Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

A1RMAN wrote:As time goes by, 2018 doesn't seems so far away.

What's your opinion on modernized 1144 potential against foreign fleets (excluding US)? While most of discussion is aimed at comparing Russian fleet to US fleet, lately it was "discovered" that there are potential clashes against other fleets - Turkish, for example.

While some of the upgrades that Nakhimov gonna get are still uncertain, we can already get pretty good idea what force it's gonna be after current "medium" modernization.

Many posters on russian forums are surprisingly negative to Orlan cruisers and express opinions varying from "They shouldn't have been built in the first place" to "This modernization is just money dump".
Calmer ones point that most important factor is price, and if the price is right all 4 Orlans should be repaired and modernized.

I think the important factor here is that Russia has substantial troubles with new ship building and it's safe to say has failed 2020 State Armaments Program in this area. It really hard to say now, when Russian will be able to build modern cruisers, destroyers or aircraft carriers. Most likely we can expect them to got into service not earlier than 2025, and produced enough for at least Northern Fleet after 2030.

If this prediction is right, there's no alternative to 1144, 1164 as the main surface ships. So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

Big_Gazza wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

Surely you are not serious with this question?? The Nakhimov is undergoing deep modernisation of weapons and sensors and comprehensive refurb of her propulsion and marine systems, and once back in service, she will be the most powerful surface combatant (non-carrier) on the planet.  I don't think there is any real doubt that Nakhimov and her sisters-ships are capable of fulfilling such a role.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

Surely you are not serious with this question?? The Nakhimov is undergoing deep modernisation of weapons and sensors and comprehensive refurb of her propulsion and marine systems, and once back in service, she will be the most powerful surface combatant (non-carrier) on the planet.  I don't think there is any real doubt that Nakhimov and her sisters-ships are capable of fulfilling such a role.

Problem is even if they modernize all four and they only confirmed two so far, all four will not be able to be a huge factor in a major naval battle. They would require at least 10 with high numbers of Destroyers, frigates etc has support.

It's a good ship no doubt but 4 ships alone cannot carry a war.

Big_Gazza wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

A1RMAN wrote:So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

Surely you are not serious with this question?? The Nakhimov is undergoing deep modernisation of weapons and sensors and comprehensive refurb of her propulsion and marine systems, and once back in service, she will be the most powerful surface combatant (non-carrier) on the planet.  I don't think there is any real doubt that Nakhimov and her sisters-ships are capable of fulfilling such a role.

Problem is even if they modernize all four and they only confirmed two so far, all four will not be able to be a huge factor in a major naval battle. They would require at least 10 with high numbers of Destroyers, frigates etc has support.

It's a good ship no doubt but 4 ships alone cannot carry a war.

No one is saying they will.  They will form the core of a task force....

Russian naval forces are intended to defend the Motherland in the event of large scale conflict, so such a task force will operate close to home waters and therefore under the umbrella of both land-based strike aircraft carrying stand-off weapons such as AShMs, and attack subs.  A few 1144 orlans operating with escorting destroyers and frigates, and a carrier fitted out for theatre air superiority and anti-sub warfare would be highly effective.  Regardless of how impressed the Yankistanis may be with their ponderous CBGs, any attempt at forcing entry into Russian home waters will result in these highly expensive and vulnerable vessels being show-cased on international media when their blazing wrecks are shown hull up, sinking at the bow, with their screws lazily turning in the air...

We are entering the era of long-range hypersonic and ballistic anti-ship missiles with smart guidance systems, and carriers are the technology of yester-year.  They may be potent against 3rd world nations or highly degraded 2nd world nations that lack the ability to defend themselves, but against a peer adversary, supercarriers are big slow vulnerable targets whose survivability will be next to non-existant.

The USN is already shitting its pants at the idea of challenging Chinas growing A2/AD capabilities in her near-abroad, and Russia will be no different.  The loss of just one supercarrier would be utterly DEVASTATING to the Uh'Murikkkan ego, as the USN has long held that its carriers are untouchable by mere mortals.  Prove this assertion to be just another example of baseless yankee boasting, and the world will see that the "Exceptional Nation" is naught but a pompous stuffed-shirt...

PapaDragon wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:.....

Problem is even if they modernize all four and they only confirmed two so far, all four will not be able to be a huge factor in a major naval battle. They would require at least 10 with high numbers of Destroyers, frigates etc has support.

It's a good ship no doubt but 4 ships alone cannot carry a war.

There are two scenarios:

1) War against countries that can be incinerated by this ship alone

2) War against countries that are too big for any Navy, where these (and other) ships will be redundant  and which will be over in 20 minutes-for everyone on the planet.

So this ship definitely has a purpose and that purpose lies in scenario no. 1

Big_Gazza wrote:There seems to be two distinct VLS designs for Kalibre/Klub/Oniks/Zircon etc.  The 3R-14UKSK-Kh is a 4-missile module based on a closed cylindrical housing, while the 3S-14 looks to be a 8-missile module based on a open structure.

The Nakhimov upgrade is using 3S-14 modules, and this is confirmed from public domain details of the purchase orders placed on the manufacturer.  The 3S-14 is also used on the Gorshkov & Grigorovich class judging by photos showing the lifting of the VLS module during vessel builds.

Possibly the 3S-14 is a redesign to simply the launcher?  

BTW the equivalent submarine VLS for the Yasen class is an altogether different design.  A possible config is given this article described as SM-315 (?).  This design could clearly be downsized to suit the available space in a Pr-494 Antei launch tube.



Finally, there are four (4) Kirovs available, but the Navy hasn't yet committed to rebuild either the Lazarev or Ushakov.  My view is that there is no rush on making this decision, and the Lazarev at least will depend on the success of AdN and PtG.  Lazarev looks to be in good structural condition, though Ushakov is said to have major reactor issues and the cost of rebuild may prove to be prohibitive.

Interestingly, the hull of the Ural SSV-33 is AFAIK still preserved after her radars and superstructure was deleted.  Its possible that she is being retained for a possible future rebuild?