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    Syrian Civil War: News #10

    d_taddei2
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    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 Empty reply

    Post  d_taddei2 Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:27 pm

    some good news but its still going to be a while before it happens. The Popular Mobilization Forces (PMU) are actually quite good for a militia, and their number is said to be 100,000-120,000 so even if 30,000-50,000 of them was to target ISIS at the Syria border town of Al bukamal this would ease the pressure from Deir Ez Zoir as ISIS would have to send reinforcements.

    A Syrian parliamentarian on Saturday said that Syria would welcome the Iraqi Popular Mobilization Units (PMU) to fight ISIS terrorists in Syria only days after several leaders of the mostly-Shi'a militia said they would fight ISIS outside of Iraq

    Only last week, Hadi al-Ameri, the secretary general of Badr Organization, one of the militias under the PMU umbrella, said the militia’s leaderships had “received an invitation from President Bashar al-Assad to enter Syria after Iraq is liberated

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syrian-mp-we-would-welcome-iraqi-militia-to-fight-isis-in-syria/

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    Post  VladimirSahin Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:20 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm sure Russia can develop better Javelin analogue
    Jav video reminded me of this



    A video where two ATGM - a MILAN and a Javelin - where shoot to an incoming VBIED reminded you a video where only small caliber fire is employed against a similar target ?

    I fail to find any kind of connection.


    No domestic "analogue" of FGM-148 is in work at today (the designer team would be dismissed on the spot).
    The new line of objects in this niche must satisfy requirements way, way higher than that badly conceived product and in spite of that all of them remain several step behind protection advancements achieved by domestic armoured vehicles of new generation.

    Abroad designers are still heavily entangled practicing wizardy with pre.charge times of initialization and tip rod design to attempt to cope with last decade 4C23 elements.

    How are Javelins badly conceived products? Javelins are great weapons. Very expensive sure, but they're pretty good at what they do.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:18 pm

    For the price of one you could get 20 Metis-M1s with similar range and better penetration.

    Even Kornet would be cheaper yet offers much much better range and much better speed and penetration performance.

    Javelin is gold plated shit.
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    Post  VladimirSahin Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:For the price of one you could get 20 Metis-M1s with similar range and better penetration.

    Even Kornet would be cheaper yet offers much much better range and much better speed and penetration performance.

    Javelin is gold plated shit.

    Metis-M1s are great weapons sure and you could get 20 Metis-M1s for one Javelin but... America has the budget to use these weapons in standard service. I mean think about it... A Javelin operator is going to lock on to a target fire it, and he's out of there.
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:36 am

    New Peto map. Slowly but surely any hope of any relief of the siege is disappearing.

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 CxuzeoYWEAA73zC
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:39 am

    just thought i would share this map as it has all the districts in the city, i am sure this will become useful in the coming weeks and months.

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 Screen10
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:33 am

    Metis-M1s are great weapons sure and you could get 20 Metis-M1s for one Javelin but... America has the budget to use these weapons in standard service. I mean think about it... A Javelin operator is going to lock on to a target fire it, and he's out of there.

    Lets be honest... the only targets you can get a proper lock on is a car or a tank or some other armoured vehicle.

    Such weapons are used most of the time against MG or sniper positions or targets in a room in a building.

    Against a speeding car or truck it is serious overkill and the fire and forget capability is useable but totally unnecessary and expensive.

    Against a sniper or MG position or window in a building the fire and forget capability is totally useless buts still expensive.

    The only time it makes sense is against an armour target that is firing back and for the price you could have Javelin at 2km from the target or Kornet 5-7km from the target... similar flight time as the Kornet is much faster... and in a big fight... ie WWIII a thermal sight looking at the target it is attacking means IR dazzlers would be effective more often than not... especially in conjunction with smoke... things Kornet would ignore.

    I am not suggesting it is faulty... but it is certainly not the amazing super weapon the US seems to think it is.

    The tests I saw they had a bank of hair dryers heating up target T-54s so the system could get a lock... a bit of vegetation as camo and it would be useless.

    It would be a SACLOS missile like Metis.... but much more expensive.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:50 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:For the price of one you could get 20 Metis-M1s with similar range and better penetration.

    Even Kornet would be cheaper yet offers much much better range and much better speed and penetration performance.

    Javelin is gold plated shit.

    Metis-M1s are great weapons sure and you could get 20 Metis-M1s for one Javelin but... America has the budget to use these weapons in standard service. I mean think about it... A Javelin operator is going to lock on to a target fire it, and he's out of there.

    And also have quite low success rate of the fire and forget. It is nice to have, but it isn't really that effective. In manual mode though it is still a great weapon. But not nearly as accurate. So it can be very accurate or poorly accurate. No inbetween.
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    Post  TheArmenian Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:52 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:For the price of one you could get 20 Metis-M1s with similar range and better penetration.

    Even Kornet would be cheaper yet offers much much better range and much better speed and penetration performance.

    Javelin is gold plated shit.

    Metis-M1s are great weapons sure and you could get 20 Metis-M1s for one Javelin but... America has the budget to use these weapons in standard service. I mean think about it... A Javelin operator is going to lock on to a target fire it, and he's out of there.

    We have seen countless numbers of ATGMs used against tanks in Syria and elsewhere.
    How many times did you see the need to fire and get out of there?

    Sure the capability of fire and forget is a bonus. But I can not justify the cost because you don't need it for 99% of situations.
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    Post  higurashihougi Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:51 am

    Javelin's locking mechanism is outdated and dangerous for the users.

    For Javelin, you have to point the laser to the target for locking. But at the moment we are having laser detectors which can alarm the vehicle about being pointed. The tank now knows that it is targeted from ABCXYZ, it turns the gun and BANG BANG BANG, you are done.

    For Kornet, the system doesn't point the laser at the target. Instead it shots a number of laser pulse up to the sky. Each pulse provide a different information about the relative positions of the missile comapared to the launcher. The missile receives some of the laser pulses and manage to calculate its current position, and use that info to change its direction if needed. As the laser pulses are not shot to the enemy tank but to the sky, the enemy tank cannot detect the missile users.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:48 pm

    off the topic of javelin and metis looool.

    Whats peoples views on:

    How long will it take to liberate Aleppo city?

    After its liberated which will be the next target?

    How will the liberation effect the terrorists? i.e surrender in certain areas etc.
    calm
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    Post  calm Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:52 pm

    Laughing

    "The videos from eastern Aleppo aren't staged..."
    The White Helmets released a video of them doing the #MannequinChallenge. Not sure what they were thinking.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:14 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:For the price of one you could get 20 Metis-M1s with similar range and better penetration.

    Even Kornet would be cheaper yet offers much much better range and much better speed and penetration performance.

    Javelin is gold plated shit.

    Metis-M1s are great weapons sure and you could get 20 Metis-M1s for one Javelin but... America has the budget to use these weapons in standard service. I mean think about it... A Javelin operator is going to lock on to a target fire it, and he's out of there.

    Non-sense, Javelins are gold-plated white elephants. To buy one "old" Javelin launcher ($120k) and one missile ($80k), costs upward of $200k, and now the systems are costing nearly $250k, and lets contrast the performance with Kornet:

    Against non-armor:

    Kornet-EM can defeat those threats up to 10 km, while in manual mode (which is only useful mode against non-armor) Javelin only has a measly 2 km range.

    Against armor:

    Kornet-EM has laser-beam-riding guidance, which is virtually impossible to jam with PPS (Passive Protection System) on armor vehicles because the laser beam being emitted is orders of magnitude weaker than a laser range finder, and it makes it exponentially harder to detect with PPS, and even if it was detected the sensor is located on the rear looking back at the launcher, making it incredibly difficult to dazzle, with a max range of 8-8.5 km.

    Javelin on the other hand is fairly simple to defeat with PPS, Shtora for example has both IR dazzlers and electro-magnetic spectrum opaque smoke grenades. Assuming the guidance works, the range is almost half that of Kornet-EM, at 4.7 km. The Shtora system on T-90/A series was made to punish Javelin operators, and its designed to whip the turret in the direction of the FFS Javelin and fire the ANIET-fuze HE-Frag 125mm shell upwards of 12 km away (nearly 3x the range of FFS Javelin), turning the Javelin operator in to a Jackson Pollack painting!

    Other factors:

    Kornet-EM has 8 ready to fire missiles and 8 on stand by, and has a firing mode designed to defeat the APS suites on OPFOR's armor, and is also designed to shoot down helicopters and cruise missiles......these are all features that the Javelin doesn't have while still maintaining being the more expensive system.
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    Post  Airman Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:22 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:How long will it take to liberate Aleppo city?

    I think it will take a little more time. SAA surrounded Aleppo but it didn't has fully control in Aleppo. Fatah Halab and other groups are still fighting in Aleppo against SAA and its Allies. I'm sure these groups have very limited weapons, ammunition and militant (or terrorist. Whatever you called it).

    My opinion is I think a new safe passage for militants can open by the leadership of Syria, Russia and Turkey. A safe passage can opens on the M4 road. By this way, these groups can go to al-Bab and fight for Turkey in Manbij and Afrin against YPG. Also SAA and its allies can fight elsewhere like Idlib but first of all, we need to ask a question. Do these groups want to retreat or do they want to die in Aleppo? It looks like the second option. These groups aren't doing anything except giving casualties every day.

    d_taddei2 wrote:After its liberated which will be the next target?
    I think Idlıb or Raqqa.
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    Post  VladimirSahin Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Metis-M1s are great weapons sure and you could get 20 Metis-M1s for one Javelin but... America has the budget to use these weapons in standard service. I mean think about it... A Javelin operator is going to lock on to a target fire it, and he's out of there.

    Lets be honest... the only targets you can get a proper lock on is a car or a tank or some other armoured vehicle.

    Such weapons are used most of the time against MG or sniper positions or targets in a room in a building.

    Against a speeding car or truck it is serious overkill and the fire and forget capability is useable but totally unnecessary and expensive.

    Against a sniper or MG position or window in a building the fire and forget capability is totally useless buts still expensive.

    The only time it makes sense is against an armour target that is firing back and for the price you could have Javelin at 2km from the target or Kornet 5-7km from the target... similar flight time as the Kornet is much faster... and in a big fight... ie WWIII a thermal sight looking at the target it is attacking means IR dazzlers would be effective more often than not... especially in conjunction with smoke... things Kornet would ignore.

    I am not suggesting it is faulty... but it is certainly not the amazing super weapon the US seems to think it is.

    The tests I saw they had a bank of hair dryers heating up target T-54s so the system could get a lock... a bit of vegetation as camo and it would be useless.

    It would be a SACLOS missile like Metis.... but much more expensive.

    Well you know the Javelin should only be put into the category of the Metis-M1 since they have similar ranges, the Kornet should be compared to the TOW-2B(A) Sure during this conflict it is cheaper to use weapons like Konkurs (AT-4Cs) but if that's on hand you use that.

    We can't simply compare these weapons by what's in service or not, you should compare them to their counterparts based on the range and class of the weapon. The Milan missed in the video, and the Javelin hit. Saved a lot of lives. Sure a Metis-M1 could have shredded it as well but so could the Milan.

    I don't think it's fair that a weapon like the Javelin gets criticized even though it was used perfectly, for example in the video. And you know I don't buy into that western hype stuff. I'm just trying to give out my point. I get your point that it's very expensive, but it's also pretty good at what it does. In conventional roles it's even better... Top attack on that weapon negates any armor on any tank or armored vehicle. So of course it's not a godly weapon but it offers many capabilities to the user, or formation it's being used in.
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    Post  calm Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:33 am

    New batch of yung soldiers arrived to Kweirs

    meanwhile
    Syrian MOD : Eastern Aleppo CS , Syrian Air forces Destroyed 10 ISIS cars near Dier Hafer , and 7 near Al-Soos Hill east of Kwers Airport.
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 Cx02TvuXcAARO82
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 Cx02SeTWIAUMuJJ
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:58 am

    i presume that once Khan Shih has fully surrendered and the terrorists have left that the remaining areas of Moqilbiah, Zakiyah, and Tiabah (currently a truce) will also give up???? no mention of it but surely this will follow if it hasn't already happened.

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 7577810
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:18 am

    Well you know the Javelin should only be put into the category of the Metis-M1 since they have similar ranges, the Kornet should be compared to the TOW-2B(A) Sure during this conflict it is cheaper to use weapons like Konkurs (AT-4Cs) but if that's on hand you use that.

    Dragging it back to topic, the Javelin is not affordable by any faction in Syria except terrorist forces (who don't really pay for it) or the US special forces.

    In this case the Javelin is ideal for the role of hitting incoming IEDs, but only if the US is paying for it. In terms of a weapon system it is very much a compromised design that is at its best taking out moving vehicle targets... especially in the ambush situation.

    In fact the biggest negative of the system is that it is pretty much ideal for the terrorists, so having it there risks them capturing them and making use of them against friendly forces.

    It uses thermal imagers in the launcher and the missile itself to try to keep the user safe by allowing a fire and forget operation so the user can bug out as soon as they fire... much like an unguided RPG over much shorter ranges.

    A much heavier system offers the same operational safety by putting 6+km between the operator and target and a much higher flight speed.

    I appreciate what you are saying and if they replaced the Thermal Imager seeker with a CCD chip like a cheap video camera that was sensitive in IR wavelengths and visible light wavelengths and put a simple computer on board with image processing software like you get in modern phones you could have a fire and forget missile with much better performance at a fraction of the cost... which is what I suspect the Russians are working on at the moment.

    I rather suspect their next ATGM will be a diving top attack missile much like Javelin but with a much cheaper sensor that may use a drone to help find targets.

    Whether it uses a datalink or just software to find its target will be interesting.

    What I am saying is that Javelin would be very useful if it was much cheaper and able to detect and lock a wider range of targets.

    Russian TV guided missiles like Kh-29 can be locked onto a vehicle or other point target but where a target is too well camouflaged it could also be locked on to an empty space in relation to the things around it... that level of technology should allow a specific window in a building to be targeted or a tree or log bunker.


    We can't simply compare these weapons by what's in service or not, you should compare them to their counterparts based on the range and class of the weapon. The Milan missed in the video, and the Javelin hit. Saved a lot of lives. Sure a Metis-M1 could have shredded it as well but so could the Milan.

    Well that raises the question... what should they be using. In afghanistan the Soviets used SPG-9 recoilless rifles and ZU-23 light cannon. It seems the terrorists are armouring their VIEDs so PKs and SVDs are not good enough.

    Personally I think Metis would be the best option... of course along with mines and other countermeasures... but then even a BRDM-2 with a 14.5mm HMG in a stabilised mount and night optics, but it depends on how much you want to spend and of course it has to be manned by competant users who know what they are doing and wont panic... to be honest I can't say what I might do in that sort of situation...

    but it's also pretty good at what it does. In conventional roles it's even better... Top attack on that weapon negates any armor on any tank or armored vehicle. So of course it's not a godly weapon but it offers many capabilities to the user, or formation it's being used in.

    But that is the point... a widely deployed short/medium range man portable ATGM should be more than just a top attack weapon against armoured targets too heavily protected for standard ATGMs to penetrate from the front. The vast majority of the time it wont be used against any sort of enemy armour... cars, trucks, buses, MG positions, sniper positions, just plain enemy firing positions, any group of enemy troops.

    For attacking that Abrams or T-90 in a built up area it is ideal for everything else it is SACLOS or expensive over kill.

    Using a Metis-M1 instead would result in very much the same results most of the time except you can use dozens of them because you can afford hundreds instead of dozens.

    To be honest I am very surprised the Milan missed... is there any information about who was at the controls?

    In terms of performance of course the fire and forget mode of Javelin would be good for semi trained users... making good results easier to achieve assuming they don't break them. I would suspect a special forces operator with Milan would have as good a kill rate as any operator of Javelin.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:31 am

    Javelin comparable to the Metis? Wat?

    On weight alone the Javelin is as heavy as the Early Kornet configuration...

    A battle ready Javelin System complement will weigh about 30 kg. CLU+Missile 23 kg + the batteries. Granted one is enough and it weighs 1200gr.

    Comparatively a Kornet firing post is at 29/32 kg depending on IR/NV or not.

    A BGM-71 ready to fire is 41 KG. And that's with the TOW1 variant. You can go up to 44 Kg with the TOW2B.

    For laughters, Metis-M1=8kg. Konkurs-M 15.5 KG. Original Metis-6.5kg.


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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:43 pm

    dragging back to topic Rolling Eyes Off Topic i thought this topic was about "Syrian civil war news" not on on Javelin and Metis but maybe i am wrong dunno scratch
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:54 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:dragging back to topic Rolling Eyes  Off Topic   i thought this topic was about "Syrian civil war news" not on on Javelin and Metis but maybe i am wrong dunno scratch

    Yeah, first Kuznetzov BS now this. Knock it off already.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:56 pm

    back on topic cheers

    Syrian army says has formed volunteer corps to fight militants
    Syria’s army said on Tuesday it had formed a new corps made of volunteers to fight alongside its soldiers and allies “to eradicate terrorism”. In response to the rapid developments of events, to support the successes of armed forces and “to meet people’s wishes to put an end to terrorist acts in the Syrian Arab Republic, the general command of the armed forces announces the formation of a Fifth Stormtrooper Corps of volunteers,” an army statement said.

    https://www.rt.com/news/line/

    and


    Obama believes Syrian army will take Aleppo.
    Outgoing US President Barack Obama, speaking at a summit of Pacific leaders in Peru on Sunday, expressed his belief that Syrian forces will take Aleppo because of its backing from Russia and Iran.

    "Once Russia and Iran made a decision to back Assad in a brutal air campaign... it was very hard to see a way in which even a trained and committed moderate opposition could hold its ground for long periods of time,” he said.

    Russia has repeatedly called for the US to identify the moderate opposition that is often spoken about, but Washington is yet to deliver a list.
    "I am not optimistic about the short-term prospects in Syria," Obama continued.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/obama-believes-syrian-army-will-take-aleppo/
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    Post  calm Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:38 pm

    G.C. of #SAA announce formation of 5th Storming Corps (Volunteers)
    Command: eradication of terrorism from entire #Syrian territory

    Reports : SAA 5th new legion to be fully trained ,equipped and paid by Syria's friends
    -referring to Russia

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 Cx4r6vlUcAAX7aE
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:17 pm

    calm wrote:G.C. of #SAA announce formation of 5th Storming Corps (Volunteers)
    Command: eradication of terrorism from entire #Syrian territory

    Reports : SAA 5th new legion to be fully trained ,equipped and paid by Syria's friends
    -referring to Russia

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 16 Cx4r6vlUcAAX7aE


    Or Iran
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:24 am

    Off topic reply deleted...

    This is the Syrian Civil War thread... keep to topic or expect your post to be deleted.

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