ALAMO wrote:Not that I feel a particular need to defend Russkies here bro, but ...
Re: France/Italy programs, we talk about two world-class marine powers, so there is nothing strange that they can construct&build relatively successful units.
France's and Italy's defense budgets combined are bigger than the Russian one.
Both nations are well established naval construction players for centuries, and none of them faced catastrophic events like the dissolution of the WarPac and the SU itself.
Russkie are being continuously deprived of the possibility of a stable fleet modernization program, and that is both obvious and notorious.
The 2014 coup was a giant blow to the Russian naval programs of all sorts, and I am impressed - frankly speaking - that they have managed to recover in a really short time.
Yet, FREMM is just an oversized equivalent of a Russian corvette.
It represents no bigger punch than 20380, objectively speaking.
From this perspective, Russians made no worse - 20380, 20385, 20386, 11356 ...
If we take let's say Horizon frigates, then again Russkie are not worse with 22350...
Just take a look at the submarine construction program - what the Russians do there is mindblowing. There is no equivalent in Europe for that, no matter that the European combined defense spending fourfold the Russian ones.
lancelot has a good point there.
Chinese are just steadily expanding their capabilities, and that reflects the general condition of China itself.
They became a global superpower in the last 2 decades and the biggest economy on the planet. They need a big, blue water navy because of the structure of the economy - big dependence on the sea route trade.
That includes both the things they export and the crucial resources that they need to import, including the supply from Africa.
It didn't take out of anywhere, you know. They needed time to master the situation, and a civilian construction peak was one of the reasons here. You need cadres to make a successful naval construction program, and you can't have those cadres with no big & effective marine construction sector. This is what Russkie have been building for more than a decade now, and belive me my friend, you will see the difference very soon.
It is a matter of priorities if you ask my opinion
Alamo, my friend, the small missile ships of project 22800 are a direct consequence of 2014 and the cessation of deliveries of gas turbines from Ukroshitstan and Zorya-Mashproekt. Therefore, project 11356R and 22350 frigates were left without power units. I'm just writing that a country that builds intercontinental ballistic missiles, strategic bombers, tons of tanks and armored vehicles of all kinds - should not have allowed itself to get into this position.
Since it is clear that there is no respect between the USA and Russia and there is no more agreement regarding long-range missiles, and therefore cruise missiles, then it is better to place two missiles on two or 4 trucks (depending on whether they are two or 4 Kalibr missiles) on truck, but to build small missile ships without sufficient navigation range, without serious radar systems, only with a close air defense system and without anti-submarine weapons.
To standardize and improve the two existing classes of ships, that is, the corvette and the frigate, while it is necessary to work on the third "link" called the destroyer. The fourth is the landing ships of project 11711. This is the only correct solution;
* The Chinese are building corvettes of the Type-056A project, which are not even servants to the Russian corvettes of the basic 20380 project (the 20385 is not even worth talking about in comparison with Type-056A), so the ideal solution is the 20386 corvette with two UKSK (16 missiles in total) and two VLS for the Redut (also 16 missiles) + Paket-NK for anti-submarine warfare. Also, these corvettes would carry the new "Otvet" torpedo rockets in their UKSK. In short; after 20385 you need to perfect 20386 (in constructin from 2016 !!!) or simply don't waste time and increase the production of 20385 corvettes and the corvette problem is solved..
* Project 22350 frigates; finally finish the testing of the gas turbine and reducer and start the large-scale construction of the frigates of this project. Given the small displacement of these frigates but their impressive arsenal, these frigates do not have a long sailing range - according to Russian sources, about 4,500 nautical miles at a sailing speed of about 14 knots.
* destroyers; Ships that would have a range of over 6,000 miles with an economic cruising speed of about 18 knots are not yet under construction in Russia. Project 1164 cruisers have an economical cruising speed of around 18 knots and a range of 6000+ nautical miles. Apart from a much longer sailing range, these ships would have at least twice as many UKSKs as the upgraded project 22350 frigates, which should have 24 (3 UKSKs). It is certain that these ships would also have a naval variant of the Pantsir or Tor-M2 system. And the ship's electronic equipment would be at a slightly higher level, with the possible possibility of carrying two helicopters.
* landing craft; it is necessary to continue with the construction of the additional number of this project 11711, while the ships of project 23900 are still far from the end of construction and with the construction of a solid air wing made of attack drones and helicopters, their application makes sense.
* FOREVER GOODBYE to ;Small missile ships of projects 21631 and 22800, as well as patrol ships of project 22160; insufficient sailing range, there are only extremely close range systems (at 21631 with Gibka system) and only Pantsir (22800 project and from the third ship), while 22160 has nothing. There are no anti-submarine weapons on those ships, while there are no missile weapons on the 22160, but it does have a helicopter.