Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a  8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a  8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship

Wouldn't call Mistral a peacetime ship, the biggest one has more than enough room to deploy a good sized force and nice deck size for helios which is everything you wanted it for. Plus it has nice support facilities.

Shame the Russians didn't get those, then again was silly to try and order them off a NATO ally anyways.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a  8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship

Wouldn't call Mistral a peacetime ship, the biggest one has more than enough room to deploy a good sized force and nice deck size for helios which is everything you wanted it for. Plus it has nice support facilities.

Shame the Russians didn't get those, then again was silly to try and order them off a NATO ally anyways.

In addition to having poor air defence mistral ships are built to commercial standards and not military standard. That was done to build them in short time and save money. However they have not the same damage control capabilities of a "real" naval ship

Modernization of the landing ship ‘Mitrofan Moskalenko’ has been considered unpractical for economic reasons, also the ship is morally and physically outdated,” a source in Russian Navy told the Izvestia newspaper. “The cost of its modernization is equal to construction of at least two small artillery ships.”

“Also, [the] ship’s necessity is questionable from a strategic point of view. Russia does not plan to land seaborne troops anywhere,” the source said.

I wouldn't bother with Ka-52 either …. why does a contra rotating chopper need such a long tail anyway ?

who actually uses ships like this ?
they seem useful re Tartus base in Syria and Kalinigrad in the Baltic …

why not bring the older design back ? …. its pretty big ….

in the future
I'd be tempted to build ships which are similar to Mil-24/35 choppers
a warship front end …. and a hovercraft landing capability and air assault team in the back ….

a bit of both ….. fairly autonomous …
EU/NATO has these fairly defenseless heli-carriers … and surround them with air defence destroyers etc
can Russia afford to waste money like that ? with such massive borders

I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

Isos wrote:

I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

They thought about it long before you   but it wasn't for landing ops.

"Ivan Gren": the sea is calling

The sea is calling, but can’t get through - BDK "Ivan Gren", lead ship of the first series of project 11711, one of the few new naval units of the Russian Navy equipped with a gunstock, after 14 months from the date of raising the St. Andrew’s flag, is still not included in the permanent readiness forces Northern Fleet. The current situation would be understandable and acceptable if it was a question of technically complex facilities such as the AICR Project 885M or FR Project 22350, and not a sea transport vessel with a minimal armament. The material published in the SF newspaper “On guard of the Arctic” No. 30 dated 08/09/2019 makes an attempt to explain why the newest paratrooper is still out of work, as well as provide interesting facts regarding his BC-5. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the text of this article, set out with minor bills, stylistic changes and brief comments by the author of the blog.

At the LST "Ivan Gren " trial operation continues.

Recently, a year has passed since the large landing ship Ivan Gren was accepted into the Russian Navy [06/20/2018]. What happened to the ship and its crew during this period? In October 2018, Gren moved from the Baltic to the North [15−22.10] and became part of the Northern Fleet. With the arrival at the [permanent] basing point, the pilot operation of the BDK in the conditions of the Arctic began.

Trial operation is a special period in the life of a ship [not of every ship], during which the crew independently masters the material part. The purpose of this process is to organize and conduct tests that before this could not be performed for objective reasons. In this case, we are talking about checking the operation of the systems and mechanisms of the latest BDK in the conditions of the [extreme] North.

Commander of the BS-5 (electromechanical combatparts), captain of 3rd rank: "The point is to gain experience on these systems. Identify deficiencies, develop suggestions for shipbuilders to develop optimal ways to eliminate them, make changes, prevent repeated errors in subsequent ships of the project and adapt the ship to Arctic conditions "...

Understanding this, the crew of "Ivan Gren" with particular zeal relates to the study of the material part. Currently, according to the commander of the warhead-5, the ship is in the final stages of preparation for going to sea to carry out a state test program. In August, it is planned to end the trial operation of the bow and stern landing devices, and to verify their operation. The personnel are faced with the task of conducting tests to receive landing equipment from the unequipped coast at the Northern Maritime Theater.

To learn and master is what. The BDK is simply crammed with modern weapons and military equipment [?!], Sensors, electronics. Chief mechanic: “The ship has great potential. It’s just the head one, and, as it happens in such cases, we [from time to time] stumble over something. The location of some systems is interesting, [sometimes] it’s difficult to understand why the designers made such decisions, but there are no problems with the material part, the personnel are developing a new ship with interest. Optimization due to automation.

For example, the engine rooms (bow and stern) are maintenance-free. Shifts are not provided, only inspection once every two hours during the tour. And all the parameters (pressure in the oil, fuel, cooling systems, temperature in each cylinder of the engines) are displayed on the control panel in the power and survivability post (PES). This is where the sailors keep watch. Automatic control - we set the stroke parameters, and the system supports them. Manual control is also provided. The second console at the post is the electric power system (four diesel generators that can be launched from this console). "

The hold system is also all automatic, the main valves are controlled from the remote control. To drain a tank or pump water, you just need to press a few buttons - choose a pump and a place to download (all in automatic mode). The ventilation system and fire lines work in a similar way. As for the explosion and fire safety of the ship, then there were some innovations. Everywhere doors with automatic closers and magnets are installed. Everything is designed so that if a fire alarm is triggered, then the magnets lose power and the fireproof doors close under their own weight, providing localization of the fire. However, they are not blocked - you can open the door manually, although you will have to make an effort.

Commander of the BS-5: “In case of real danger, the emergency party will be able to reach the source of ignition and ensure its elimination. If the automatic system fails, the watch officer after inspection will restart everything and turn on the magnets. Starting the fire pump and the volumetric chemical fire extinguishing (OXT) system, foam extinguishing stations - you can start everything with a single button. The drainage system also - in automatic mode, it is possible to drain the premises by pumping water overboard. "

In the commander’s commander’s cabin, a special automatic control system for the control unit was installed. Absolutely all parameters of the ship’s systems and mechanisms are displayed there, so the officer can control the situation "without leaving home." For the posts of the watch engineer-mechanic and commander of the warhead, special software has been developed that monitors and controls ...

Commander of the BS-5: “I have a special tablet at the screen of which you can see the entire BDK in a section. I select the room, set the mode (for example,“ water intake ”or“ fire ”), and the computer gives recommendations: where necessary to create defense lines, what proposals to promptly report to the ship’s commander, where to arrive, what to check, etc. Everything is very simple and clear. Press one button - the ship goes into automatic mode, but, of course, there is also a backup manual control. some systems pre It will provide two- and even three-fold redundancy. "

In general, automation is automatic, but crew members must be able to work in manual mode - this is a separate task in the trial operation. So the development takes place: something does not work, the sailors find out why. They need to understand how it starts, to know the basic errors that the system may produce. And you need to study all this while the ship is in the base. At sea, everything should work without fail, like a clock.

Commander of the BS-5: “There is a lot of automation at the BDK, and we don’t have a special training center. Yes — there are operating instructions, yes — we are trying to“ probe ”everything ourselves, but on such a modern ship the personnel should be well educated and It’s also bad that almost no one was left from the crew that worked directly with the industry at the construction site to take the ship. I myself came to Ivan Gren a little more than six months ago. Today in the warhead [most numerous of of all warheads of any ship - A.Sh.] only six of the first crewmen "...

One of them is the batch crew engineer, contract sailor: “I was very interested in the service on such a modern ship ... The project is new, very convenient, but requires study and constant attention. You can’t completely rely on the sensors here, you also need to know the mechanical part. From the very beginning, I was seriously interested in everything, I tried to delve into it, asked questions to industry representatives, I understood that this knowledge would be useful in the future. I really want to go to sea as soon as possible. But so far we are just getting ready "(end of quote) (link 1).


In conclusion, three comments:

1) taking into account the long and chaotic process of creating Grena (six-year design according to the three-time TTZ, 22 changes during construction - ref. 2), it seems that the degree of novelty of the project 11711 was so high that it raised doubts about its performance (in features - beyond the Arctic Circle), which led to the decision on trial operation;

2) a serious "dilution" of the BDK crew by personnel unfamiliar with the project, no doubt, slowed down the development of materiel and affected the terms of trial operation, which can be blamed both on the main department of defense personnel and the personnel of the Northern Fleet;

3) it is curious that a performance test in trial operation is assigned not only to the ship as a whole, but (separately) to its components, such as landing devices. ■

Isos wrote:

I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

They thought about it long before you   but it wasn't for landing ops.

Isos wrote:The little plane that lands on water in the picture should still be produced with modern radar for maritime patrol and give mid course corections to missiles.

They could recover it with a crane and launch it from a rather simple catapult like on old cruisers. It could eventually operate from Lavina and Lider classes. Its speed and range can help helicopters for those duties. With modern engines, modern catapult it could be weught twice as older once and carry decent EW, radars or EO systems.

Isos wrote:

That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

Hydroplanes? Seriously?

Not hydroplane but seaplane.

Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.