Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

If Moskva is going to be decomissioned, what will be the flag ship of BSF? Maybe one Udaloy destroyer...or one brand new Gorshkov?!

It is a shame as she is one of the few ships in modern times to engage in combat but overdue, she is not in a good state.

Big_Gazza wrote:Damn...  she reminds me of the Ukraina....  well, not that bad, but its sad to see her at the end of the line.

Never in service. In 1991 she was 95% complete. Now not more than a rusty hulk!

The question of repairing the missile cruiser "Moscow"

According to the web resource Mil.Press FlotProm, the Russian Navy does not yet have the means to modernize the missile cruiser of the project 1164 "Moscow". At the same time, the ship will be returned to the 13th shipyard. About this Mil.Press FlotProm reported two informed sources in the industry.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3276881.html

The flotprom article https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%8237/

Yandex Translate wrote:The Russian Navy is no means for the modernization of the guided missile cruiser project 1164 "Moskva". However, the vehicle will return to the course at the 13th shipyard. About it Mil.Press FlotProm said two people familiar with the industry source.

According to one of the constructors of the Northern project design Bureau (SPKB), the work on creation of technical project for the modernization of the ship are not kept because of lack of funds. He added that money is "high on maintenance repair".

13 the FSA has set the task to put "Moscow" on the move. It is possible for a year, told the publication source in the enterprise. Thus the ship will be able to get to the Severodvinsk "Asterisk" on their own, if the decision on modernization still taking.

The representative of the fleet, who requested anonymity, told Mil.FlotProm Press that the Navy reported to the General staff about inappropriate modernization RKR "Moskva" because of lack of money. According to him, "in a somewhat distorted form," this information hit the media. He emphasized that the question of the disposal of black sea Navy flagship is not, however, difficulties with financing really is.

"At the moment remodernization the work stopped, the fate of the ship hung in the air,' said the officer. – There is a setting to revive the Crimean ship repairing, so the cruiser will be repaired in Sevastopol".
The question of modernization of the ship has been postponed indefinitely.

Cruiser "Moskva" in 2018 planned to put on three-year repair at the Sevastopol marine plant (branch of the center of ship repair "Zvezdochka"). However, this has not happened, the contract is not yet signed. The publication earlier reported about the two options to return the ship to life, "Severodvinsk" and "Sevastopol". While selected second.

Not sure that especially counters the earlier question of 'whether its worth it', I'd suggest that question is in discussion higher up than the sources of this article -> only currently released maintenance funds & not started design work/planning/contract on Upgrade.

Also, for the record Ustinov has transited to St Petersburg for Navy parade.

hoom wrote:The flotprom article https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%8237/

Yandex Translate wrote:The Russian Navy is no means for the modernization of the guided missile cruiser project 1164 "Moskva". However, the vehicle will return to the course at the 13th shipyard. About it Mil.Press FlotProm said two people familiar with the industry source.

According to one of the constructors of the Northern project design Bureau (SPKB), the work on creation of technical project for the modernization of the ship are not kept because of lack of funds. He added that money is "high on maintenance repair".

13 the FSA has set the task to put "Moscow" on the move. It is possible for a year, told the publication source in the enterprise. Thus the ship will be able to get to the Severodvinsk "Asterisk" on their own, if the decision on modernization still taking.

The representative of the fleet, who requested anonymity, told Mil.FlotProm Press that the Navy reported to the General staff about inappropriate modernization RKR "Moskva" because of lack of money. According to him, "in a somewhat distorted form," this information hit the media. He emphasized that the question of the disposal of black sea Navy flagship is not, however, difficulties with financing really is.

"At the moment remodernization the work stopped, the fate of the ship hung in the air,' said the officer. – There is a setting to revive the Crimean ship repairing, so the cruiser will be repaired in Sevastopol".
The question of modernization of the ship has been postponed indefinitely.

Cruiser "Moskva" in 2018 planned to put on three-year repair at the Sevastopol marine plant (branch of the center of ship repair "Zvezdochka"). However, this has not happened, the contract is not yet signed. The publication earlier reported about the two options to return the ship to life, "Severodvinsk" and "Sevastopol". While selected second.

Not sure that especially counters the earlier question of 'whether its worth it', I'd suggest that question is in discussion higher up than the sources of this article -> only currently released maintenance funds & not started design work/planning/contract on Upgrade.

Also, for the record Ustinov has transited to St Petersburg for Navy parade.

Without Moskva, the BSF becomes pretty much a flotilla.

KiloGolf wrote:Without Moskva, the BSF becomes pretty much a flotilla.

Not sure why the BSF would require a ~12kT cruiser armed with carrier-killer missiles. Frigates and subs and missile boats are what the BSF needs, and it has those, with more coming.

The BSF region is ideal for staging for a Mediterranean taskforce, but with Syria winding down (from a Russian naval aspect) her extended "holiday" in the yards isn't too much of a deal.  Fingers crossed they can find the cash to modernise her as the 3 Slava sisters are formidable ships and provide huge punch to any surface fleet they join.  Vulkans may be "old"-ish but they are one of the few weapons that can kill a CVN with a single hit.

Not sure why the BSF would require a ~12kT cruiser armed with carrier-killer missiles.

Deterrence.
Having the intimidating prospect of a big fuckoff cruiser with a bunch of bigass supersonic anti-ship missiles & capable if old S-300 wreck your day has to be a moderating factor for US DDG captains when they are ordered into the Black Sea & even CVBGs in East Med in a way that Buyan-M & 11356 really can't do.

On the other hand BSF now has the highest concentration of modern ships in Russian Navy & can arguably best cope with the lack of said big fuckoff cruiser...

hoom wrote:

Not sure why the BSF would require a ~12kT cruiser armed with carrier-killer missiles.

Deterrence.
Having the intimidating prospect of a big fuckoff cruiser with a bunch of bigass supersonic anti-ship missiles & capable if old S-300 wreck your day has to be a moderating factor for US DDG captains when they are ordered into the Black Sea & even CVBGs in East Med in a way that Buyan-M & 11356 really can't do.

On the other hand BSF now has the highest concentration of modern ships in Russian Navy & can arguably best cope with the lack of said big fuckoff cruiser...

Deterrence comes not just from surface and submarine forces, but from Tu-22M3 with heavy AShMs, or Bastion land-launched Onyx, or MiG-31F with hypersonic Daggers....  The Black Sea is not an ocean, and any US vessel in that lake will find itself tracked and targeted by a veritable fuck-ton of nasty pointy speedy ordnance which couldn't care less about the Seppos over-inflated and undeserved opinions of themselves.

If the ship is too worn out and there fore beyond reasonable repair in the terms of cost and the amount of service life it will have after the potential repair than that's it, its done.

But if the problem is just about finding the money, then my perspective is the following:

The BSF might not need the Moskva at the moment but not repairing and upgrading the ship like they did with the Marshal Ustinov is just stupid, the ship is already there, you don't need to build it, its big, has plenty of space for new stuff, new weapons and systems.

No matter what the cost of the work would be, its still far less, as far as I can tell and know, then making new ships that will do the same function and have the same firepower. Plus, given the current trend, Russia is just building small/large corvettes and that's it, how many ships of this kind would it take to supplement a ship like Moskva.

Buyan-M and Karakuts have great anti ship capability FOR THEIR SIZE but no long/medium range air defense able to track large number of targets at one time. A task force of Karakuts with Pantsir-M can provide god air defense for a convoy but you need 4 of them plus 1/2 ships with dedicated ASubW capabilities and a potential medium AD system (Adm. Grigorovic for instance).

The only thing that remains is the Gorskov, lets not get into the obvious problem of building, but focus on the potential firepower of the ship as it is. Gorskov is great, but it's a compromise that its necessary to make for a ship of that size, it can potentially have the same number of anti ship missile as the Moskva, but then, no land attack capability, it has only half of the long range AD missiles compared to Moskva and can only carry far less ASubW on board. Moskva has 2 RBU-6000, plus, 10 torpedo tubes that can launch a whole range of conventional and rocket propelled torpedoes.

Any, of the 2 main Russian fleets will be seriously strengthen with a ship like this.

Lets take the case of the Northern fleet in a 2-3 years future. With 2 Slava class cruisers an upgraded Kirov class, 4 Udaloys (?????), 3 Gorskovs (hopefully), Kuznetsov aircraft carrier and potentiality 2 large corvetts of the 2038.6 type (derziki), they can form 3 battle groups around the 2 Slavas and one around Kuznetsov and And. Nakhimov.

Composition:

BG 1:
Marshal Ustinov + 2 Udaloy 1 + Gorskov class (Adm. Groskov) + 1 Attack submarine (which ever is the most ready)

BG 2:
Moskva + 2 Udaloy 1 + Gorskov class (Adm. Kastnov) + 1 Attack submarine (which ever is the most ready)

BG 3:
Kuznetsov (will have god AD protection of its own) +  And. Nakhimov + 1 Udaloy 2 (if they repair the Udaloy 2 ????)  + 1 Gorskov class + 1 Attack submarine (which ever is the most ready)


Its not ideal, I know, but there is potential at least.

The key to all this is how will the repair and modernization program unfold for the Udaloy class, how many Gorskov class ship will they have by the year 2020/21 (will the third one be in finishing stages????), And of course how, long will the process of repairing and upgrading Moskva take, now that they have gone trough that process with Marshal Ustinov.

Two Gorshkov frigates (8+8 AShM) would easily fill in for one Slava-class (16 AShM)

If it's old (1976) and worn out then no point investing further into it. It had it's day in the sun (way more than most ships), time for retirement now.

EDIT: actually it's 16 AShM per one Gorshkov frigate so even one would get the job done

Hole wrote:MiG-31K. All the rest is spot on. The Black Sea is a large lake. But maybe they should store the ship for two or three years until they found the money for a deep modernisation.

Reading between the lines, its a good bet that this is what the navy will do.  Either a modest repair to kick the can down the road, or mothball (ie place in "reserve") awaiting budget allocations. I don't see they will scrap her anytime soon, especially since 2x Kirovs and 2x Akula SSBNs have been held in reserve now for decades.

The main issue is what condition is she in? If worn out, she's toast.

Moskva i think is too heavy ship for BSF. All Slavas should be in Northern and Pacific Fleets as Kirovs

Deterrence comes not just from surface and submarine forces, but from Tu-22M3 with heavy AShMs, or Bastion land-launched Onyx, or MiG-31F with hypersonic Daggers.... The Black Sea is not an ocean, and any US vessel in that lake will find itself tracked and targeted by a veritable fuck-ton of nasty pointy speedy ordnance which couldn't care less about the Seppos over-inflated and undeserved opinions of themselves.

For sure but I think that still isn't gonna have the same mental impact as knowing there's a bigger badder ship out there.

hoom wrote:On the other hand BSF now has the highest concentration of modern ships in Russian Navy & can arguably best cope with the lack of said big fuckoff cruiser...

The BSF can cope in the northern part of the Black Sea, sure, without the cruiser. But it will no longer keep the entirety of the sea in check and will loose a big expeditionary tool, this is a gap that three small improved Krivaks cannot and will not cover.

PapaDragon wrote:
Two Gorshkov frigates (8+8 AShM) would easily fill in for one Slava-class (16 AShM)

If it's old (1976) and worn out then no point investing further into it. It had it's day in the sun (way more than most ships), time for retirement now.

EDIT: actually it's 16 AShM per one Gorshkov frigate so even one would get the job done

True, but i wouldn't place the Gorshkovs in the BSF, it makes sense to send the older ships to the Baltic and the Black sea, while newer platforms take there place in the other fleets, with the exception of Corvettes.

IMO. they should upgrade the Slavas with the Zircon or if possible Kinzal and the AD with navalised S-400, and you got one terrifying ship.

It was built in 76 and then spent​ 20 years or more without maintenance before getting back in use

You can't do anything with it anymore other than giving it he last overhaul before retirement

Hell, they were about to cut it for scrap once already before they changed their mind

PapaDragon wrote:
It was built in 76 and then spent​ 20 years or more without maintenance before getting back in use

You can't do anything with it anymore other than giving it he last overhaul before retirement

Hell, they were about to cut it for scrap once already before they changed their mind

Considering the ongoing sh%tshow with the building of new ships, this seems like the better compromise right now.
And aren't they already upgrading some older ships, Udaloy, Sovremennyy and Kirov?

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
It was built in 76 and then spent​ 20 years or more without maintenance before getting back in use

You can't do anything with it anymore other than giving it he last overhaul before retirement

Hell, they were about to cut it for scrap once already before they changed their mind

Considering the ongoing sh%tshow with the building of new ships, this seems like the better compromise right now.
And aren't they already upgrading some older ships, Udaloy, Sovremennyy and Kirov?

They are upgrading Kirovs and Udalois but those are significantly newer than Moskva, Sovremenyy are being converted to museums

And while I'm not biggest fan of Russian naval shipbuilding even I think that they should go with new ship instead of upgrading something this old, upgrading Ustinov took quite a while

PapaDragon wrote:upgrading re-painting and fitting with 90s sensors Ustinov took quite a while

Fixed for you.

KiloGolf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:upgrading re-painting and fitting with 90s sensors Ustinov took quite a while

Fixed for you.

Still better than 70s sensors and 80s paint

PapaDragon wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:upgrading re-painting and fitting with 90s sensors Ustinov took quite a while

Fixed for you.

Still better than 70s sensors and 80s paint

It's like painting and fitting Nissan stickers on a old Datsun and switching from 8 track to cassette deck.
It sure is an improvement.

PapaDragon wrote:They are upgrading Kirovs and Udalois but those are significantly newer than Moskva, Sovremenyy are being converted to museums

And while I'm not biggest fan of Russian naval shipbuilding even I think that they should go with new ship instead of upgrading something this old, upgrading Ustinov took quite a while

That's odd, there is mention of ongoing modernization of the Burnyy.

"In 2012 the cruiser was laid up for repairs and upgrades at the Zvyozdochka Shipyard. The ship rejoined the navy in 2016"
It took 4 years to modernize, way faster, then the G's ~12 years?
Taking things into account as well as the Nakhimov, in 10/12 years Russia could have 2 very well armed Cruisers.