Project 20836 Derzkiy-class modular Corvette

Pr. 20386 (3400 T) and Pr. 11356 (4000 T) are at about the same price.

The Pr. 20386 has superior stealth characteristics, newer generation sensors, newer generation SAMs, more advanced technology, more advanced propulsion, smaller crew, lower fuel consumption and better ability to deploy special forces. If the mission requires it, it can also carry containerized KALIBR.

Pr. 11356 is a fine and capable ship but it is yesterday's ship. Pr. 20386 is tomorrow's ship and the way forward.

Compared to the Pr. 20380 (2200 T), the Pr.20386 costs about 50% more. Compared to the Pr. 20385 (2500 T), it costs only slightly more. But the Pr. 20386 offers better sea worthiness thanks to its larger displacement.

The Navy wants to go ahead with the Pr. 20386. If you guys still disagree, please write a letter to the Admirals in the Glavkomand.

Jokes apart, it looks really gorgeus.

I hope new and detailed renderings will emerge in the near future.

hoom wrote:

It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.

I think you misunderstood, I'm saying there is no 2nd helo, the door (at least as rendered there) is too short to move a big chopper through.

No better capabilities? A brand new multi-frequency AESA setup, extra SAMs, Kalibr capability, faster top speed, better endurance & multi-mission bay don't count as better capabilities?
Edit: think of 20386 as a GP frigate rather than an ASW corvette.

Door is definitely big enough to move chopper through. That bay is supposed to receive different equipment on the fly so door size accommodates that.

Also, helicopter can't be serviced in that bay, it's too tight, it needs to be moved to the back section for maintenance and checkup.

Also, they can simultaneously use Ka-27 + Ka-226 combo. One for ASW other for general S&R work. Extra simplicity.

Nope, if the rendering is true, back is more cramped than the helo bay, and there would even be no room at all to detach the rotor shaft.

In the bay at least, opening the roof would enable rotor removal.

Maybe not that practical but always better than nothing.

PapaDragon wrote:
Door is definitely big enough to move chopper through. That bay is supposed to receive different equipment on the fly so door size accommodates that.

Also, helicopter can't be serviced in that bay, it's too tight, it needs to be moved to the back section for maintenance and checkup.

Also, they can simultaneously use Ka-27 + Ka-226 combo. One for ASW other for general S&R work. Extra simplicity.

So far it is either 4 kalibrs or 1 helo . No place fo anything else. Where do you get info about Ka-226?! OK this is only my opinion. I am no admiral IMHO not worth experiment resources it requires.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......
So far it is either 4 kalibrs or 1 helo . No place fo anything else. Where do you get info about Ka-226?! OK this is only my opinion. I am no admiral IMHO not worth experiment resources it requires.

You seem to be right. So those ships would be preloaded for either ASW or anti-ship/land attack before departure.

Still it's a bit wasteful not to simply install bit taller doors, would do wonders for flexibility. As for Ka-226, it was just me being creative.

And if helicopter is permanently parked there then what's the point of those two containers in the back?

no room at all to detach the rotor shaft.

yeah looks like it might maybe fit through without the rotor shaft but I presume thats not the sort of thing you would do at sea for storage.

Still it's a bit wasteful not to simply install bit taller doors, would do wonders for flexibility. As for Ka-226, it was just me being creative.

I think the limit is the yellow module/container gantry system, probably a Ka-226 would still be too tall.

And if helicopter is permanently parked there then what's the point of those two containers in the back?

Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.

hoom wrote:...................
Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.

Another question:

If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

yeah looks like it might maybe fit through without the rotor shaft but I presume thats not the sort of thing you would do at sea for storage

No, I didn't meant the helicopter gas to be stored without its rotor.

I meant that in case maintainance work in the transmission would be required, It would not possibile ti remove the rotor shaft, unless opening the roof to grant the required clearance.

Any other maintenance work, blades' detachment as well, could be performed without too much fuss.

PapaDragon wrote:

hoom wrote:...................
Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.

Another question:

If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr family. So yes it could target a submarine if it carries uksk.

Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

Isos wrote:................
There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr family. So yes it could target a submarine if it carries uksk.

I know about that, what I mean was could vessel without helicopter or torpedo UKSK fight off submarine somehow?

Isos wrote:......Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

Yes but those launchers will be in use for decades on quite a few ships and at some point Kh-35 will be long in the tooth so developing something new that fits Uran launcher should be prudent.

PapaDragon wrote:

Another question:

If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

Then only answer I can see is UAV gizmos in 2 extra 20ft containers

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:................
There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr family. So yes it could target a submarine if it carries uksk.

I know about that, what I mean was could vessel without helicopter or torpedo UKSK fight off submarine somehow?

They have SIGMA management system so they should be able to get informations from other plateforms.

Isos wrote:......Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

Yes but those launchers will be in use for decades on quite a few ships and at some point Kh-35 will be long in the tooth so developing something new that fits Uran launcher should be prudent.

I don't think they will. UKSK is Worth the money, Urans not really. Kh-35 is good enough for small battles and specially that now NATO frigates are more and more armed with CIWS as main anti air defence. What they should do is develop a new anti ship missiles for their helicopter. Kh-35 can be used by ka-32 but it's a big missiles and they don't operate ka-32. Something smaller and faster would be better. And their kamovs can already deliver torpedos.

There are Armchair Admirals and there are real Admirals.

The real Admirals of the RuNavy classify the ships by Ranks.

The Pr.20386 ships are not first rank ships. The first rank surface ships are the Kuznetsov, Pyotr Veliky, Nakhimov, Slava class cruisers.
The Udaloy and Sovremenny destroyers are 2nd rank ships, so is the Gorshkov.
I don't know how they will classify the Pr. 20386, probably 3rd rank.
Do not think of this class of ships as the spearhead of the navy.

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:................
There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr ..............

......

Isos wrote:......Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

Yes but those launchers will be in use for decades on quite a few ships and at some point Kh-35 will be long in the tooth so developing something new that fits Uran launcher should be prudent.

Regarding Kh-35 Uran. It is one of the best subsonic anti-ship missiles (if not the best). Range of latest version of 260 km is sufficient for most (if not all) naval battles in Baltic and Black Seas. Like all Russian/Soviet Anti-ship missiles it has anti-land strike mode.
It is not supersonic version of Kalibr or Onyx or upcoming Zircon. But it is very compact, flies very low, is faster than most other subsonic missiles. It is deadly against NATO ships that even have CIWS. By the way, Gun-based CIWS are not as great as advertised, they are a desperate last ditch attempt to save a ship who's SAMs have missed to intercept the AShM.

Anyways, the Pr.20386's main missions will not be Anti-ship warfare. Leave that to the Karakurts and other vessels. There are many other missions to do in a Navy.

Regarding ASW, the pr.20386 will use Paket torpedos and Ka-27 helicopters.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Another question:

If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

Then only answer  I can see is UAV gizmos in 2 extra 20ft containers

I knew you could think straight when you are not drunk

The multi-use under deck space will also be used for unmanned warfare (UAVs and Robot submarines) of various types. This type of warfare is going to be very popular and interesting in the coming years and decades. As I mentioned in a previous post, the pr.20386 is designed for the future.

I was thinking about it a bit and it just occurred to me that load-out of these ship would actually be determined by where they operate at that particular time. Basically they will have two modes:

1) Missions close to Russia: in this case these ships will operate alone and their primary mission will be anti-sub work which mean that they will be carrying ASW helicopter while space behind it will be reserved for support and maintenance of that helicopter (weapons, fuel, spare parts, etc...)  

2) Missions further away from Russia: in this case they will operate as part of groups of vessels which would include larger ships like Udalois, Gorshkovs or Super-Gorshkovs which already have one or two ASW helicopters available each. In this case 20386s would forgo all anti-sub equipment as they wouldn't need it because other vessels would providing protection from submarines (and usually they would also have friendly submarine tagging along as well)

For these missions  they would carry UKSK container while space behind would be used to store extra supplies needed to keep up with these other long-range ships for longer periods of time without need to return to port.

TheArmenian wrote:...Anyways, the Pr.20386's main missions will not be Anti-ship warfare. Leave that to the Karakurts and other vessels....

Agreed in full.

And now that you mentioned Karakurts, paring 20386 with one or two Karakurts and maybe even Kilo submarine would make for excellent small naval units. 20386 handles anti-sub and anti-air work while Karakurts handle anti-ship part. Kilos do their standard thing.

They perfectly complement each other.

TheArmenian wrote:.............The multi-use under deck space will also be used for unmanned warfare (UAVs and Robot submarines) of various types. This type of warfare is going to be very popular and interesting in the coming years and decades. As I mentioned in a previous post, the pr.20386 is designed for the future.

Correct, we all missed that part. Those two side-bays are ideal for deploying underwater drones. They were definitely thinking ahead with these ships.

They were definitely thinking ahead with these ships.

More like looking at LCS, taking the good ideas, fixing the stupid & customising relevant to Russian domestic needs.

The big concerns are:
Its expensive when 20385 was already considered too expensive. (but as before if you consider it relative to Frigate classes it looks better)
Will the Zaslon radar system actually emerge & work properly/with 9M96 (&/or 9M96 actually eventually work properly depending on what the actual issue is).
Currently the only actual known container module being developed is Kalibr & a working example of that hasn't actually been demonstrated yet.
New novel propulsion system.
The hullshape is actually pretty novel, does have some risk.

To a certain extent though I still think just building more 11356 could be quicker & more effective for similar price.

hoom wrote:...
The big concerns are:
Its expensive when 20385 was already considered too expensive. (but as before if you consider it relative to Frigate classes it looks better)...

Honestly, I haven't seen a single defense item that is not considered too expensive anymore. Borei-too expensive, Yasen-too expensive , Gorshkov-too expensive, Armata-too expensive, Su-57-too expensive. Everything seems to be too expensive so they should just accept the fact that it's all expensive and start buying that stuff.

hoom wrote:...Will the Zaslon radar system actually emerge & work properly/with 9M96 (&/or 9M96 actually eventually work properly depending on what the actual issue is). Currently the only actual known container module being developed is Kalibr & a working example of that hasn't actually been demonstrated yet. New novel propulsion system.The hullshape is actually pretty novel, does have some risk....

It's not optional. They have to get all this to work otherwise they are screwed. Time waits for no one. Everyone else is making it work.

hoom wrote:...To a certain extent though I still think just building more 11356 could be quicker & more effective for similar price...

We know for a fact that it will not be quicker, those 3 unfinished 11356 are still rotting away unfinished in shipyards.

And they have to move on at some point. If they want to keep using old stuff they might as well just resume building Krivak-class frigates. At this point in time it's practically same thing.





ALSO REQUEST FOR MODS:

Can you rename this tread to Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate ?

We call every every other ship class by name and it would make commenting easier without getting lost in numbers

TheArmenian wrote:
Regarding ASW, the pr.20386 will use Paket torpedos and Ka-27 helicopters.

Yup. But then we got all modularity in 2 x20ft containers right?  40ft container place is used by Ka-27. Pretty weak for specialized antisub version frankly speaking.  Withsuch size why not more container bay were added remains unsolved mystery

TheArmenian wrote:

I knew you could think straight when you are not drunk

The multi-use under deck space will also be used for unmanned warfare (UAVs and Robot submarines) of various types. This type of warfare is going to be very popular and interesting in the coming years and decades. As I mentioned in a previous post, the pr.20386 is designed for the future.

When I drink always straight from bottle. And if form glass then я после первого стакана не закусываю

I am sure this is about future but I hope UKSK will beinstalled since 260km is less even then SM-6 range.

The ship is weakly armed yes for its size there is no denying that it requires containers which then it must choose what it wants to get more proper weapons for a ship of that size even then it's still rather light.

That said the ship has good utility, it's best to think of this has a big support vessel with good multi-function characteristics.

In a warship sense it's poor, however in a none combat roll, it's a good ship.

The thing is with ships unless you make them huge, you have to pick what you want do you want a ship armed with loads of weapons but is useless at anything other then fighting or do you want a ship that you can get creative within it's use etc drones and what not.

With the Derzkii they went with the utility mindset. Which isn't bad.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The ship is weakly armed yes for its size there is no denying that it requires containers which then it must choose what it wants to get more proper weapons for a ship of that size even then it's still rather light.

That said the ship has good utility, it's best to think of this has a big support vessel with good multi-function characteristics.

In a warship sense it's poor, however in a none combat roll, it's a good ship.

The thing is with ships unless you make them huge, you have to pick what you want do you want a ship armed with loads of weapons but is useless at anything other then fighting or do you want a ship that you can get creative within it's use etc drones and what not.

With the Derzkii they went with the utility mindset. Which isn't bad.

True, in this sense it similar to newest German frigates. I hope though that with next ships in series she will be better armed and perhaps more modules could fit in? BTW in 22160 project there is place for 2x60ft containers and 60days autonomy? hmm interesting isnt it?

That would require making the ship bigger, the ship has what it's going to get the only way they can add more weapons is by removing utility and the only way they will get more utility is by removing what few weapons it has.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The ship is weakly armed yes for its size there is no denying that it requires containers which then it must choose what it wants to get more proper weapons for a ship of that size even then it's still rather light.

That said the ship has good utility, it's best to think of this has a big support vessel with good multi-function characteristics.

In a warship sense it's poor, however in a none combat roll, it's a good ship.

The thing is with ships unless you make them huge, you have to pick what you want do you want a ship armed with loads of weapons but is useless at anything other then fighting or do you want a ship that you can get creative within it's use etc drones and what not.

With the Derzkii they went with the utility mindset. Which isn't bad.

Could you be so kind to list any warship class in the World with same displacement +- 200 tonnes more heavily armed?

Better again, listing which kind of weapon systems it got and what its real endurance is?

Just to give some backing to such kind of statements, of course.

And of course, nutshells armed for a one day mission like Fast Attack Crafts and the likes do not count, not now and never neither in the past nor in the future, because they were, are and will be only the poor man's answer to everybody else naval power, and are frankly speaking rubbish like everything else jeune-ecole like ship, now and ever.

Peŕrier wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The ship is weakly armed yes for its size there is no denying that it requires containers which then it must choose what it wants to get more proper weapons for a ship of that size even then it's still rather light.

That said the ship has good utility, it's best to think of this has a big support vessel with good multi-function characteristics.

In a warship sense it's poor, however in a none combat roll, it's a good ship.

The thing is with ships unless you make them huge, you have to pick what you want do you want a ship armed with loads of weapons but is useless at anything other then fighting or do you want a ship that you can get creative within it's use etc drones and what not.

With the Derzkii they went with the utility mindset. Which isn't bad.

Could you be so kind to list any warship class in the World with same displacement +- 200 tonnes more heavily armed?

Better again, listing which kind of weapon systems it got and what its real endurance is?

Just to give some backing to such kind of statements, of course.

And of course, nutshells armed for a one day mission like Fast Attack Crafts and the likes do not count, not now and never neither in the past nor in the future, because they were, are and will be only the poor man's answer to everybody else naval power, and are frankly speaking rubbish like everything else jeune-ecole like ship, now and ever.

Very well let us look at another Russian ship, a frigate class the Grigorovich, now the frigate is about 400 tons heavier thats not huge in ship mass so they are fairly similar sized ships.

one is 3600ish the other is about 4k even fully load.

I am copy to copy and past their weapons exactly so no one can say "American BS"

for the frigate

1 × 100 mm A-190 Arsenal naval gun
1 × 8 UKSK 3S14 VLS cells for Kalibr and Oniks and Zircon
2 × 12 3S90M Shtil-1 VLS cells
2 × Kashtan CIWS
8 × Igla-1 (SA-16)
2 × 2 533 mm torpedo tubes
1 × RBU-6000 rocket launcher

1 Chopper (also has ASW ability)


for the "corvette"

1 × 100 mm A-190
2 × 30 mm AK-630M CIWS
2 × 14.5 mm MTPU machine guns
Redut medium-range air defense system (2 × 8 cells)
Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes (provided by choppers only)

2 Choppers

Kalibers, it can mount these in containers only but then it must sacrifice things to mount them


OR we can look at their problem frigate

1 × 130mm Amethyst/Arsenal A-192M naval gun with rate of fire of 45 rds per minute [10]
16 (2 × UKSK VLS cells fitted with P-800 Oniks (SS-N-26) and/or Kalibr missile system (SS-N-27)
32 (4 × Redut VLS cells housing 9M96, 9M96M, 9M96D/9M96DM(M2) family of missiles and/or quad-packed 9M100 short range missiles
2 × Palash CIWS
2 × 4 330mm torpedo tubes for Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes
2 × 14.5mm MTPU pedestal machine guns

1 Chopper

Yes this frigate is about 1k tons heavier but again in terms of ship weight that isn't massive infact the Gorshkov's bema is only 4 meters longer then the Derk and it's length is only about 80ft longer then the Derk's. The only reason is weighs 1k more is because of howmuch they packed into it weapon wise.

Now both frigates out class the Derk in combat ability but the Derk outclasses them in the utility if offers the navy.