Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

Not one active Admiral Gorshkov class frigate. Two. Yes the number is low.

They have five frigates and two nuclear icebreakers under construction at St. Petersburg. So the facilities are capable of building both frigates and cruisers at the same time. I am also fairly certain they have a lot of other shipyards they could use to build the frigates. Building the frigates at a single shipyard is never going to get them to the numbers required.

You might argue about cost. To keep costs down they would build either the frigates or the battlecruisers but not both at the same time.
If that was the reason then sure. But other countries seem to be a able to build both frigates and cruisers at the same time no?

If the delay in frigate construction is caused by a lack of gas turbine production rate, you have a completely independent production pipeline for nuclear power generation units.
A conventional 10000 tons cruiser which uses gas turbines will require four gas turbines. A nuclear battlecruiser twice the displacement will use two RITM-200 or a single RITM-400 nuclear reactor. That gas turbine production output can then be redirected to frigate production.

Given Russia's nuclear industry capabilities I think it is a waste of resources to build any conventional ship that is larger than a destroyer.

As for the rationale for the lack of support ships. How many support ships does a battlecruiser like this need really?
I thought it had pretty much all the systems it needs to defend itself. This is not a US carrier.

mnztr wrote:The ship was docked awaiting repairs in 1999.

Correct.

That means the project started then, even if the work on the ship did not start, the engineering and planning started.

No, it doesn't. The scope of work in 1999 wasn't a modernisation but was for repair. Funds didn't exist so the repairs were deferred repeatedly. No repairs, no leaving dock. Several upgrades were started and then abandoned as funds remained inadequate, and it wasn't until 2014 that the gov committed funds to the rebuild. 7 years is too long in my book, but given the huge scope of work (look at some photos if you doubt it) delays were always inevitable.

The fact that you double-down on this nonsense is proof that you simply have no idea.

People... getting your panties in a bunch and swearing at some faceless name on the interweb might make you feel like heros, but honestly when you burst into tears about minor delays it makes you look a little silly.

A delay... must be incompetence or corruption... maybe they have forgotten how to build ships?

Or it might be their customer has requested a change that is going to require extra time.

Or perhaps a thousand other different things happened.

Get over it.

They already have PtG and several Slava class ships, they have more cruisers than the UK and France combined... not that they are being over used at the moment, but when the Kuznetsov is back in the water it will be likely they will want to take her out for tests and checks to make sure upgrades and improvements worked... and the same for the Nakhimov too.

not just this forum, many articles out there. just tieing up the slip for so long makes this non viable

You mean like the many articles on Putin using Novachok to kill his enemies at home and abroad... and failing spectacularly?

They should be able to build a clean sheet leider class in less then half that time.

Well if they can't upgrade a cruiser in 23 years then it will be 1,000 years before a from scratch cruiser could be built...

They just laid down two 40K ton helicopter carriers, but ships half that weight would be impossible...

If there's one thing Russian Navy has in abundance it's empty space because they they sure a shit don't have too many ships

Ships do not fall from the sky. Their new ships all seem to be very very good, though it takes time to get them to the point where they can start to produce them in useful numbers.

They seem to have tested their Frigates and Corvettes to the point where they should be able to ramp up production... once engines and things are fully sorted out.

Then they can focus on new destroyers and new cruisers, but making new destroyers and new cruisers makes no sense if you don't have corvettes and frigates defending your coasts operating and in place.... upgraded older ships reduce the urgency of new destroyers and cruisers so they can take the time to do a better job.

For all we know the delay might be a more power laser defence system for shooting down drones and missiles within 10km of the ship.

I expect them to start construction on a new nuclear battlecruiser around 2025 after the 4th nuclear icebreaker is launched.

I suspect the upgraded cruisers (two Kirovs and perhaps a couple of Slavas) delay the urgent need for brand new cruisers, but new destroyers would be more useful and higher up the list. A new destroyer could simply be a scaled up Frigate optimised to carry more weapons and bigger sensors, while a new cruiser is a further scaled up destroyer with a better layout to carry even more weapons and even larger sensors.

they hardly have modern frigates....they aren't going to start on a cruiser anytime soon.

The have the most modern and capable frigates available to any navy on the planet, their lack in number should be rectified because their modular design and significant production run in terms of numbers should enable them to be produced at a fair pace. Not China fast, but certainly faster than the UK or France...

The ship was docked awaiting repairs in 1999. That means the project started then, even if the work on the ship did not start, the engineering and planning started. You think they just show up and start cutting? You are beyond dumb if you think this project only started when the work started. Its been fucking YEARS. Yeah keeping a ship on slip or drydock has opportunity cost. You have no brains to figure out a shipyard costs a lot of money to keep open? Probably have clowns like you running this project thats why its such a cluster. Maybe they have no other use for the slip, in which case then can close it down and save money. A lot of hard core commies here that seem to have no idea how business works. WOW!!! Idiot after idiot. Guess what, delays in this project have impacted the PTG project ,you think that has no cost? What else could this fine facility have been used for? We will never know, that is what you call opportunity cost.

My friend and his wife were talking about having children for about 8 years before they started actually trying and it took an extra 4 years for anything to happen... they eventually had to get the assistance of a fertility clinic.

Does that mean it takes 12 years to make a baby? Are they fucking idiots too? How about the incompetent doctors and nurses helping them.... morons... the sky is falling... we are all doomed if it takes 12 years to have a baby... my god...

Will you people take a chill pill.

I mean I understand that Russia and all the invasions and naval blockades that they have been imposing around the world for the last 20 years of Putins iron rule means having this ship available to murder people and rain death on Russias enemies has been inconvenient and all the people who worked at that shipyard should be put to death... as well as any pets they might have owned.

Most of the new sensors they will be putting on the upgraded Kirovs and eventually the upgraded Slavas will be brand new or test systems eventually going to go on future cruisers they probably wont lay down for another 6-8 years at best. With two upgraded Kirov class ships and perhaps three upgraded Slava class cruisers they don't need brand new cruisers for 10-15 years anyway.

Destroyers will be more useful but even then they could be laying them down in 3-4 years time and everything would still be fine.

Right now it makes more sense to start making corvettes and frigates and fill out some gaps in most of the fleets and allow some older crap that needs to be retired get retired.

Brand new corvettes and frigates is a nice quick relatively cheap way of upgrading all their fleets rather rapidly... destroyers and cruisers are going to cost more and will take longer but essentially are just larger ships with more weapons and bigger sensors with bigger propulsion systems.

Is that all you can do, troll?

Two tangoing.

If there is no improvement in behaviour then breaks from teh forum might be a solution... they are clearly breaking rules and they both know it.

And they will complain that I am picking on them and it is because they don't love Putin that they are getting banned so it is really all just censorship... despite the rules about abusing other members and use of bad languages having nothing to do with Putin... suppose I should be relieved they are not blaming Russian hackers...

limb, you really need to learn how to read.

"They hardly "HAVE"

Have in this case means the possession, not designs. Christ, why do I need to explain grade school-level English?

How Gorshes do they have in the water and commissioned, just 1. So yes, they hardly have any modern frigates.

Before you call something retarded learn to read alright buddy

Actually the english language is very open to interpretation... you are not likely to accurately describe a situation where you say the bad guy in front of you is hardly armed because he only has one pistol pointed at your chest... especially if that pistol is one he made himself and is second to none despite being a third world illiterate idiot who sells fuel to make a living and doesn't make anything.

They don't have a lot in service, that is very true... a bit like the opposite of the F-35 where they have 500 odd produced... what did the English say... 90 K pounds per hour to operate and still not all the bugs worked out... but they made 500 of them...

The fact that you double-down on this nonsense is proof that you simply have no idea.

No, it proves he wants an argument and is more interested in appearing to be right than finding out the actual truth of the matter.

They already have PtG and several Slava class ships, they have more cruisers than the UK and France combined.

Really ? There is a lot of ppl ragging on the Russian Navy because its not the US or China but that puts it into perspective. Britain and France with their carriers, consider themselves navy powers. Its not like we are talking Italy or Spain.

You really think the govt is going to appropriate funds without a relatively concrete plan for the repairs and upgrade? Where do you think the plan comes from? The tooth fairy? During those years there was likely a great deal of back and forth between the navy and shipyard team, as well as the govt. Gradually (at an excruciatingly slow pace) they develped a concept that they agreed upon. It is possible the delays were fuelled by the development of Tsirkon and battle management systems designed for the Gorshkov that will probably be the basis of the Nakhimov systems, but we will likely never know for sure. In any case the project started when they decided to repair it, it then evolved into a larger project. When you cannot get money for a high profile project like this, it means the the buyer is not satified with the offering. The Russian govt has a LOT of money. Over 600B in hard currency reserves and gold and a magic printing press to print roubles. Saying the Russian govt has no money is a statement for people that don't understand money. The Russian govt ALWAYS has money.

Big_Gazza wrote:

mnztr wrote:The ship was docked awaiting repairs in 1999.

Correct.

That means the project started then, even if the work on the ship did not start, the engineering and planning started.

No, it doesn't.  The scope of work in 1999 wasn't a modernisation but was for repair. Funds didn't exist so the repairs were deferred repeatedly.  No repairs, no leaving dock. Several upgrades were started and then abandoned as funds remained inadequate, and it wasn't until 2014 that the gov committed funds to the rebuild. 7 years is too long in my book, but given the huge scope of work (look at some photos if you doubt it) delays were always inevitable.

The fact that you double-down on this nonsense is proof that you simply have no idea.

GarryB wrote:

My friend and his wife were talking about having children for about 8 years before they started actually trying and it took an extra 4 years for anything to happen... they eventually had to get the assistance of a fertility clinic.

Does that mean it takes 12 years to make a baby? Are they fucking idiots too? How about the incompetent doctors and nurses helping them.... morons... the sky is falling... we are all doomed if it takes 12 years to have a baby... my god...

It does not mean they are idiots, but it certainly means there are some issues with the baby making process doesn't it? And now the wife is 8 years older and a second baby is a much more difficult decision. In fact I would say this is a perfect parallel to the Nakhimov saga. I will say I am never the instigator of these nasty chains, but if people are gonna get nasty I will dish it out as well. If you are going to give people breaks I suggest you target the instigators which will never be me.

You really think the govt is going to appropriate funds without a relatively concrete plan for the repairs and upgrade? Where do you think the plan comes from? The tooth fairy? During those years there was likely a great deal of back and forth between the navy and shipyard team, as well as the govt. Gradually (at an excruciatingly slow pace) they develped a concept that they agreed upon. It is possible the delays were fuelled by the development of Tsirkon and battle management systems designed for the Gorshkov that will probably be the basis of the Nakhimov systems, but we will likely never know for sure. In any case the project started when they decided to repair it, it then evolved into a larger project. When you cannot get money for a high profile project like this, it means the the buyer is not satified with the offering. The Russian govt has a LOT of money. Over 600B in hard currency reserves and gold and a magic printing press to print roubles. Saying the Russian govt has no money is a statement for people that don't understand money. The Russian govt ALWAYS has money.

When we stop lobbing insults, we can find things to discuss.

I think the main thing I object to is that you are suggesting that because nothing was done to upgrade this ship over the last 20 odd years means the Russian government and Russian ship yards and MIC are incapable of upgrades to ships... you admit yourself that they didn't know where they were going... the position of Russia in 2000 is really rather different than it is now.... remember there were plans for Russia to join the EU and HATO and there was going to be a common market from the Pacific to the Atlantic... such a solid community would not require Russia to have unfettered access to the worlds countries via sea lines of communication and commerce... if that had come to pass they might be looking at a fleet of only corvettes and frigates and perhaps the odd destroyer for international visits.

The world has changed and when they realised the west was a hindrance to Russian growth and further development, instead of a source of those things then they realised they will have to go out to the world and trade... the world is not coming to them and the west is not going to help.

Russia has a lot of money but has a lot of problems to deal with, and issues to contend with before building a powerful navy.

A powerful navy does not mean bigger than all the navies of the west combined, it is about every element being modern and capable and able to work with all other components to make a powerful force... it is not going to become huge, but it will support international trade which is going to help Russia and the countries Russia ends up trading with.

It does not mean they are idiots, but it certainly means there are some issues with the baby making process doesn't it?

It does, but ask anyone over 40 wanting to have kids and they will say you should have done it earlier... well building aircraft carriers and cruisers was something Russia did in the 1980s as part of the Soviet Union... but there was a painful divorce and split up and lots of capabilities and facilities were lost... losing the Ukraine is the equivalent of losing the vagina in a relationship... would you not agree that that would effect some ones ability to have a child?

The period of time from 2000 to even today has been spent substituting lost assets and lost capabilities... in many ways in 5-8 years when they are likely slowing down building corvettes and frigates because they have enough and are putting destroyers into production and perhaps laying down a new cruiser design, as well as third and fourth 40K helicopter carriers, they will be doing it with new shipyards with new technology and equipment and will be doing a much better job than they were doing in the 1980s... essentially they are getting a young wife... but that does not happen by magic.... they have made their millions and invested in new shipyards and slipways and infrastructure and new technology that is also going into these new ships too.

Economic collapse, suppliers that stab you in the back, and economic and political sanctions from the west that require you to redevelop some parts of ship building for yourself... it is not a situation where you want to fast track getting a baby born... you simply are not ready.

Our problem is that you translate their situation as incompetence... an inability to do the job... a job that has only now been allocated to them and properly funded...

Looking at the Zumwalt and LCS and Ford class can I say the US has forgotten how to make ships too?

Certainly looking at their beta testing programme development cycle for the F-35 they can't make planes any more either...

And now the wife is 8 years older and a second baby is a much more difficult decision.

Once you have one kid, you will know whether you want more or less... that decision becomes plainly obvious... what is difficult is whether it can be achieved naturally or if adoption might be your only choice.

I will say I am never the instigator of these nasty chains, but if people are gonna get nasty I will dish it out as well.

Well I can say I fully understand, but please don't... from a moderators perspective if you engage in such bullshit and then someone complains and I have to sort it out.... I don't care who started it... everyone who took part is responsible. Being provoked is no excuse, if you don't feel comfortable reporting abuse that is fine, but responding is just return abuse... you might say they abused you first, but where does that argument end... the other person is almost certain to say their abuse starting the incident was frustration because you don't listen and keep repeating things that have been repeatedly refuted etc etc which again is no excuse, but could be described as a provocation...  so we have to people who claim to be provoked into breaking the rules... and it is easier to just say... you agreed to follow the rules, you both broke the rules... you both get breaks from the forum... and then I am the bad guy.

Or if I do nothing then another member correctly points out all this argument and swearing and abuse is really a bad advertisement for this forum as a place to discuss and learn...

I try to be fair, and I certainly try to communicate to users what I am doing and why when it comes to moderation... I think that is only fair... it is not my forum, it is yours.

But without rules being enforced it is nothing.

If you are going to give people breaks I suggest you target the instigators which will never be me.

Thank you for your advice... I do appreciate feed back and suggestions.

But the rules are about people who abuse other members, it does not really mention who started it or why.

I hate banning members, I don't think it helps. I think you are here to talk about something that clearly interests you, but part of that needs to be a basic acceptance that not everyone is as logical or as right as you. It is just the way the world is.

Ignoring differing views is accepting ignorance... but then not changing your views when presented with evidence that shows the foundation for your views to be wrong is just as ignorant. I have long discussions with people where you show them to be wrong or misinformed in multiple areas of their beliefs, but when shown to be clearly wrong or misinformed they make the same argument or hold the same view with a different piece of evidence that may or may not be true.

It is like talking religion with some people...  they are not on receive, they are transmit only... they want you to change your view and their own beliefs and views are set in stone and cannot be questioned.

That is OK, but makes discussion on those topics rather pointless because they become circular.

Back on topic please everyone.

mnztr wrote:...If you are going to give people breaks I suggest you target the instigators which will never be me.

Never? Are you sure?

Be careful what you wish for:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t575p800-upgraded-kirov-class-project-11442-admiral-nakhimov#319919

mnztr wrote:I guess you know what an idiot sounds like since you sound like one all the time.

You really are not aware you insulted me first? Really?

PapaDragon wrote:

mnztr wrote:Search the whole thread, it has been discusses endlessly. There was one I recall from the barants sea observer. IF they make 2023, that will be 23 years. Its just not possible to justify this kind of undertaking. ...

You mean Independent Barents Observer? That's barely a website

Also, tying up a slip? Was there something else that they need that slip for?

Some other vessel among "numerous" that Russia is building?

They could tie up three times as much space and still have plenty to spare

If there's one thing Russian Navy has in abundance it's empty space because they they sure a shit don't have too many ships

mnztr wrote:...They should be able to build a clean sheet leider class in less then half that time.

No Leader will be built ever

And even if they try it will take twice as long as overhauling this one

Have you seen how long corvettes take to build there?

You sound like that idiot who said that they should rip out used engine from Neustrashimyy class just to finish one Grigorevich, bad joke at best

But yes I take Garrys point to heart and will report this behavior in the future rather then getting in touch with my inner 12 year old.

Another point is that if abuse is reported the bans can be shorter... if you fill two pages of abuse, you are going to get a longer ban than a one off caustic remark.

If you don't feel comfortable reporting... some people will not grass no matter what... it is a cultural thing, then you can confront the member about their rule breaking and ask them to reconsider their actions... we are adults.

I have spoken to some members in the past based on complaints via PM, and the member in question apologised without being told to do so.

There had been a misunderstanding that got out of hand and after looking at it I was able to explain that misunderstanding and the situation was resolved to my satisfaction.

You don't have to agree on everything... or anything, but you do need to be civil.

Life is too short to be angry.

Now back on topic....

You have all read the rules so I shouldn't have to remind you of rule 10, is follow instructions given by a mod.

Russian missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov to become world’s strongest warship after upgrade

The heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov has been under repairs at the Sevmash Shipyard since 1999; real work on the warship has been carried out since 2013.

MOSCOW, April 22. /TASS/. The heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov will turn into the world’s strongest surface combatant after its upgrade, CEO of the Severnoye Design Bureau (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) Andrei Dyachkov told TASS on Thursday on the occasion of the company’s 75th anniversary.

"The high modernization potential integrated in these ships (Project 1144 and Project 1142) upon their designing helped carry out certain works and outfit the Admiral Nakhimov with the most advanced weapons, which makes it the world’s strongest surface combat ship," the chief executive said.

While new advanced "ships of the 21st century" have emerged, the Project 1144 and Project 11442 heavy nuclear-powered missile-carrying cruisers designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau that include, in particular, the Admiral Nakhimov are still a renowned brand and a symbol of both the design bureau and the Russian Navy, he stressed.

The heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov has been under repairs at the Sevmash Shipyard since 1999. Real work on the warship has been carried out since 2013. The upgrade has substantially boosted the cruiser’s strike capabilities.

The Project 1144 ‘Orlan’ heavy nuclear-powered missile-carrying cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, which was known under the name of Kalinin before 1992, was laid down at the Baltic Shipyard on May 17, 1983. The warship was floated out on April 25, 1986 and it entered service with the Soviet Navy on December 30, 1988. The warship was named the Admiral Nakhimov on April 22, 1992.

https://tass.com/defense/1281679

Its really quite mind blowing that this magnificent ship with unlimited range was barely deployed and was only somewhat in service for 10 years. The best reason for a ship like this is to show the flag.

mnztr wrote:Its really quite mind blowing that this magnificent ship with unlimited range was barely deployed and was only somewhat in service for 10 years. The best reason for a ship like this is to show the flag.

Well the 90's happened, nuff said.

These things happen in the break down of a large empire.
The massive late '80s Soviet military budget disappeared & its a minor miracle that they were able to keep as much of the fleet in ~working order as they did.

as cool as kirov battle cruisers are , in real practice , all surface warships are vulnerable to nuclear strikes . They still can be very useful to fight conventional wars ,for show of force , like striking terrorist in syria ,but that will be a very expensive show of force , it will be far more effective to use attack drones with line of sight on the target and with lazer guided missiles. the missiles of attack drones are infinitely more cheap and more precise than any cruise missile could dream ever to do.
Russia airforce could even launch a small missile throw a window or a bulls eye strike with a kamikazi drone.

To make those super destroyers useful in a fight vs NATO , Russia will need to kick putin the weak from power and change russia policies of military engagement and authorize preventive first strike attacks on any nation ,they understand war can't be avoided ,and that it will be a matter of hours or few days when it will start , so they rather take advantage and launch first , to take by surprise their enemies.
who ever jump first on the other ,will have always a surprise advantage .

To make those super destroyers useful in a fight vs NATO

Russia needs to build up its navy to give it global reach and the ability to trade with anyone it pleases.

They already have everything they need to fight HATO... they are called ICBMs and SLBMs and air launched cruise missiles....

Building a Navy to defeat HATO or the US is a stupid waste of time and money and resources... a MiG-31 with Kinzhal will work for the next 10 years and MiG-41s with the successor to Kinzhal will likely reach two or three times the range of the aircraft and the missile... why would Russia need ships when a mach 4 aircraft could deliver probably a mach 15 plus missile much faster and easier.

The problem is that if Russian companies and ships are having problem off the coast of africa or central or south america a high speed plane and anti ship missile is a bit useless.

During the cold war the Soviet Cruisers and Carriers and Carrier groups were going to be to confront US carrier groups launching attacks at the Soviet Union.

Now, they are going to ensure access to the world, so Russia can trade with the rest of the world and not have to worry much about what the west thinks about it.

Russian corvettes have better electronics than the Kirovs did from the cold war and can carry missiles better than the Kirovs did... but obviously it can't carry as many missiles. A modern Russian corvette can carry an anti sub missile better than the SS-N-14 Metel, it can carry long range precision guided land attack missiles... the Kirov never had that, its anti ship missiles are four times faster and with three to four times better range... but of course it carries less.

The 150km range S-350 Redut missile outranges the 90km range Rif, which was based on an early model S-300.

The point is that the new weapons are unifed so bigger ships just carry more, they are all very well equipped with electronics which only their biggest ships would carry...

The real difference a new destroyer and cruiser design will make is enough missiles to not just defend themselves but also defend ships around them too... and enough missiles to launch a decent strike against land and sea targets.

Putin is not driving the growth of the navy... he is allowing it to happen but he doesn't pick which shipyard gets what contract...

But keep on blaming him for everything... he wont mind.

Satellite photo of Nakhimov, Apr 2021

Big_Gazza wrote:Satellite photo of Nakhimov, Apr 2021

While I cannot make out the details in the above photo myself, @granger on Twitter provides a detailed description.

GrangerE04117 wrote:The VLS section that houses the 20 SM-233 launchers for the P-700 Granit is now replaced with 80 3S14 UKSK that would house Kalibr, Onyx, and Zircon.
The SAM VLS section is still being worked [on] along with the magazine room for the naval gun

Big_Gazza wrote:Satellite photo of Nakhimov, Apr 2021

From this photo it looks like still a lot of work is left. Doesn't look like it would be starting trials this year.

Wow it looks like they built a housing development on it. Still they may get a lot done in the summer since the weather allows work to go much faster.

Charly015 has some good pictures of the Nakhimov:




https://twitter.com/charly0153/status/1399013848447860736

So they are going to have redut system too? Are they getting rid of navalized tor?

A good question.

Naval TOR is a very good system, but Redut has a short range self defence missile in the form of the 9M100 missile too, but the standard missiles... 9M96 in two version with ranges of 60km and 150km can also be used making it more flexible and more powerful... and they have mentioned that the 250km and 400km S-400 missiles are also compatible with the Redut system which makes it even more flexible.

Honestly we don't actually know what they are doing and that is why photos of its progress are posted and speculation runs wild regarding what they are or are not going to do to this ship... and other types being upgraded.

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