Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

Agreed... no need to include that quote that showed all the photos just to reply a comment and a link.

Note I have not quoted either but you can understand what I am talking about?

ultimatewarrior wrote:

hoom wrote:Pics of display model for new version:
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11711-moderniz/

This is sort of like China's Type 071.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_071_amphibious_transport_dock

type 071 has three times the displacement of modified 11711 (25000 tons vs about 8000 tons), so they cannot really be compared...

The chinese type 071 however, while having similar size to the new russian LHD that should start to be build in Zaliv this May, carries only a few helicopters, also because China is also building the larger type 075 (around 40000 tons and 30 helicopters carried).

While looking similar they have different sizes, and of course they are built according to different design choices amd capabilities.

As we already discussed in this forum, the modified project
11711 is more similar to an Italian San Giorgio class.

The Russian Defense Ministry may order new large landing ships of the modernized project 11711 in addition to the two already laid down.

https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/vmf_rf_mozhet_zakazat_dopolnitelnye_bdk_modernizirovannogo_proekta_11711.html

George1 wrote:The Russian Defense Ministry may order new large landing ships of the modernized project 11711 in addition to the two already laid down.

https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/vmf_rf_mozhet_zakazat_dopolnitelnye_bdk_modernizirovannogo_proekta_11711.html

More like ''Russian Defense Ministry SHOULD and MUST order new large landing ships of the modernized project 11711 in addition to the two already laid down.''

Just my humble opinion...

PapaDragon wrote:

George1 wrote:The Russian Defense Ministry may order new large landing ships of the modernized project 11711 in addition to the two already laid down.

https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/vmf_rf_mozhet_zakazat_dopolnitelnye_bdk_modernizirovannogo_proekta_11711.html

More like ''Russian Defense Ministry SHOULD and MUST order new large landing ships of the modernized project 11711 in addition to the two already laid down.''

Just my humble opinion...

I totally agree. At least a couple of 11711M per fleet.

The only question is if Yantar could laid down and build more 11711M and some additional frigates at the same time...

By the way, since old ropucha and alligator LST have been very useful also but not only for the Syrian Express, probably a replacement for those would be useful too.

I mean a LST around 4000 tons, half of the size of the Modified 11711M.

The new 11711M, while having a smaller displacement, are probably even more useful than the Ivan Rogov class (8000tons vs 14000 tons).

Of course this smaller and cheaper LST is not the priority at the moment, and could be even built by a shipyard with no previous experience in military orders or one neglected for many years. As an example it could be the perfect first order for one of the shipyards in Nikolaev or in Kherson, once they reunite with Russia or with Novorossia...

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The only question is if Yantar could laid down and build more 11711M and some additional frigates at the same time...

There are other shipyards that can handle frigates, if it turns out that Yantar can build LSTs at satisfactory pace then they should load them with orders for LSTs

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:...By the way, since old ropucha and alligator LST have been very useful also but not only for the Syrian Express, probably a replacement for those would be useful too

11711M and new LHD are enough for dedicated military transports

Syria has proven that civilian vessels can handle military work on the chep so they should just purchase more RoRo ships to add to already existing fleet

They have postponed production of first 2 Mversion ships as technical documentation is not jet finished.

So I would be a more patient with big plans about new ships of this class or totally new class.

marat wrote:They have postponed production of first 2 Mversion ships as technical documentation is not jet finished.

So I would be a more patient with big plans about new ships of this class or totally new class.

They aren't making any other class so if these have delays there's no point starting anything new from scratch because it will be even slower

Isos wrote:

11711M and new LHD are enough for dedicated military transports

Syria has proven that civilian vessels can handle military work on the chep so they should just purchase more RoRo ships to add to already existing fleet

You are confusing three things here. Transport, helicopter carriers and landig ships.

One can't replace the others. Not in war time.

They need a good amount of ships that can land tanks on ground. Heli carriers are not suited for that and civilian transport are good to refuel a base.

Having two Ivan gren is not enough if they want to phase out the older landing ships. They need at least 20 of such ships because they have the islands in pacific to protect as well be able to send forces in kaliningrad in case of invasion and in the north in case of operation in Island or in northern countries. Even 20 ships is low and would be beter with 30 of them.

Civilian roro can't be used for military operation, only for transport of cargo to friendly bases.

They already propose this medium landing ship for export. 1600t with 300t of military cargo. Would be very good to mass produce it for their own needs. Ivan gren is build too slowly and is kinda a big beast. A medium ship to assist is necessary.

https://www.aoosk.ru/en/products/project-21810/

China navy protects islands in Pacific from Japan. No need Russian navy.

Isos wrote:

11711M and new LHD are enough for dedicated military transports

Syria has proven that civilian vessels can handle military work on the chep so they should just purchase more RoRo ships to add to already existing fleet

You are confusing three things here. Transport, helicopter carriers and landig ships.

One can't replace the others. Not in war time.

They need a good amount of ships that can land tanks on ground. Heli carriers are not suited for that and civilian transport are good to refuel a base.

Having two Ivan gren is not enough if they want to phase out the older landing ships. They need at least 20 of such ships because they have the islands in pacific to protect as well be able to send forces in kaliningrad in case of invasion and in the north in case of operation in Island or in northern countries. Even 20 ships is low and would be beter with 30 of them.

Civilian roro can't be used for military operation, only for transport of cargo to friendly bases.

They already propose this medium landing ship for export. 1600t with 300t of military cargo. Would be very good to mass produce it for their own needs. Ivan gren is build too slowly and is kinda a big beast. A medium ship to assist is necessary.

https://www.aoosk.ru/en/products/project-21810/

Exactly. It has been a very good and effective idea but they cannot replace landing ships with old civilian cargo in all of their roles.

And as I wrote above, the Ropuchka and alligators LST are quite long in the tooth and will be in the need of a replacement.

Very interesting the project 21810, even if it is a bit smaller than what I had in mind (something around double of project 21810 displacement, about 3300 tons full load (half of original Ivan gren).

The only problem is that at the moment It exists only as an export version with foreign engines...

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/surface-ships-ships-and-boats/21810/

Main propulsion plant

A two-shaft plant based on two 2,700 kW WARTSILA 8L26 diesel engines driving two fixed-pitch propellers.

Movement and facilities control is provided by automated main propulsion plant and facilities management systems.

Electrical power system consists of four MAN D2866 diesel generators with the nominal continuous rating of 300 kW each and one MAN D0824 emergency harbor diesel generator with the nominal continuous rating of 100 kW.

But yeah, amphibious and landing forces should be in my humble opinion a mix of large and smaller ships, probably with a helicopter carrier/LHD in each of the larger fleets, supported by at least a couple of modified 11711 and several medium/large landing ships around 2000/3500 tons plus several large hovercraft Zubr (more than 500tons) and some dyugon landing craft (280 tons)

We just got the (unsurprising) news that 11711M is put on ice indefinitely so all this talk of new "projects" is redundant at the moment

Isos wrote:

China navy protects islands in Pacific from Japan. No need Russian navy.

China can't protect its own islands let alone russian ones in the north of Japan.

Landing ships allow to bring air defences and tanks directly on the islands. They can even bring tools to create runways for fighters.

They need lot of landing ships and helicopter carrier are not a suitable replacement for their role.

China navy is far more powerful than Russian navy. 7 Type 055 destroyers are under construction. 1 aircraft carrier under construction. If Japan invades Russian islands bam China navy blow them out of the water. Quite literally.

PapaDragon wrote:
We just got the (unsurprising) news that 11711M is put on ice indefinitely so all this talk of new "projects" is redundant at the moment

Possibly because they have not finished designing the ship and all of the internal systems. So they could build up to a certain amount of the hull, but then they need to be sure of the internal design...

A smaller LST should not be that complicated however.

Too bad that the 1600 tons project 21810 has been designed with foreign engines and generators. Are there Russian engines of that size currently in production? I believe the smallest from Kolomna is about 5500 shp, and the ones from Zvezda have different characteristics (and they have already delays in building them for karakurts...)

We just got the (unsurprising) news that 11711M is put on ice indefinitely so all this talk of new "projects" is redundant at the moment

They are revising the design... it would be pretty stupid to bowl on and make it anyway and hope the changes that need to be made don't mean the ships need to be completely rebuilt... obviously not building them till the design is finished is the best way to prevent that.

The other projects they are talking about have different roles and are independent designs that don't need to wait for these ships to be completed before they can be started.

China navy is far more powerful than Russian navy. 7 Type 055 destroyers are under construction. 1 aircraft carrier under construction. If Japan invades Russian islands bam China navy blow them out of the water. Quite literally.

China would not get involved if Japan tried to take islands by force unless they were Chinese islands, and your delusions that ship numbers = power is amusing...

China should start using its military power shouldn't it... why does it take all this shit from the west?

Isos wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Possibly because they have not finished designing the ship and all of the internal systems. So they could build up to a certain amount of the hull, but then they need to be sure  of the internal design...

A smaller LST should not be that complicated however.

Too bad that the 1600 tons project 21810 has been designed with foreign engines and generators. Are there Russian engines of that size currently in production? I believe the smallest from Kolomna is about 5500 shp, and the ones from Zvezda have different characteristics (and they have already delays in building them for karakurts...)

They can design another ship. There is no weapon or radar ... to complicate the work. It's just an empty ship. A 1600t one should be build in 6 months.

Yeah,  it just needs a basic radar and some short range air defences, plus some small guns and possibly something for artillery support.

My only question is if there is any russian diesel engine of the desired characteristics for LST around 1600/ 2000 tons and or for LST around 3000/4000 tons (ivan gren is 6600 tons full load, probably it would be inefficient to use the same engine in a ship half the size (also because a LST does not need to go fast so it needs less power than a Corvette or frigate with the same displacement).

By the way, concerning the armament,

Apparently the 21810 was proposed with flamethrower or multiple rocket launcher system, it seems interesting....

Has this sistem any similarities to the one on the Buratino ТОS-1 Heavy Flamethrower System?

The Buratino has a 220mm 30-barrel (original system, Ob.634 or TOS-1M) or 24-barrel (Ob.634B or TOS-1A) multiple rocket launcher and thermobaric weapon.

Armament

-A-22 Ogon shipborne flame-thrower and incendiary system, including two MS-227P launchers with 140mm OF-45 fragmentation rockets (110 pcs.), 140mm ZZh-45 incendiary rockets (110 pcs.) or 122mm A-215 Grad-M shipborne multiple rocket launcher system, including two MS-73 launchers with 122mm M-21OF HE rockets (110 pcs.);

-two 30mm AK-630M automatic gun mounts (6,000 rounds) or two Palma shipborne automated artillery systems (6,000 rounds);

-a modified MR-123-02 (Bagira) fire control system for shipborne 30mm, 57mm, 76mm, 100mm AA artillery systems;

-eight Igla-1M MANPADS.

PapaDragon wrote:

Just my humble opinion...

Yeah, it just needs a basic radar and some short range air defences, plus some small guns and possibly something for artillery support.

You don't understand the Russian Navy...

They are not going to build hundreds of these things... why skimp and make them shitty useless bits of crap that are only useful when they are with much more powerful ships.

When you are designing a tank division you don't make the tanks as strong and well protected as possible and then make all their support vehicles out of tin foil.

These ships don't need to be Kirovs but being able to be a command ship, in many roles is something they could do as well depending on the size of the operation...

Based on their size they are not going to be an Ivan Rogov or Mistral replacement... they will probably just be helicopter carriers, so they will need to operate with landing ships that carry and deliver naval infantry troops and armour, but that is OK because sometimes you might only want helicopter support like in a natural disaster where lots of helicopters would be very useful as well as a command centre to manage rescue and transport operations.

A landing craft might be useful to carry trucks and armoured transport vehicles to get into difficult to reach places... even a few hovercraft might be useful too.

For military roles to support landings or even just recon deployment of special forces would be useful.

My only question is if there is any russian diesel engine of the desired characteristics for LST around 1600/ 2000 tons and or for LST around 3000/4000 tons (ivan gren is 6600 tons full load, probably it would be inefficient to use the same engine in a ship half the size (also because a LST does not need to go fast so it needs less power than a Corvette or frigate with the same displacement).

My comment would be they need to finalise what they expect the ship to be able to do and complete their design before they finalise the propulsion and armament, but I would expect they will want it to be able to hold its own in terms of defence capability... like a Corvette of Frigate. A destroyer or cruiser they would expect to not only defend itself but also assist defence of the group of ships they are operating with, so Redut S-350 rather than Redut S-400 and S-500 and S-350.

By the way, concerning the armament,

Apparently the 21810 was proposed with flamethrower or multiple rocket launcher system, it seems interesting....

Has this sistem any similarities to the one on the Buratino ТОS-1 Heavy Flamethrower System?

The Buratino has a 220mm 30-barrel (original system, Ob.634 or TOS-1M) or 24-barrel (Ob.634B or TOS-1A) multiple rocket launcher and thermobaric weapon.

The Buratino is an engineer weapon that is used primarily to clear minefields and also concealed enemy positions like bunkers and trenches, and would be an ideal weapon to deal with beach defences for a landing.

GarryB wrote:

We just got the (unsurprising) news that 11711M is put on ice indefinitely so all this talk of new "projects" is redundant at the moment

They are revising the design... it would be pretty stupid to bowl on and make it anyway and hope the changes that need to be made don't mean the ships need to be completely rebuilt... obviously not building them till the design is finished is the best way to prevent that.

The other projects they are talking about have different roles and are independent designs that don't need to wait for these ships to be completed before they can be started.

China navy is far more powerful than Russian navy. 7 Type 055 destroyers are under construction. 1 aircraft carrier under construction. If Japan invades Russian islands bam China navy blow them out of the water. Quite literally.

China would not get involved if Japan tried to take islands by force unless they were Chinese islands, and your delusions that ship numbers = power is amusing...

China should start using its military power shouldn't it... why does it take all this shit from the west?

China is looking for revenge of Japan slaughtering millions of Chinese civilians. If Japan makes a move on the Russian far east which Japan claims as Japanese land then BAM their ships get blown up by the powerful Chinese navy.

And China never got satisfaction from Japan regarding those terrible times, and they deserve more than a proper apology... what would be good if the Japanese education system told Japanese children honestly what was done in China in that period so they would grow up understanding why China is not their best buddy despite a lot of Japanese culture actually coming from China...

Building some destroyers and a new carrier is not enough to challenge the Japanese Navy however, though so any conflict in the next couple of years between Japan and Russia will likely not be directly involving China by her choice, though I am sure in most circumstances China will either favour Russia or remain neutral if they think Russia is at fault.

America didn't directly attack the Bear over Georgia and South Ossetia, and I rather expect they and Japan wont be interested in a direct military confrontation over islands in the possession of the Kuriles... especially now... in the 1990s they probably could have bought them for a few billion dollars in assistance, but since 2008 they have realised the international community is Americas bitch and cannot be relied upon to be fair, which was again further reinforced in 2014 regarding the Crimea, so they realise they need to assert their authority with their own force and have been building up their power in the region to defend it if necessary and when necessary.

That is why they need landing ships and helicopter carriers and cargo/troop transports... landing ships are specific and so are helicopter carriers... the new helicopter carriers they are planning at 25K tons or so will be both helicopter carriers and landing ships with armour and troops and an onboard hospital and command and control capacity, so the Ivan Gren upgrades just need to carry extra helicopters and a bit of armour, while troop transports could be civilian ships modified for the role or perhaps made into multirole vessels that could serve other purposes.

During peace time both could be used for natural disasters and support ops and general good will visits... most island nations don't have enough doctors or a lot of other resources... sending a helicopter carrier for a visit where the doctors can take a look at locals... the ships dentist can help with basic dental healthcare and the helicopters could transport a few things around the place... they could donate some solar panel technology and dig a few water wells around the place after using ground penetrating radar to find places suitable to drill... it shouldn't be too hard to win the locals over... in a few years time these people might consider stopping importing expensive diesel fuel to run generators and take up wind and solar generators instead... who are they going to buy from if you already installed some wind and solar generators?

Some people think you charge the highest price to make money, but really owning the market is how you make money... volume sales... when you make millions of solar panels and millions of solar panel controllers and rechargable batterys that go with them... that is both making good money and also helping people get off diesel... The high prices these islanders pay for diesel does not go into Russias pockets they are getting screwed by their colonial patriarchs... New Zealand or Australia or the US or Britain or France...

There are plans for further orders of pr. 1171 Mod II, reaching 16 units (4 for each of the fleets). Thus updating the entire fleet of LSTs (Ropucha and Alligator class)

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/238811.html

George1 wrote:There are plans for further orders of pr. 1171 Mod II, reaching 16 units (4 for each of the fleets). Thus updating the entire fleet of LSTs (Ropucha and Alligator class)

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/238811.html

Oh hell yeah, finally some naval news and good ones at that

16 of these would be perfection

Green 2 is just what the doctor ordered, combined with new LHD Russian Navy will be solving it's transport segment for decades to come

Isos wrote:...Some genius here said it was an outdated design because of helicopter carriers appearence... such ships can't be replaced by anything else. And 4 per fleet is still too low. They need another smaller class like the one I already share, 5 or 6 per fleet...

Probably Arrow

As for number of ships article says minimum number would be 16 while ideal is 22-24

So that's more than plenty especially in conjunction with LHDs

There's no need for small ones, their time has passed and Syria proved that small gigs can be handled with civilian ships no problem