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HoleAfter a second look at the picture, there is the third Rogov class ship in the background. Some news if it will be put back into service?
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Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser
Hole- Posts : 11122
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George1- Posts : 18522
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Moskva Decision
An Interfaks-AVN source has told the news agency the fate of Black Sea Fleet flagship Moskva is undecided. For now, the cruiser remains at Sevastopol’s 13th Ship Repair Plant (13 SRZ) with a caretaker crew. And the Navy Main Command faces a complex choice.
Option 1 is a “deep modernization” costing perhaps 40-50 billion rubles the navy lacks. It would be “deeper” than Marshal Ustinov’s (which was really a protracted overhaul). The Northern Fleet’s Ustinov was laid up at Zvezdochka from 2011 until late 2016. But with Moskva, the superstructure would reportedly be modified to accommodate a VLS for the Kalibr-NK to replace the ship’s aged SS-N-12 / Sandbox ASCMs. But Moskva itself is already 35 years old.
Option 2 is scrapping Moskva. AVN’s source says this would be a blow to Russian and navy prestige, but he claims two new Gorshkov-class frigates (project 22350) could be built with funds not spent on Moskva.
In 2018, Moskva was expected to begin a three-year repair at Sevastopol’s Sevmorzavod — a Zvezdochka affiliate.
That three-year repair is actually Option 3, a middle point between “deep modernization” and scrapping. And it’s usually the choice settled upon.
Not mentioned by AVN is the 40-50 billion rubles for “deep modernization” is just a little less than what the navy planned to spend to return its Kuznetsov carrier to service (before PD-50 sank damaging the flight deck in the process).
Moskva was active in the Med supporting Russian operations in Syria from 2014 through early 2016, but has been virtually inactive since.
At some point, the navy will also have to decide what to do about the third and final Slava-class CG, the Pacific Fleet’s Varyag. It has 28 years of service and many miles under its keel.
Meanwhile, we wait for word on Moskva.
https://russiandefpolicy.blog/2018/11/29/moskva-decision/
An Interfaks-AVN source has told the news agency the fate of Black Sea Fleet flagship Moskva is undecided. For now, the cruiser remains at Sevastopol’s 13th Ship Repair Plant (13 SRZ) with a caretaker crew. And the Navy Main Command faces a complex choice.
Option 1 is a “deep modernization” costing perhaps 40-50 billion rubles the navy lacks. It would be “deeper” than Marshal Ustinov’s (which was really a protracted overhaul). The Northern Fleet’s Ustinov was laid up at Zvezdochka from 2011 until late 2016. But with Moskva, the superstructure would reportedly be modified to accommodate a VLS for the Kalibr-NK to replace the ship’s aged SS-N-12 / Sandbox ASCMs. But Moskva itself is already 35 years old.
Option 2 is scrapping Moskva. AVN’s source says this would be a blow to Russian and navy prestige, but he claims two new Gorshkov-class frigates (project 22350) could be built with funds not spent on Moskva.
In 2018, Moskva was expected to begin a three-year repair at Sevastopol’s Sevmorzavod — a Zvezdochka affiliate.
That three-year repair is actually Option 3, a middle point between “deep modernization” and scrapping. And it’s usually the choice settled upon.
Not mentioned by AVN is the 40-50 billion rubles for “deep modernization” is just a little less than what the navy planned to spend to return its Kuznetsov carrier to service (before PD-50 sank damaging the flight deck in the process).
Moskva was active in the Med supporting Russian operations in Syria from 2014 through early 2016, but has been virtually inactive since.
At some point, the navy will also have to decide what to do about the third and final Slava-class CG, the Pacific Fleet’s Varyag. It has 28 years of service and many miles under its keel.
Meanwhile, we wait for word on Moskva.
https://russiandefpolicy.blog/2018/11/29/moskva-decision/
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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two new Gorshkov-class frigates (project 22350) could be built with funds not spent on Moskva.
This is correct decision
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3910
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PapaDragon wrote:
two new Gorshkov-class frigates (project 22350) could be built with funds not spent on Moskva.
This is correct decision
That would be a much better use of the money.
Isos- Posts : 11602
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
two new Gorshkov-class frigates (project 22350) could be built with funds not spent on Moskva.
This is correct decision
That would be a much better use of the money.
A destroyer size ship would be better to replace Moskva. Even two gorshkov aren't enough since they are only frigate with limited capacities. For its size a modern slava would carry 4 times more than a gorshkov.
Maybe it's time to work on a new design for a 170m carrier destroyer ship to replace Slavas. Gorshkov M seems to be only a marketing project.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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Isos wrote:.....
A destroyer size ship would be better to replace Moskva. Even two gorshkov aren't enough since they are only frigate with limited capacities. For its size a modern slava would carry 4 times more than a gorshkov.
Maybe it's time to work on a new design for a 170m carrier destroyer ship to replace Slavas. Gorshkov M seems to be only a marketing project.
They won't be getting destroyer sized ship for several decades at least so Gorshkov is what goes
Gibraltar- Posts : 39
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They really need to kick down on a modern nuclear destroyer design. Ok to save two leviathan-flagship such as Nakhimov and Velikiy but that has been cbosen because they are nuclear powered, if Kirovs were convenfional fueled they would already be scrapped.
So, without any Slava class in active duty they'll have nothing in navy range between Gorshkovs and Kirovs.
My little opinion is that they should concentrate any strain in building only nuear blue navy ships, actually 4 destroyers and two carriers and some other gorshkovs. Any ship smaller than frigate size should be bought blank in stock numbers from chinese yards. They would save so much money and time. Quality won't be so good maybe but when the fleet's frame, that are the most long lasting are ready they'll have a good time window to service the smaller chinese units or build theyr own and resell the chinese ones.
So, without any Slava class in active duty they'll have nothing in navy range between Gorshkovs and Kirovs.
My little opinion is that they should concentrate any strain in building only nuear blue navy ships, actually 4 destroyers and two carriers and some other gorshkovs. Any ship smaller than frigate size should be bought blank in stock numbers from chinese yards. They would save so much money and time. Quality won't be so good maybe but when the fleet's frame, that are the most long lasting are ready they'll have a good time window to service the smaller chinese units or build theyr own and resell the chinese ones.
Gibraltar- Posts : 39
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I agree substantially with the ones claiming as Russian Navy coollapse. In few years they'll be in surface fleet crisis if they don't accelerate in a plan for big units fast modernization and or new peojects building. In a next future blu water theatre they'll have nothing but a Kirov some ssn/sgn and frigates to deploy and they can't make nakhimov race as annambulance by the seven seas in any theatre will need a more-than-a-frigate capable ship to deply. Or maybe Putin thinks to ring Xi saying..hey friend, please lend me Liaoning for some weeks, my baby wants a cruise for our anniversary.. lol but nothing to laugh
walle83- Posts : 976
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Gibraltar wrote:I agree substantially with the ones claiming as Russian Navy coollapse. In few years they'll be in surface fleet crisis if they don't accelerate in a plan for big units fast modernization and or new peojects building. In a next future blu water theatre they'll have nothing but a Kirov some ssn/sgn and frigates to deploy and they can't make nakhimov race as annambulance by the seven seas in any theatre will need a more-than-a-frigate capable ship to deply. Or maybe Putin thinks to ring Xi saying..hey friend, please lend me Liaoning for some weeks, my baby wants a cruise for our anniversary.. lol but nothing to laugh
Russia needs to realice that it cant afford a blue water navy any more. Kirovs and other large cruisers belongs in the past and the few that remains make little or no difference. Impressive and cool vessels yes, but mostly a waist of money with upgrades on 30+ years old ships.
No Russia should concentrate on frigates and corvettes and build up a strong brown fleet.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2654
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walle83 wrote:Gibraltar wrote:I agree substantially with the ones claiming as Russian Navy coollapse. In few years they'll be in surface fleet crisis if they don't accelerate in a plan for big units fast modernization and or new peojects building. In a next future blu water theatre they'll have nothing but a Kirov some ssn/sgn and frigates to deploy and they can't make nakhimov race as annambulance by the seven seas in any theatre will need a more-than-a-frigate capable ship to deply. Or maybe Putin thinks to ring Xi saying..hey friend, please lend me Liaoning for some weeks, my baby wants a cruise for our anniversary.. lol but nothing to laugh
Russia needs to realice that it cant afford a blue water navy any more. Kirovs and other large cruisers belongs in the past and the few that remains make little or no difference. Impressive and cool vessels yes, but mostly a waist of money with upgrades on 30+ years old ships.
No Russia should concentrate on frigates and corvettes and build up a strong brown fleet.
As I wrote many times, they do not need any ship from China.
This would be needed only in wartime if Russia needs a lot of ships in a short time.
They need work in their shipyard and they need to develop their workforce. For 20 years there has been almost nothing build for the surface fleet and I believe very little also for the civil shipbuilding.
A lot of the experienced people from soviet time died or are too old, and in addition it was.not easy to retain new promising youngster, both in engineering design.and.manufacturing and experienced workers.
If this has not been done yet they need good apprentiship schemes to form new capable people, and then they need enough work, and possibly constant enough in the various years both in civil and military shipbuilding (without having only boost and boom cycles).
For this reason they are upgrading several shipyards.
The only thing that they need from China or south Korea is equipment for the shipyards, to save time for rebuilding and upgrading them in the short time, and eventually trainings to implement new building technology and good quality controls procedures. They could in the short time train some amount of people in south korea and have korean support to have good training centers and apprentiships in Russia.
Russia has not a brown navy, it has a so called "green navy".
What they need now, if the problem with the engines and polimet redut is solved, is to start building gorshov frigates, and gorshov m destroyers (something 8000tons full load is a destroyer) for the various fleets.
GorshovM will have capabilities in par with a modernised Slava class cruiser, and, if built at least in numbers to substitute the Slava class cruisers and the udaloy and sovremenny class destroyers as they will be retired, some blue navy capabilities will be maintained.
They could be built in parallel in different shipyards (Severnaya verf in saint Petersburg, Yantar in Kaliningrad, Kerch in Crimea and Amur or Zvezda in the far east.
And then, in a few years time, also nuclear powered cruisers (leader?) could be build at baltic shipyard in saint Petersburg or at Zvezda in the far east.
walle83- Posts : 976
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Russia has not a brown navy, it has a so called "green navy".
What they need now, if the problem with the engines and polimet redut is solved, is to start building gorshov frigates, and gorshov m destroyers (something 8000tons full load is a destroyer) for the various fleets.
GorshovM will have capabilities in par with a modernised Slava class cruiser, and, if built at least in numbers to substitute the Slava class cruisers and the udaloy and sovremenny class destroyers as they will be retired, some blue navy capabilities will be maintained.
They could be built in parallel in different shipyards (Severnaya verf in saint Petersburg, Yantar in Kaliningrad, Kerch in Crimea and Amur or Zvezda in the far east.
And then, in a few years time, also nuclear powered cruisers (leader?) could be build at baltic shipyard in saint Petersburg or at Zvezda in the far east.
Yes correct a Green navy, my mistake.
I have my doubts about the GorshovM, first of all the need to finish the first generation Gorshovs, that will take a few years. By that time all sovremennys will have retired and the navy is left with some Udaloys, a couple of Slava cruisers and 2 Kirovs and the Kuznetsov to fill the role of a blue navy surface fleet.
As for having one of the far east shipyards constructing a nuclear cruiser, well anything is possible i supose. But by just looking at the producing rate of the Steregushchiy class at Amur this wont happen in a rush.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2654
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walle83 wrote:
As for having one of the far east shipyards constructing a nuclear cruiser, well anything is possible i supose. But by just looking at the producing rate of the Steregushchiy class at Amur this wont happen in a rush.
Zvezda shipyard in the far east, the one that is being rebuild and modernised with south corean support is going to build tankers with more than 100000 tons displacement and has received the contract for the huge nuclear powered lider class icebreakers. I believe they will cope with 3/4 nuclear powered cruisers, after the modernisation work of the shipyard are complete.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Amusing all this talk about the pressing need for frigates and yet bemoaning that the Russian fleet is no longer a blue water navy...
If you think you can't afford to upgrade or maintain Slava class ships WTF is the point of making destroyers or cruisers or carriers?
If you want a fleet of corvettes and frigates then you don't want a navy, you want a coast guard.
The choices for the slava class ships was do nothing and scrap them and use the money for something else, give them a modest upgrade to make them useful until a replacement is ready, or give them a super upgrade with all the bells and whistles that will cost a large fraction of a new large vessel.
The simple fact is that large ships are not cheap and with new generation systems and weapons and sensors getting them into service sooner on upgraded old model ships will allow production and experience that will be invaluable for the design and production of real new larger ships in a few years time.
No matter what they do the Russian Navy will be totally inconsequential in any future war with NATO or the US so there is no point lamenting the loss of potential frigates to upgrades of older larger ships.
Even just replacing RiF-M with Redut would be a significant performance improvement for an upgraded Kirov class ship, let alone having 80 UKSK launch tubes for Zircon hypersonic missiles that are being tested next year (2019) and will make any ship with UKSK launch tubes rather formidable to say the least.
Upgrading old ships to take new weapons is a pain in the ass because old big missiles on angled launchers are not easy to change into vertical launch tube systems... but the change would be worth it most of the time just to get some bigger ships with capabilities in line with the newer smaller ships entering service.
Once UKSK is the only cruise/antiship/anti sub missile launcher in the Russian navy they can take advantage of the standardisation in terms of weapon production and weapon storage.
Currently any Russian port a Kirov class ship or the Kuznetsov visits needs stocks of Granit missiles, while slava class ships need Vulkan missiles, and most other ships need Onyx and soon Zircon. Soon Zircon will be all they need.
If you think you can't afford to upgrade or maintain Slava class ships WTF is the point of making destroyers or cruisers or carriers?
If you want a fleet of corvettes and frigates then you don't want a navy, you want a coast guard.
The choices for the slava class ships was do nothing and scrap them and use the money for something else, give them a modest upgrade to make them useful until a replacement is ready, or give them a super upgrade with all the bells and whistles that will cost a large fraction of a new large vessel.
The simple fact is that large ships are not cheap and with new generation systems and weapons and sensors getting them into service sooner on upgraded old model ships will allow production and experience that will be invaluable for the design and production of real new larger ships in a few years time.
No matter what they do the Russian Navy will be totally inconsequential in any future war with NATO or the US so there is no point lamenting the loss of potential frigates to upgrades of older larger ships.
Even just replacing RiF-M with Redut would be a significant performance improvement for an upgraded Kirov class ship, let alone having 80 UKSK launch tubes for Zircon hypersonic missiles that are being tested next year (2019) and will make any ship with UKSK launch tubes rather formidable to say the least.
Upgrading old ships to take new weapons is a pain in the ass because old big missiles on angled launchers are not easy to change into vertical launch tube systems... but the change would be worth it most of the time just to get some bigger ships with capabilities in line with the newer smaller ships entering service.
Once UKSK is the only cruise/antiship/anti sub missile launcher in the Russian navy they can take advantage of the standardisation in terms of weapon production and weapon storage.
Currently any Russian port a Kirov class ship or the Kuznetsov visits needs stocks of Granit missiles, while slava class ships need Vulkan missiles, and most other ships need Onyx and soon Zircon. Soon Zircon will be all they need.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Varyag & Panteleev in exercises at India https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3459725.html
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Varyag & Panteleev return http://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/01/el-grupo-de-varyag-regresa-casa.html
Japan reported them 100km south of Tsushima on 17th.
Japan reported them 100km south of Tsushima on 17th.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Varyag & Panteleev docking
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Moskva upgrade won't start at least till 2020 https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F6/
I'm getting a scrap/send to museum vibe about this tbh.
I'm getting a scrap/send to museum vibe about this tbh.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Well they said they didn't have the money for a deep upgrade, so it might be that they need to secure funding before they start...
Also the claims that the money for the deep upgrade could buy two Frigates... the problem there is that they don't have the money ready in either case, so the choice is not a deep upgrade or two new Frigates... the choice is a deep upgrade and lots of work finding the money from all sorts of places to get it started, or the ship will be scrapped and they simply wont bother looking for the money and there wont be two new frigates any time soon.
If they added two new frigates to the list those frigates would be added to the end of the current frigate production programme, which means in ten years time instead of 12 new frigates they will get 14...
The photos above clearly show the difference between Frigates and Cruisers in size... in fact if you look carefully at Hooms pictures, in the bottom one you can see from top to bottom, the cruiser, two frigates and a destroyer... the cruiser is clearly the biggest... the frigates are tiny... both much shorter and narrower than the cruiser, but the destroyer is about the same width as the cruiser and only slightly shorter.
Granted the cruiser in this case is the Slava class and therefore not their biggest cruiser, but really it actually could be considered a large destroyer rather than a cruiser.
Also the claims that the money for the deep upgrade could buy two Frigates... the problem there is that they don't have the money ready in either case, so the choice is not a deep upgrade or two new Frigates... the choice is a deep upgrade and lots of work finding the money from all sorts of places to get it started, or the ship will be scrapped and they simply wont bother looking for the money and there wont be two new frigates any time soon.
If they added two new frigates to the list those frigates would be added to the end of the current frigate production programme, which means in ten years time instead of 12 new frigates they will get 14...
The photos above clearly show the difference between Frigates and Cruisers in size... in fact if you look carefully at Hooms pictures, in the bottom one you can see from top to bottom, the cruiser, two frigates and a destroyer... the cruiser is clearly the biggest... the frigates are tiny... both much shorter and narrower than the cruiser, but the destroyer is about the same width as the cruiser and only slightly shorter.
Granted the cruiser in this case is the Slava class and therefore not their biggest cruiser, but really it actually could be considered a large destroyer rather than a cruiser.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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To be fair 20380s are commonly considered Corvettes, modern euroFrigates are about the size of an Udaloy & Zumwalts are the size of Slavas but still classified Destroyers.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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hoom wrote:Moskva upgrade won't start at least till 2020 https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F6/
I'm getting a scrap/send to museum vibe about this tbh.
New ships are better that old ones, especially if there's more than one
Besides she had a good last rodeo, helping write a whole chapter in history f Middle East ain't small thing, definitely better send-off than what most of other Soviet era ships got
walle83- Posts : 976
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Although its a shame to retire such a beutiful cruiser i would if it could be replaced by say 2 Admiral Gorshkovs frigates.
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Marshal Ustinov
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/podberezovik-et1/
The big radar is a Podberezovnik C-band search radar (45 kW) with a range 500km and at altitudes as high as 360km. It can see a fighter type target at 360km with an accuracy of 150m.
http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/Fregat-M2EM_a001879007.aspx
The second radar is a fregat radar. I don't know which version, must be the fregat M2EM. But they mainly work in E band and have a 300km instrumented range and 230km range against a non stealth fighter target.
I wonder if they upgraded it to carry 48N6E2 (200km) missiles instead of the old 5V55 with only a range of 75 km. That would be a very good upgrade while waiting for the new destroyer. PtG will also go on a long mod so they would need all the 3 Slava to be upgraded at this level fast.
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/podberezovik-et1/
The big radar is a Podberezovnik C-band search radar (45 kW) with a range 500km and at altitudes as high as 360km. It can see a fighter type target at 360km with an accuracy of 150m.
http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/Fregat-M2EM_a001879007.aspx
The second radar is a fregat radar. I don't know which version, must be the fregat M2EM. But they mainly work in E band and have a 300km instrumented range and 230km range against a non stealth fighter target.
I wonder if they upgraded it to carry 48N6E2 (200km) missiles instead of the old 5V55 with only a range of 75 km. That would be a very good upgrade while waiting for the new destroyer. PtG will also go on a long mod so they would need all the 3 Slava to be upgraded at this level fast.
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Replacing the old Rif and Rif-M launchers with Redut fixed bin launchers would increase the capacity for missile numbers and also expand the missile options to include 400km range missiles or x4 150km range 9M96 missiles or x4 50km range 9M96 missiles... or indeed x16 9M100 short range SAMs with a CIWS capability.
It will improve commonality with the other new ships it will be operating with and therefore reduce costs and improve performance and flexibility, with no automated rotary missile magazines used by the Rif and Rif-M systems to align missile tubes to deck hatches for launching missiles.
It will improve commonality with the other new ships it will be operating with and therefore reduce costs and improve performance and flexibility, with no automated rotary missile magazines used by the Rif and Rif-M systems to align missile tubes to deck hatches for launching missiles.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2654
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in such case, won't they also need to istall a poliment radar?GarryB wrote:Replacing the old Rif and Rif-M launchers with Redut fixed bin launchers would increase the capacity for missile numbers and also expand the missile options to include 400km range missiles or x4 150km range 9M96 missiles or x4 50km range 9M96 missiles... or indeed x16 9M100 short range SAMs with a CIWS capability.
It will improve commonality with the other new ships it will be operating with and therefore reduce costs and improve performance and flexibility, with no automated rotary missile magazines used by the Rif and Rif-M systems to align missile tubes to deck hatches for launching missiles.
Isos- Posts : 11602
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Not necessarly. 9M96 can already be used by radars of S-300PMU2 or S-400 which are different than poliment. Slavas have older S-300F radar so they would need an upgrade but can be only Fort-M, no need for s-400 or poliment.
They are also active radar missiles so easier to use than Semi actives radar missiles. So more radars can guide them while SARH missiles needs specific radars working in a specific bandwidth.
They are also active radar missiles so easier to use than Semi actives radar missiles. So more radars can guide them while SARH missiles needs specific radars working in a specific bandwidth.