Minimum Range 6000 km , Maximum Range 11,000 km ( Can we guess the glide range of the HGV , Considering the Avangrad ICBM is a 2 stage missile plus HGV ? )
Avangrad at 4:19
https://twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/status/1209574930918133760
https://mobile.twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/status/1230605924378857472
https://mobile.twitter.com/EllemanIISS/status/1228767785528025093
GarryB- Posts : 40518
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It's not news, it's default setting
Every single ship missile they are using can be launched from sea, land or air
They always develop ship version first because making land and air versions afterwards is easy
It was always part of the plan, there was no scenario in which Zircon stays exclusively ship borne missile
Not strictly true.... most big heavy ship based and air carried anti ship missiles don't have land launched equivelants because any surface launched weapon would be bound by the INF treaty and limited to less than 500km flight range.
When Zircon was being developed there was no intention of a land based version because its enormous speed means long range is a bonus so to limit max range they would need to dramatically change the design... perhaps triple or quadruple the warhead weight for instance.
Also most of their anti ship missiles were anti ship only... Granit and Vulcan etc etc were anti ship only, but with the post cold war I push for multirole ships they realised they needed multirole missiles too so they expanded their anti ship missile range to include land attack... they joint developed the Brahmos with India which meant they could joint fund the solution of guidance and seekers that could be used against land targets and ships at sea and they adapted those systems to their Onyx base missile that the Brahmos and Yakhont are designed from, and also their other missiles.
They also developed land attack cruise missiles too because previously their granat cruise missile had a CEP of about 200m so a nuke warhead was the only solution for land attack or anti port use, but both their airforce (Kh-101/2) and navy (Calibr) developed precision targeting capability for their land attack missiles and also adapted their sea based anti ship missiles to land attack too.
Note their previous multifunction air to surface missiles were weapons like the Kh-25 where they came in different models with different seeker heads, so the missiles were not multifunction at all, but the missiles were standardised and seekers were available for different targets or attack methods.
New missiles will likely combine a few seeker options together to become more multifunction like Hermes... which is probably why it is taking so long.
George1- Posts : 18514
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Work on Russia’s Avangard hypersonic missile continued for over 30 years — designer
The weapon was developed in response to the US Strategic Defense Initiative
MOSCOW, October 6. /TASS/. The Research and Production Association of Machine-Building (now part of Tactical Missiles Corporation) started work on the Avangard hypersonic missile system in 1985 in response to the US Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), Company Honorary CEO and Honorary Chief Designer Gerbert Yefremov told TASS on Tuesday.
"After all-embracing considerations, the proposal of the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building began to be implemented in 1985," he specified, responding to a question about how and when the work on the Avangard hypersonic missile system proceeded.
The US anti-ballistic missile defense coupled with massively deployed nuclear-tipped strike missiles reinforces the American combat potential. The simultaneous possession of the capabilities for delivering a pre-emptive massive nuclear strike and the systems for intercepting the few remaining enemy missiles becomes destabilizing and inflames tensions in the world, Yefremov said.
"I can say that [then-US President Ronald] Reagan’s SDI alarmed the leadership of the Soviet Union," he recalled.
The Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and the USSR Council of Ministers issued a resolution, instructing defense enterprises to put forward proposals on measures in response to the US SDI program, the chief designer said.
"I, being the newly appointed chief designer of the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building, using the vast experience of previous R&D work, sent a proposal on practically implementing a very difficult task of making the classical ABM defense system intended for countering ballistic missiles useless," he recalled.
"For this purpose, it was necessary to create a flying vehicle moving at great speeds in the atmosphere and making various maneuvers," Yefremov noted.
After comprehensive considerations, the proposal by the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building began to be implemented in 1985, he said.
"The experimental testing, both ground, bench and flight tests, using UR-100N UTTKh missiles, continued until the early 2000s. Further practical trials that already involved a combat system proceeded under the direct control of President [Vladimir] Putin after the US withdrew from the ABM Treaty in 2002," the chief designer said.
Award
Russian President Putin announced on September 19, Russia’s Gunsmith Day, the conferring of the Order of St. Andrew the Apostle the First-Called with swords on Yefremov for developing the Avangard hypersonic missile system.
As the Russian president recalled during his talk with Yefremov at the time, large-scale work had been launched in 2004 to implement the chief designer’s ideas. A final test-launch was carried out in December 2018. Therefore, all the trials were successfully completed. The first strategic missile regiment armed with Avangard hypersonic missile systems went on combat duty in December 2019.
In 1972, the US and the USSR signed the Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty and simultaneously the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. However, in March 1983, US President Ronald Reagan announced the Strategic Defense Initiative program aimed at effectively intercepting even a full-scale Soviet missile attack.
The Avangard is a strategic intercontinental ballistic missile system equipped with a hypersonic boost-glide vehicle. According to open sources, the breakthrough weapon was developed by the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building (the town of Reutov in the Moscow Region) and was tested from 2004. The boost-glide vehicle is capable of flying at over 20 times the speed of sound in the dense layers of the atmosphere, maneuvering by its flight path and its altitude and breaching any anti-missile defense.
https://tass.com/defense/1209209
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
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So by the time SDI should have been completing development and getting introduced first Avangard was already flying?
Talk about ironic...
owais.usmani- Posts : 1825
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https://ria.ru/20201013/avangard--1579544373.html
By the end of the year, the Orenburg Strategic Missile Forces will prepare the infrastructure for the deployment of two more missiles of the Avangard complex, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on Tuesday .
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lancelot- Posts : 3147
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I do not get the idea of keeping the UR-100N rocket in service.
I mean, Chelomei would likely approve, but how about reducing the amount of systems in use to reduce costs?
I mean, Chelomei would likely approve, but how about reducing the amount of systems in use to reduce costs?