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Log inThe 10 was some sort of a promise by a defense ministry official to the shipyard workers. The order has not been placed yet.
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Project 20836 Derzkiy-class modular Corvette
TheArmenian- Posts : 1880
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flamming_python- Posts : 9516
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- Post n°352
Re: Project 20836 Derzkiy-class modular Corvette
flamming_python Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:53 am
GarryB wrote:Well the thing is that modularity and serial production is one thing, but sometimes conditions make certain features more desirable than others.
What I mean is that right now the Russian Army has decided on four vehicle families... Armata heavy tracked, Kurganets medium tracked, Boomerang medium wheeled, and Typhoon light wheeled and they are going to develop those families and expand them to pretty much replace all their existing vehicle types within reason... ie you wont see Yars on any of them as it is just too big, but they can replace all the MTLB based vehicles and BMP and BMD based vehicles and BTR based vehicles in their forces.
However for the arctic they have shown they prefer DT-10 and other two part articulated vehicles for that region because with the powered articulated joint that transfers power to the rear catapillar tracks it means they can self recover if they fall through the ice into the sea water which single hulled vehicles can't do generally...
That means basing APCs or IFV or even artillery vehicles on the border with Georgia might be Armata or Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon... but in the far north it will be DT-30 based platform.
What I am saying is that the Steregoushchy might be the standard Corvette for most places in Russia, but the Mercury might be optimised... perhaps for shallow waters and rivers like the Caspian sea, or perhaps good in colder weather for the far north perhaps...
If they make an order for the Mercury boats for a specific location we might have an idea in that regard... maybe they want them in the Baltics or BlackSea/Med?
The Mercury only makes sense procured in large numbers.
Same as the LCS.
A modular design will have a higher upfront cost, and one of the main criticisms is that if you're going to have modules swapped out depending on the mission, then what will the officers manning the modules that you leave behind be doing while you're out at sea?
This problem will be exasperated if there are only say 4-5 Mercuries in total, and spread out over 2-3 fleets. It will quickly become uneconomical to produce and continuously man the less-often used modules, and expensive to have to redeploy them between different fleets as necessary all the time.
But if there are say 5 Mercuries each in the Northern, Pacific and Baltic fleets; then modules will have a lot less downtime on average, they won't have to travel as often and the concept starts to make more sense.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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This isn't exactly like LCS
LCS is basically offshore patrol vessel in it's stock configuration and is completely dependant on mission modules for any serious functionality
Mercury on the other hand is fully functional anti-sub corvette even in it's stock version so modularity is more of a additional feature and future-proofing than core capability
And I am definitely convinced that ships after first one will be coming in expanded version
dino00- Posts : 1677
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Snorkeling: new polymers will hide corvettes from the enemy
In the construction of ships of the project 20386 use special radio-reflective materials
Project 20386 corvettes will disguise themselves from enemy radars. To do this, a special polymer coating will be applied to the ship's superstructure - it will allow you to absorb and disperse the energy of electronic radiation. Experts note that thanks to new materials and the characteristic broken forms of the corvette, its radar visibility will noticeably decrease. This will give the ship additional advantages in a clash with the enemy.Secret Polymers
A fundamental decision on the use of a new polymer material and coatings that make the ship invisible on enemy radars has already been made, sources in the military-industrial complex and the military department told Izvestia. As part of the development work, the first tests of samples of radio-reflecting components have already passed. They were prepared design documentation. The cost of the study was estimated at 1.6 million rubles (the contract is at the disposal of Izvestia).The exact composition of the new coating is unknown.
https://iz.ru/1013046/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi/v-plavanie-s-maskoi-novye-polimery-spriachut-korvety-ot-vraga
In the construction of ships of the project 20386 use special radio-reflective materials
Project 20386 corvettes will disguise themselves from enemy radars. To do this, a special polymer coating will be applied to the ship's superstructure - it will allow you to absorb and disperse the energy of electronic radiation. Experts note that thanks to new materials and the characteristic broken forms of the corvette, its radar visibility will noticeably decrease. This will give the ship additional advantages in a clash with the enemy.Secret Polymers
A fundamental decision on the use of a new polymer material and coatings that make the ship invisible on enemy radars has already been made, sources in the military-industrial complex and the military department told Izvestia. As part of the development work, the first tests of samples of radio-reflecting components have already passed. They were prepared design documentation. The cost of the study was estimated at 1.6 million rubles (the contract is at the disposal of Izvestia).The exact composition of the new coating is unknown.
https://iz.ru/1013046/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi/v-plavanie-s-maskoi-novye-polimery-spriachut-korvety-ot-vraga
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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dino00 wrote:Snorkeling: new polymers will hide corvettes from the enemy
In the construction of ships of the project 20386 use special radio-reflective materials
Project 20386 corvettes will disguise themselves from enemy radars. To do this, a special polymer coating will be applied to the ship's superstructure - it will allow you to absorb and disperse the energy of electronic radiation. Experts note that thanks to new materials and the characteristic broken forms of the corvette, its radar visibility will noticeably decrease. This will give the ship additional advantages in a clash with the enemy.......
Like I said first 20386 is a testbed for all the new stuff they have in the pipeline hence why they went with off-the-shelf weapons and sensors, no need for full package yet
Hole- Posts : 11097
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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Join date : 2015-04-26
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4 years and they don't even have the hull welded together?
I thought this thing had potential but after seeing this I can only ask why are they even bothering?
Is anyone even working on this? It looks abandoned
George1 likes this post
Isos- Posts : 11588
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There is space for 3 ships there.
LMFS- Posts : 5146
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PapaDragon wrote:
4 years and they don't even have the hull welded together?
I thought this thing had potential but after seeing this I can only ask why are they even bothering?
Is anyone even working on this? It looks abandoned
The main thing with the 20386 is the novelty of systems inside, welding some steel presents no difficulty but doing it without having all the stuffing right makes no much sense. So that may be a reason...
George1- Posts : 18496
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LMFS wrote:
The main thing with the 20386 is the novelty of systems inside,
it looks like an experimental version
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3859
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PapaDragon wrote:
4 years and they don't even have the hull welded together?
I thought this thing had potential but after seeing this I can only ask why are they even bothering?
Is anyone even working on this? It looks abandoned
They are last year the ships were stated to be at 12 percent readiness and that was after three years of work.....
They claim it will be commissioned by 2022 but with the pace, they are going I doubt that.
Isos- Posts : 11588
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The good thing is that they could stop this expensive useless class and use the hull for a normal Steregushchy ship.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3859
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Isos wrote:The good thing is that they could stop this expensive useless class and use the hull for a normal Steregushchy ship.
The class isn't useless.
Isos- Posts : 11588
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:Isos wrote:The good thing is that they could stop this expensive useless class and use the hull for a normal Steregushchy ship.
The class isn't useless.
As expensive as a Gorshkov. Totally useless.
x_54_u43- Posts : 336
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Join date : 2015-09-19
Yeah, god forbid Russia gets a ship with a somewhat modern propulsion layout.
Also, the entire fucking hull is done, and likely waiting for the composite superstructure from the same company that makes the 12700 Minesweepers, which makes a fuck ton of other composite superstructure for other vessels.
Of course, Papa Dragon making the standard Hydromajor-esque analysis lmao.
Also, the entire fucking hull is done, and likely waiting for the composite superstructure from the same company that makes the 12700 Minesweepers, which makes a fuck ton of other composite superstructure for other vessels.
Of course, Papa Dragon making the standard Hydromajor-esque analysis lmao.
Isos- Posts : 11588
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The hull is the easiest part... A modern shipyard can make this thing from the picture in 2 or 3 months.
x_54_u43- Posts : 336
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Isos wrote:The hull is the easiest part... A modern shipyard can make this thing from the picture in 2 or 3 months.
Source?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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x_54_u43 wrote:...Of course, Papa Dragon making the standard Hydromajor-esque analysis lmao.
Hey they are free to prove me wrong, it would make me the happiest camper in the woods
Isos- Posts : 11588
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x_54_u43 wrote:Isos wrote:The hull is the easiest part... A modern shipyard can make this thing from the picture in 2 or 3 months.
Source?
Source for what. It's just some metal welding.
Chinese, US and south korean shipyards make bigger ships in matters of 1-2 years. Go see on wikipedia the start of their ships and their launches. Arleigh burkes takes 1 years being 8 times bigger than this. Soviet used to make their destroyers in matter of 1-2 years too. Even the Kirovs were build in 3 years.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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It IS ridiculously slow progress.
It may be that they're waiting on development/manufacture of various sub-systems but also they're making ridiculously slow progress on the bare steel.
If it really costs same as Gorshkov thats far too much.
I thought it was supposed to be Grigorovich -> just build more 11356.
It may be that they're waiting on development/manufacture of various sub-systems but also they're making ridiculously slow progress on the bare steel.
If it really costs same as Gorshkov thats far too much.
I thought it was supposed to be Grigorovich -> just build more 11356.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3859
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Isos wrote:SeigSoloyvov wrote:Isos wrote:The good thing is that they could stop this expensive useless class and use the hull for a normal Steregushchy ship.
The class isn't useless.
As expensive as a Gorshkov. Totally useless.
I believe an admin said it best towards you Something about a very simplistic mindset with naval operations.
If you think this class is useless you really don't know as much as you think you do.
For the Record
Gorsh - 260M
Merc - 230M
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3859
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hoom wrote:It IS ridiculously slow progress.
It may be that they're waiting on development/manufacture of various sub-systems but also they're making ridiculously slow progress on the bare steel.
If it really costs same as Gorshkov thats far too much.
I thought it was supposed to be Grigorovich -> just build more 11356.
Why waste money on those...they are crappy frigates designed as nothing more than cheap stop-gap measure
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Because they're a mature design, seaworthy, with a decent SAM system, UKSK & solid ASW gear.
GarryB- Posts : 40436
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Complain complain complain.... perhaps they have forgotten how to wield... or perhaps they are dealing with problems they need to solve before they can complete the ship and so rather than keep internet fan boys happy with 50 empty hulls sitting on a pier somewhere rusting away, they are working on solving problems and getting technology to work the way it is supposed to before they build the ship it goes in... because if they can't get it to work perhaps they idea of teh ships doesn't make sense any more and having 50 hulls sitting waiting is a huge waste of time and money.
How about we give them some credit and let them get on with it.
How about we give them some credit and let them get on with it.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13456
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hoom wrote:Because they're a mature design, seaworthy, with a decent SAM system, UKSK & solid ASW gear.
They are so mature they will soon be obsolete
SAM system is Shtil which was pretty much bare basic when ships were built and time will not be improving it's prospects
And there is never fundamental truth that remains unchanged and one that killed the whole class at 3 hulls: THERE ARE NO ENGINES FOR IT (and never will be)
Dragging their feet on Mercury is dumb, trying to build Grigorevich again without engines is infinitely dumber
Back to Mercury: dose anyone else think that the hole for VLS installation on the ship is much larger than the official model would imply? Could they have made some changes on the go?