Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

Ford one was year late, it's the first of a new class of AC when Russia lays down it's first AC we will see how mnay delays they have.

The Zumwalt where to be built in three years each they are in time, the LCS are also on time.

Do not lie because is literally what you are doing.

He is lying? but are you being honest?

I mean the worlds last superpower spending 700 billion dollars a year on attack... oops, sorry defence... and the sky is falling because Russia doesn't get an unimportant ship out on schedule, but when the best navy in the world, of the worlds only super power, and the best ship makers in the world, with no sanctions, money fucking thrown at them, no supplier problems... they haven't had to set up new production facilities in another country because a country let them down, or jumped ship... they are having problems and delays with the most critical ship design in their inventory... cut the shit talk.

Your Whine cellar must be enormous, but it only contains Russian Whine doesn't it?

Oh to be fair you do give some credit where it is due, but the US never seems to do any wrong...

GarryB wrote:

Ford one was year late, it's the first of a new class of AC when Russia lays down it's first AC we will see how mnay delays they have.

The Zumwalt where to be built in three years each they are in time, the LCS are also on time.

Do not lie because is literally what you are doing.

He is lying? but are you being honest?

I mean the worlds last superpower spending 700 billion dollars a year on attack... oops, sorry defence... and the sky is falling because Russia doesn't get an unimportant ship out on schedule, but when the best navy in the world, of the worlds only super power, and the best ship makers in the world, with no sanctions, money fucking thrown at them, no supplier problems... they haven't had to set up new production facilities in another country because a country let them down, or jumped ship... they are having problems and delays with the most critical ship design in their inventory... cut the shit talk.

Your Whine cellar must be enormous, but it only contains Russian Whine doesn't it?

Oh to be fair you do give some credit where it is due, but the US never seems to do any wrong...

"Ford, Zumwalt, LCS are not build in time."

Yes he is lying, okay sorry he was kinda truthful ford was about a year and half late, still lying on everything else.

Was I saying the LCS were worth it? no I wasn't I aid despite them being stupid ships they are being made on time.



"Oh to be fair you do give some credit where it is due, but the US never seems to do any wrong..."

I believe I just said the LCS where stupid ships but I am saying the US never does anything wrong? I have said Russia is better then the US in areas and more... Garry mouth shut walk the other way, I really don't like dealing you how you like to try and twist words to fit your narrative. I am not wrong in what you said, I dont need to deal with some keyboard warrior who is trying to make it seem like he is right by twisting things.

I don't mind a fair discussion but Garry I cannot have one with you, you are to blinded by your fanboyism, it's why I virtually ignore you now.

Was I saying the LCS were worth it? no I wasn't I aid despite them being stupid ships they are being made on time.

So what you are saying is that the LCS was made on time but was a fucking waste of time and money...

Perhaps maybe if they had reevaluated the design half way through and changed the basic plans... it would have caused huge delays and probably horrendous price increases but at least they would have gotten a ship that was more useful... Hmmm think about that for a minute...

I believe I just said the LCS where stupid ships but I am saying the US never does anything wrong?

I don't see you endlessly posting on US threads about how useless the LCS is and how, while it is in service it is still of no use...

I have said Russia is better then the US in areas and more... Garry mouth shut walk the other way, I really don't like dealing you how you like to try and twist words to fit your narrative. I am not wrong in what you said, I dont need to deal with some keyboard warrior who is trying to make it seem like he is right by twisting things.

You claim to be fair and consistent and you are not. You expect the Russian Navy and Russian shipyards to be better and more efficient than the US navy and shipyards... when they fuck up... you don't say a word, when some report about a delay comes up... even when it is regarding a totally different ship at least one time, you pop up and whinge about the fall of the Russian navy and how the Russian shipyards can't build ships anymore.

I don't mind a fair discussion but Garry I cannot have one with you, you are to blinded by your fanboyism, it's why I virtually ignore you now.

Wish I could do the same. As long as you follow instructions to follow the rules I give you as a mod, you can ignore me all you like, but I am not going to ignore your moaning that the Russians navy is in crisis and needs immediate attention... it is moving in a positive direction and is getting better... and ultimately in 15-20 years is going to be enormously important in driving and supporting the growing Russian economy, but for now it is really not that important... they can take their time getting things right now with the smaller boats and long range anti ship missiles.

I guess that is what offends you... they don't see the world the same way the US does and does not think the same way the US does... if they have a big powerful navy they need 100K ton super carriers... because that is what the US has and they do everything the right way...

Russia could have done the same with the Gren and the Gorshkov. Declare them fit and solve the problems later. But they don´t do that anymore.

Call the western method the Microsoft method of development... leave the last testing cycle to the first customers... because it will keep evolving until it is replaced... and it will keep needing patches and fixes until it is obsolete (code for does not sell well anymore, or you have other things to sell in its place and they are not selling well enough).

I post when there is time, The Russians can make ships just slow as hell and I have said they need to improve that, guys like you, however, don't want to address the problems and pretend everything is peachy.

REally I have said some Russians designs are great ships, and I have given credit to those ships. I do also say when there is a problem again another lie on your part and more trying to twist the narrative.

I don't have free time for that, I also happen to think Western fanboys are worse in most cases then Russian ones.

I'll give you this credit Garry you aren't the worst Russian fanboy I have ever seen.

I do not expect the russians to match the US but, the delays and problems they have aren't excusable. AGAIN you are twisting my words, can I report your ass over this? you have done this three times so far.

There is reasonable and then there is unreasonable, I highest suggest you learn the difference.



God all mghty.....I have SAID dozens of times HERE Russia doesn't NEED a 100k ton supercarrier, that they would do fine with a Kuz sized carrier and four of them. AGAIN TWISTING words.

You see I was taught to address problems not let them grow and get out of hand and that's the problem russia's shipbuilding industry is having they let these problems grow and grow and do not handle them.

You prefer to turn a blind eye.

NOW if you really wanna continue this chat with me you can message me on here, this board isn't for me and you going at eachother.

The Russians can make ships just slow as hell and I have said they need to improve that, guys like you, however, don't want to address the problems and pretend everything is peachy.

But you have not said why they need to pump out ships faster... do you think spending 10 times more on their navy and getting lots of ships in service now will solve their problems?

What would they even do with 20 new frigates right now?

Probably retire a couple of older ships and upgrade some other ones.

So really the cost of building 20 new frigates is rather hard to justify...

REally I have said some Russians designs are great ships, and I have given credit to those ships. I do also say when there is a problem again another lie on your part and more trying to twist the narrative.

I keep telling you and you keep ignoring me... what is this fixation you have with wanting Russia to be pumping out ships like China? Or the US?

Russia is not China and is not the US.

China is pumping out ships because it realises that sooner or later it is going to be facing the US Navy in the Pacific so they need a decent naval force to stand up to that.

Russia knows fighting the US is suicide for both parties and a big navy could bankrupt them quicker than the big military is bankrupting the US...

I'll give you this credit Garry you aren't the worst Russian fanboy I have ever seen.

And I am adult enough to give you credit for being mature and not petty or abusive. The fact that you come here to an "enemy" web forum shows you at least have an interest to see what other people might think... something the BBC and CNN and Fox News are afraid of... you are only allowed to see both sides of situations that they want you to see.

I do not expect the russians to match the US but, the delays and problems they have aren't excusable. AGAIN you are twisting my words, can I report your ass over this? you have done this three times so far.

Words are open to interpretation... you call it twisting... that suggests I am distorting the meaning into something else... I would suggest ambiguity is more the issue and instead of bitching that I am distorting your words why don't you just rephrase what you meant to say so I can understand better what you were trying to say.

English is a complex language and different words have very similar meanings but often have slightly different slants of meanings at the same time.

There is reasonable and then there is unreasonable, I highest suggest you learn the difference.

But that is the problem... reasonable is subjective, not objective. You can say 5 years is too long to develop a brand new multifunction ship class... and that is your opinion. When that ship is not urgently needed and in fact has become surplus to immediate needs during the period of its development and construction it might suddenly become reasonable because it is not worth the money to rapidly finish it... money that could be used on something that is needed.

You see I was taught to address problems not let them grow and get out of hand and that's the problem russia's shipbuilding industry is having they let these problems grow and grow and do not handle them.

You prefer to turn a blind eye.

The Ivan Gren was in one shipyard on one slipway... it is not the reason they don't have 2-3 destroyers and 5-10 frigates in service right now... I don't understand why you think it is even important enough to do something about...

NOW if you really wanna continue this chat with me you can message me on here, this board isn't for me and you going at eachother.

Well even if this discussion goes to PM with you and me, I will be having this discussion with all the other people who think the RuN has gone to the dogs because this one ship class has had a few problems.

BTW I don't remember anyone suggesting the management at the shipyard that made the LCS should be shot, or even fired... hell when British Frigates can't operate in the Med in summer because the sea water is not cold enough to cool its systems there are plenty of problems to go around...

To put it in perspective the Gorshkov is a frigate.... that equates to the Krivak class during the cold war... they didn't have a huge number of those vessels.

They might end up with a dozen or so, but if they are making 20 of anything then a destroyer class would be more useful along with say 8 cruisers and two new carriers...

Hole wrote:Couldn´t resist: according to a new report, the Ford will be operational in 2022, not 2019. All delays together: six years.

Now some people will say: "It´s a carrier, not a small landing ship." Yup. But California, Texas and New York are still parts of Amiland. The Yard never stopped producing anything for ten years and has never done anyting else than building carriers for the last 70 or 80 years.

That is major sea trails.....not construction and it won't last until 2022.

Do I got to correct you every time?

Hole wrote:The won´t build 20. Just the six, that are already on the building ways. The f...ing engine debacle costed four years. Now the Navy wants something bigger, it seems.

I hope the do it with the new ship like they did with the Karakurts, order 18+ from three or four yards.

Does someone know where the Gren will go? Black Sea?

It will most likely serve in the BSF yes, officially it is listed has going to that fleet, it will serve has a cargo ship for awhile really.

verkhoturye51 wrote:And here's how the second ship looks like.

[img]http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2018/february/project_11711_lst_Petr_Morgunov.jpg[

To be put on water in 2/2 of this month and commissioned later this year.

3 years to build it sounds pretty normal. The first was clearly the problem and not the class itself. Maybe they could redesign it with more weapons and replace all the other older ships with this.

This redesigning is the reason why Russians have only 15 % of their fleet at the sea at any time, while easy-to-maintain standarized US navy has 50 %.

One 100mm gun and 2 MRL on the deck isn't going to change the disponibility of the ship. Landing forces need artillery support to clean the beach.

US have the money to maintain them.

This redesigning is the reason why Russians have only 15 % of their fleet at the sea at any time, while easy-to-maintain standarized US navy has 50 %.

Of course, the Russians have 85% of their fleet in maintainence... nothing to do with the US having a global empire to maintain, while the Russian Navy operating mostly coastal except for a few anti piracy operations and a few ships in the med chasing Brit subs around the place...

And the 32 Krivaks... how long did they actually have 32 in service at one time... they started entering service in the early 1970s, but they also started decommissioning them in the 1990s... are there any even in service now? Maybe a handful... if that.

Comparing the capabilities of the old Krivaks with a modern version you could replace 32 with 16 easily... and enjoy an enormous increase in performance too.