Project 20836 Derzkiy-class modular Corvette

SeigSoloyvov wrote:That would require making the ship bigger, the ship has what it's going to get the only way they can add more weapons is by removing utility and the only way they will get more utility is by removing what few weapons it has.

Peŕrier wrote:
Could you be so kind to list any warship class in the World with same displacement +- 200 tonnes more heavily armed?

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
Very well let us look at another Russian ship, a frigate class the Grigorovich, now the frigate is about 400 tons heavier thats not huge in ship mass so they are fairly similar sized ships.

one is 3600ish the other is about 4k even fully load.

I am copy to copy and past their weapons exactly so no one can say "American BS"

for the frigate

1 × 100 mm A-190 Arsenal naval gun
1 × 8 UKSK 3S14 VLS cells for Kalibr and Oniks and Zircon
2 × 12 3S90M Shtil-1 VLS cells
2 × Kashtan CIWS
8 × Igla-1 (SA-16)
2 × 2 533 mm torpedo tubes
1 × RBU-6000 rocket launcher

1 Chopper (also has ASW ability)


for the "corvette"

1 × 100 mm A-190
2 × 30 mm AK-630M CIWS
2 × 14.5 mm MTPU machine guns
Redut medium-range air defense system (2 × 8 cells)
Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes (provided by choppers only)

2 Choppers

Kalibers, it can mount these in containers only but then it must sacrifice things to mount them


OR we can look at their problem frigate

1 × 130mm Amethyst/Arsenal A-192M naval gun with rate of fire of 45 rds per minute [10]
16 (2 × UKSK VLS cells fitted with P-800 Oniks (SS-N-26) and/or Kalibr missile system (SS-N-27)
32 (4 × Redut VLS cells housing 9M96, 9M96M, 9M96D/9M96DM(M2) family of missiles and/or quad-packed 9M100 short range missiles
2 × Palash CIWS
2 × 4 330mm torpedo tubes for Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes
2 × 14.5mm MTPU pedestal machine guns

1 Chopper

Yes this frigate is about 1k tons heavier but again in terms of ship weight that isn't massive infact the Gorshkov's bema is only 4 meters longer then the Derk and it's length is only about 80ft longer then the Derk's. The only reason is weighs 1k more is because of howmuch they packed into it weapon wise.

Now both frigates out class the Derk in combat ability but the Derk outclasses them in the utility if offers the navy.

Peŕrier wrote:No, the real problem was the the projects developed in the early 90ies, like the 20380, got too long to be built given both the dilapidated state of most russian yards and the willingness to grant almost any shipyard in Russia its slice from the pie.................

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:That would require making the ship bigger, the ship has what it's going to get the only way they can add more weapons is by removing utility and the only way they will get more utility is by removing what few weapons it has.

20386? 22160 or both?  in any case perhaps is is better to go on fully modular design with many container bays and very few weapons then poor defense weapons and moderate modules' space? OK but I am not admiral

Peŕrier wrote:
Could you be so kind to list any warship class in the World with same displacement +- 200 tonnes more heavily armed?

French ! any of them are always better. Rich man's fleet for conquering and controlling world oceans!

SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............
Well has stated the Derk's are weakly armed for a ship of their size but they weren't built to be frontline combat ships, they basically support vessels. you should not compare them to outright combat ships,

PapaDragon wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............
Well has stated the Derk's are weakly armed for a ship of their size but they weren't built to be frontline combat ships, they basically support vessels. you should not compare them to outright combat ships,

So kinda like Absalon-class but only smaller?

Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.

I seriously love this ship. Weapons don't need to sit on the ship all the freaking time. Multi-role and Modular is the future!

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.

I seriously love this ship. Weapons don't need to sit on the ship all the freaking time. Multi-role and Modular is the future!

Even if they did that it would not equal a Gork's weapon count, has stated prior if you want the utility that is going to cost you weaponry, but if you want weapons that is going to cost you utility, you cannot have a ship at like 5k tons that have the Gork weapon count and Derk's utility ability, that simply cannot be done

You cannot have one ship does it all, that simply compromises the ship trying to jam everything into one package

Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.
..........

PapaDragon wrote:

Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.
..........

They tried same thing already with Steregushi and Gremashi, it just doesn't work

They need several different sizes and ranges, no going around it

Isos wrote:Again the syndrome of "small ships with a litle more space can replace every other ship" ...

Derzki is 109m and is a corvette. Gorshkov is a frigate and is much better than a corvette.

If you make it bigger it becomes a Gorshkov.

Corvettes are supposed to be  smaller with smaller crew and smaller endurence just to be cheaper and easier to operate. They are between Karakurt which will be very limited ships but very cheap to operate and gorshkovs which are expensive to operate and used for other tasks.

If you have all three in black see fleet and you detect a US ship. You send first coast guards with patrol ship to see what's going on.

Then you send a karakurt and if it doesn't leave and you know you will need to spend more time watching it, you send a Derzki equiped with kalibrs (if it is a sub you send it with anti sub kalibrs) and call back the karakurt.

If the US ship start acting stupidly you call back the corvette in a safe zone and send a Gorshkov and the karakurt with some medicines (oniks) to join the derzki and put the medicines in the stupid ship togather.


If a big ship like a frigate or destroyer does this it will be expensive because it is a bigger ship with bigger engines and bigger crew. Only US navy use 1 type of ship for everything and they soend a lot to use an aegis ship to watch another ship.

And weapons are not the only thing that matters. Radars on a frigate are generaly better than those on a corvette. For steregouchshy I heard the radar is an updated bigger pantsir radar and it uses only the 40km 9M96 missiles while gorshkov can use the 120km.

Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

you mean the La Fayette? that's the only general purpose ship they have side the horizons.

The Fayette is also way smaller than a Gork.

The other ships are specialized for anti-sub or Anti-air

Not la fayette. The horizon class. Only 32 VLS for 16 aster 15 and 16 for aster 30 or cruise missiles + 8 exocet. Gorshkov is smaller and has 16 kalibr + 32 redut.

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

you mean the La Fayette? that's the only general purpose ship they have side the horizons.

The Fayette is also way smaller than a Gork.

The other ships are specialized for anti-sub or Anti-air

Not la fayette. The horizon class. Only 32 VLS for 16 aster 15 and 16 for aster 30 or cruise missiles + 8 exocet. Gorshkov is smaller and has 16 kalibr + 32 redut.

Um what? they have a 48 cell dude....plus 8 anti ship missiles, plus two 76mm guns, torp tubes,

The horizon was also built to be an Anti-Air frigate mainly so they put more anti-air missiles on it then anything, I think that was stupid sure but the horizon's vastly defeats the Gork in Anti-air ability

I know what ship you mean and yeah the FREMM has much more weaponry than a Derk

Even the British  Type 23 frigate has more weapons, so does the Chinese Type 054A frigate and i know someone will say "it's not a frigate" it's the size of a frigate so I will call it a frigate

I am sorry to people here but the derk is under armed for its size that is simply not debatable.

Yeah sorry I was talking about the Aquitaine class which more known in france by FREMM.

I'm talking about gorshkov which is a real frigate and a decent size. More weapons than a FREMM. Horizon are destroyer by nato standards btw.

You can compare derzki to a Gowind which is French big corvette 102m while derzki is 109m according to wiki instead of take frigates like type 23 or type 054A just so that numbers are good for your arguments.

Gowind is also a small frigates by your standard. 102m for 2500 t.

I know what ship you mean and yeah the FREMM has much more weaponry than a Derk

Even the British Type 23 frigate has more weapons