Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

marat wrote:

Isos wrote:

That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

Hydroplanes? Seriously?

Not hydroplane but seaplane.

Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?

Because US and Nato don't operate such aircraft it means it's worthless ?

Btw Russia wants to equip its Gorshkovs with orlan drones with a catapult to launch them. A bigger cruiser will have something bigger so this idea is close to what they are doing. The good point is that it would be a maned aircraft rather than a stupid drone.

Isos wrote:

marat wrote:

Isos wrote:

That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

Hydroplanes? Seriously?

Not hydroplane but seaplane.

Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?

Because US and Nato don't operate such aircraft it means it's worthless ?

Btw Russia wants to equip its Gorshkovs with orlan drones with a catapult to launch them. A bigger cruiser will have something bigger so this idea is close to what they are doing. The good point is that it would be a maned aircraft rather than a stupid drone.

US and NATO don't operate them for a reason, it's obsolete and they have far superior stuff

And only reason Russia is stuck with Orlans on Gorshkovs is because they don't have anything better

US and NATO don't operate them for a reason, it's obsolete and they have far superior stuff

And only reason Russia is stuck with Orlans on Gorshkovs is because they don't have anything better

Yeah because US have carriers and hundreds of bases around the world here they can put P-8.

The rest of Nato forces depend on them. Take out US navy from the equation and they are fucked. Such aircraft with a small kh-35 would be a threat to most of nato ships as they are underarmed for the most.

Russia doesn't have neither the carriers, neither the bases and they clearly wish to sail around the world. Such aircraft would be helpful for them.

Isos wrote:.... Such aircraft with a small kh-35 would be a threat to most of nato ships as they are underarmed for the most.

Russia doesn't have neither the carriers, neither the bases and they clearly wish to sail around the world. Such aircraft would be helpful for them.

This weighs less than Kh-35 and are it's helpful for sightseeing tours in vacation resorts



Stop talking nonsense

I said a smaller kh-35. Kh-35 weights 500kg. A smaller one with smaller range and warhead would be 200kg.

You took the smallest one as your exemple but there are others that can carry 10 passengers and have a decent range. So it could instead carry a small antiship missile and a radar. A military version could use more powerfull engines and more fuel.

And even without weapons, add a radar to that plane and it can patrol and look for ships and transmit data back to its ship.

On helicipter carrier, a normal version with wheels could be used pretty easily and be vigger and faster.


For exemple : Cessna 208 Caravan



Empty weight 1,725 t

Max take off weight 3,31 t

Cargo 1 360 kg

Cruise speed 340km/h

Range. 1759 km/ 2 = 900km


Take off the seats and all the civilian equipment add a radar of 100kg, a fuel tank of 200-300kg to add range and you still have 900 kg for weapons.

Isos wrote:I said a smaller kh-35. Kh-35 weights 500kg. A smaller one with smaller range and warhead would be 200kg.

You took the smallest one as your exemple but there are others that can carry 10 passengers and have a decent range. So it could instead carry a small antiship missile and a radar. A military version could use more powerfull engines and more fuel.

And even without weapons, add a radar to that plane and it can patrol and look for ships and transmit data back to its ship.

On helicipter carrier, a normal version with wheels could be used pretty easily and be vigger and faster.


For exemple : Cessna 208 Caravan



Empty weight 1,725 t

Max take off weight 3,31 t

Cargo 1 360 kg

Cruise speed 340km/h

Range. 1759 km/ 2 = 900km


Take off the seats and all the civilian equipment add a radar of 100kg, a fuel tank of 200-300kg to add range and you still have 900 kg for weapons.

Brilliant idea that one


Looks like Russian developers are already on the job, here is concept art of next gen system with similar approach:

Actually the new model An-2 in a float plane variant would be interesting... it has very low stall speeds and a good payload and takeoff and landing performance...

But at the end of the day I would think a rigid airship would be even better in many ways.

Enormous space for radar antenna arrays... it could operate on a tether continuously... even attached to quite a small ship... the tether could include a fibre optic cable for extremely fast data transfer and could also include electrical power to run the radar and position keeping electric motors... and with some hydrogen fuel cells on board it can rapidly generate lifting gas or ballast water as needed.

You could develop a tether link that is modular and could be fitted to all new and upgraded Russian vessels so it could operate on its own or move between vessels depending upon need.

As mentioned with an airship 40-50m long the antenna array could be huge and superimposed... so you could have a variety of frequency range radar antenna built in to the airships structure, so like some land based radars they use they could have a range of radars that aircraft are simply not big enough to carry with an array size big enough to be rather more useful...

The Tu-142 has a 3km long cable antenna for ultra low frequency communications with Subs under water at reasonable depths... a problem is that it is most effective when it hangs vertically, which requires the aircraft to fly at very low speeds close to stall speed... and airship could easily have such antenna, and others besides...

Looks like Russian developers are already on the job, here is concept art of next gen system with similar approach:

Of course... it is the wests way or the highway... all alternative thought is ridiculed... I remember well British tank experts going on and on about the stupidity of the Soviets using smoothbore tank guns because they are inaccurate, or first mention of rocket propelled torpedoes, or indeed missiles fired through tank gun barrels... it was all doomed to fail because it wasn't the way the west did things... they had either tried and failed or had not even tried so there was no point, and the soviets even trying was proof of their stupidity and backwardness...

Should one day Russian Military start giving bags of feces to troops instead of food I am sure that quite a few people on this forum will be praising that move as revolutionary Russian development in the field of nutritional science...

Isos wrote:

marat wrote:

Isos wrote:

That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

Hydroplanes? Seriously?

Not hydroplane but seaplane.

Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?

Because US and Nato don't operate such aircraft it means it's worthless ?

Btw Russia wants to equip its Gorshkovs with orlan drones with a catapult to launch them. A bigger cruiser will have something bigger so this idea is close to what they are doing. The good point is that it would be a maned aircraft rather than a stupid drone.

Did i mentioned USA od NATO? Why RuNavy or Chinese or any other navy introduced such concept?

Because Russia was building only smaller ships until now. China is not doing anything new, its destroyers are normal and look like US ones. Nothing revolutionary and they are not an exemple at all.

No one else build big destroyers or cruisers. Japan and south korea have the f-35 for their helicopter carrier so they can patrol around with them. And they mainly use their navy around their country supported by their shore based patrol aircraft.

Russia plans to sail around the world where it has no land airbases to support the fleet. The small amount of helicopters its task forces will carry will be busy with US submarines. A small patrol aircraft can help look for ships and give mid course correction to missiles.

It's very good to have oniks and zirkon with 1000km range but if you don't know where the target is, their range is reduced to the 40km of the ship based radar.

You adapt to your situation. You don't just copy what others do.

Isos wrote:Because Russia was building only smaller ships until now. China is not doing anything new, its destroyers are normal and look like US ones. Nothing revolutionary and they are not an exemple at all.

No one else build big destroyers or cruisers. Japan and south korea have the f-35 for their helicopter carrier so they can patrol around with them. And they mainly use their navy around their country supported by their shore based patrol aircraft.

Russia plans to sail around the world where it has no land airbases to support the fleet. The small amount of helicopters its task forces will carry will be busy with US submarines. A small patrol aircraft can help look for ships and give mid course correction to missiles.

It's very good to have oniks and zirkon with 1000km range but if you don't know where the target is, their range is reduced to the 40km of the ship based radar.

You adapt to your situation. You don't just copy what others do.

Kirov is smaller ship? Or ship with hydroplane? Moscow Class was small as well?

Kirov is smaller ship? Or ship with hydroplane? Moscow Class was small as well?

It was build for USSR needs and they had plenty of airbases around the world and plenty of ships and subs and heli carriers to defend their task forces anywhere in the world.

Should one day Russian Military start giving bags of feces to troops instead of food I am sure that quite a few people on this forum will be praising that move as revolutionary Russian development in the field of nutritional science...

The Russians wont adopt MREs... that is American... I believe they are called Meals Rejected by Ethiopians...

The fact that you suggest the Russian military might hand out bags of shit instead of food shows more about you really.

The 2nd series Ivan Grens will have more powerful engines

Second Series of Project 11711 Landing Ships to Get Heavier Engines

Project 11711 landing ships of the second series, Vladimir Andreyev and Vasily Trushin will obtain more powerful engines because of larger dimensions of the ships, representatives of Yantar Shipyard told Mil.Press Today answering the corresponding request.

"Indeed, we currently consider changing of the powerplant as the ship’s dimensions have increased", reported the shipyard’s press office.

"To maintain required speed and, especially, to perform landing assault missions, the ships will most likely need stronger powerplants. Initial designing proves that it is possible. The engines may be of another type, though they will be commercially produced Russian-made plants", added the shipbuilders.

This will be finally announced when the project developer, Nevskoye Design Bureau completes the technical project and hands it over to the shipyard. "Arrangement of the main powerplant is stipulated by the design documentation and will be implemented in accordance with the requirements approved by the Russian Navy based on the results of the amendments of the ship’s technical project to the modernized hull", summed up the Yantar’s representatives.

An insider in Nevskoye Design Bureau confirmed this information, adding the project was to be completed at the turn of 2019-2020 or even earlier. As for him, Russian industry can produce any kinds of engines for this class of ships, though the trials and maturation of some new components may take some time.

Some english-language info on the new 'Cayman' export variant of the 2nd series of the Ivan Gren class.
It seems it will displace 8000 tons instead of 6000-7000 tons as the 2nd domestic series is quoted to be, and will carry a total of 12 helicopters; making it something of a helicopter carrier (albeit with limited deck-space).



http://mil.today/2019/Navy56/

Cayman Instead Ivan Gren: New Model of Landing Ship to Emerge at IMDS-2019

The model and characteristics of the new large-size landing ship codenamed Cayman will be for the first time presented at the International Maritime Defense Show 2019 (IMDS-2019), a representative of Nevskoe Design Bureau (member of United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC) told Mil.Press Today.

The question is the ship’s export version, specified the interviewee.

Cayman will displace somewhat 8,000 tons and be capable to carry Ka-52K helicopters.

"The new landing ship is an in-depth update of Project 11711. In fact, it’s a new ship with expanded functionality", an informed industry insider shared. "The export version has not been assigned a project number yet, though in terms of its features, the ship is an evolution of the Project 11711 second series".

Two ships of this type were keel-laid at Yantar Shipyard on April 23. They may be equipped with stronger powerplant. By the yearend, designers will complete amending technical documentation for the Project 11711 second series.

Another first-timer presented by Nevskoe Design Bureau will be an advanced aircraft carrier Lamantin (stands for ‘manatee’). Further, the bureau’s booth at the USC pavilion will demonstrate the already known export version of Project 11711E landing ship.

As compared to basic Project 11711, the second series’ landing ships will obtain deck-based attack helicopters Ka-52K Katran. Moreover, the superstructure shape has changed; dimensions and displacement have increased, too.

http://mil.today/2019/Navy60/

IMDS-2019: Nevskoe Bureau Showed Cayman Landing Ship

Showing up at the International Maritime Defense Show (INDS-2019), Nevskoe Design Bureau unveiled the model and characteristics of the export version of the new Russian large-size landing ship Cayman. It is based on the second series of Project 11711, reports Mil.Press Today from the event.

According to Aleksey Yukhnin, deputy director for shipbuilding and military cooperation at Nevskoe Design Bureau, Cayman is intended for taking onboard, sea transportation, and landing on an unprepared coast of troops and equipment during amphibious campaigns. The ship will transport troops, plant mine and net defense fields, as well as sonar buoys for underwater surveillance and positioning systems in the ocean, sea and littoral zones.

"We display this updated project for the first time, though beyond the open exhibit", added the spokesman of the Nevskoe bureau.

Full displacement of Cayman ships will make 8,000 tons, length is 150 meters, beam is 19.5 meters, draft is 4.5 meters. The ship will accelerate up to 18 knots, the crew will include 120 men.

Cayman’s air group will consist of ten assault transport helicopters and two search and rescue ones. In addition, the ship will accommodate up to six landing boats lifting at least 45 tons each.

As a reminder, two landing ships were keel-laid at Yantar Shipyard in April 2019; both are of the second series of Project 11711 named Vladimir Andreev and Vasily Trushin. The ships are to join the Russian Navy in 2023 and 2024, respectively.

Petr Morgunov started sea trials

https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%98%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F95/

Russian large amphibious assault ship to take to sea for further trials

It was earlier reported that the final stage of shipbuilders’ sea trials aboard the Pyotr Morgunov would be combined with state trials

MOSCOW, January 13. /TASS/. The Project 11711 large amphibious assault ship Pyotr Morgunov built by the Yantar Shipyard on the Baltic coast fulfilled a part of its program of trials in December and is now preparing for its new deployment to the sea, Shipyard spokesman Sergei Mikhailov told TASS on Monday.

"The Pyotr Morgunov fulfilled a part of the program of shipbuilders’ sea trials and will again take to the sea in the coming days," the spokesman said.

It was earlier reported that the final stage of shipbuilders’ sea trials aboard the Pyotr Morgunov would be combined with state trials.

The baseline Project 11711 lead large amphibious assault ship Ivan Gren was delivered to the Russian Navy in June 2018.

On April 23, the Yantar Shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) laid down two warships of the modified Project 11711 that will differ from their predecessors by larger displacement, an altered superstructure and the ability to carry two Ka-52K ‘Katran’ attack helicopters.

Head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS at the Army-2019 international arms show that new large amphibious assault ships "would be slightly wider and slightly longer" while their displacement might reach 8,000 tonnes.

The Pyotr Morgunov is the first serial-produced Project 11711 warship designed by the Nevskoye Design Bureau. The contract on the warship’s construction was concluded with Russia’s Defense Ministry in September 2014 and the warship was laid down in June 2015.

The Pyotr Morgunov is the largest in its class and displaces 5,000 tonnes. The warship is expected to be accepted for service in the Russian Navy after all of its trials are over.

The Pyotr Morgunov will be able to take on its board 13 main battle tanks, or 36 armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles. An option is envisaged for taking a marine infantry battalion on its board.

The amphibious assault ship can also transport a reinforced marine infantry company with organic military hardware and land it with the use of pontoons.

The amphibious assault ship is armed with 30mm six-barrel artillery guns and two Kamov Ka-29 transport/attack helicopters in its deck hangars.

The Project’s lead ship Ivan Gren was floated out in Kaliningrad in May 2012. It was accepted for service in the Russian Navy on June 20, 2018. It arrived at the Northern Fleet’s man naval base of Severomorsk in late October.

https://tass.com/defense/1107921

Russian large amphibious assault ship puts military hardware afloat during trials

The trials will continue as soon as the weather improves

MOSCOW, February 14. /TASS/. The Project 11711 large amphibious assault ship Pyotr Morgunov built by the Yantar Shipyard on the Baltic coast has successfully fulfilled a part of the program of its trials, including putting military hardware afloat, Shipyard spokesman Sergei Mikhailov told TASS on Friday.

"Over two days, hardware has been put afloat and physical fields have been measured. After that, the large amphibious assault ship returned to the base due to bad weather," the spokesman said.

The trials will continue as soon as the weather improves, he added.

The Pyotr Morgunov made its previous deployment to the sea in December 2019. It was earlier reported that the final stage of shipbuilders’ sea trials aboard the Pyotr Morgunov would be combined with state trials. Shipyard spokesman Mikhailov said in December last year that the shipbuilders planned to deliver the warship to the Russian Navy in the first quarter of 2020.

The baseline Project 11711 lead large amphibious assault ship Ivan Gren was delivered to the Russian Navy in June 2018.

On April 23, 2019, the Yantar Shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) laid down two warships of the modified Project 11711 that will differ from their predecessors by larger displacement, an altered superstructure and the ability to carry two Ka-52K ‘Katran’ attack helicopters.

Head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS at the Army-2019 international arms show that new large amphibious assault ships would be slightly wider and slightly longer while their displacement might reach 8,000 tonnes.

https://tass.com/defense/1120183

It seems an obvious thing to do but is the Ivan Gren going to be tested on the Syrian Express?

JohninMK wrote:It seems an obvious thing to do but is the Ivan Gren going to be tested on the Syrian Express?

I doubt it, first one is already in the Arctic and second one is also slated to go there

Syrian Express can be serviced by any type of ship military or civilian but only military transports can do the job in unprepared coastline up North

Pyotr Morgunov landing ship to be commissioned in late May

MOSCOW, March 20. /TASS/. The Project 11711 Pyotr Morgunov landing ship will be commissioned to the Russian Navy in late May this year, the Yantar Shipyard spokesman Sergei Mikhailov told TASS.

"All timetables are coordinated. In mid-April, factory sea trials will wrap up. Then, state tests, which began in parallel with the sea trials, will continue. The ship’s commissioning is scheduled for late May," he said.

On March 4, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu announced that the Navy would receive the Pyotr Morgunov landing ship in 2020.

The Pyotr Morgunov is the second project 11711 ship, developed by the Nevskoe Design Bureau. The contract for the ship's construction was signed in September 2014, and the ship was laid down in June 2015. The ship was launched in May 2018. The first ship of this class, Ivan Gren, was commissioned in June 2018.

Since April 2019, the Yantar Shipyard conducts construction of two landing ships of modified Project 11711 — Vladimir Andreyev and Vasiliy Trushin. Compared to the initial Project 11711 design, they will have bigger displacement and will carry several helicopters.



https://tass.com/defense/1133135

Pics of display model for new version:
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11711-moderniz/

hoom wrote:Pics of display model for new version:
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11711-moderniz/

This is sort of like China's Type 071.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_071_amphibious_transport_dock

No need to repeat the photos. Lazy posting.