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Russian PESA and AESA Radars

GarryB

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Post n°51

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

GarryB Tue May 26, 2015 11:01 am

Seems to be the trend today.... the Eurofighter entered service well before all its capabilities and systems were ready.

I think people are not appreciating the problems with AESA production... the MiG-35 has an array of over 1,000 by 1,000 transmit/receive modules... that is 1 million modules per aircraft... which is a lot to produce.

the first ones can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars each to make but over time and improvements in production the quality and production capacity goes up and the dud rate goes down... remember a dud module costs the same amount to make as a good module... you just can't use it on a radar antenna.

At the end of the day if the first 30 aircraft don't have an AESA that is not the end of the world... as later planes get the AESA radars the production numbers will increase as will production capacity and new designs and new technology to make them better and cheaper... once that happens those first production aircraft can get replacement radar antenna fitted for rather less money than it would cost if they sold them with under tested and under developed experimental models.

house200888

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Post n°52

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 12:08 pm

GarryB wrote:Seems to be the trend today.... the Eurofighter entered service well before all its capabilities and systems were ready.

I think people are not appreciating the problems with AESA production... the MiG-35 has an array of over 1,000 by 1,000 transmit/receive modules... that is 1 million modules per aircraft... which is a lot to produce.

the first ones can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars each to make but over time and improvements in production the quality and production capacity goes up and the dud rate goes down... remember a dud module costs the same amount to make as a good module... you just can't use it on a radar antenna.

At the end of the day if the first 30 aircraft don't have an AESA that is not the end of the world... as later planes get the AESA radars the production numbers will increase as will production capacity and new designs and new technology to make them better and cheaper... once that happens those first production aircraft can get replacement radar antenna fitted for rather less money than it would cost if they sold them with under tested and under developed experimental models.

Well actually there are other problems in that AESA radar other than its delay . One of them is its limited range compared to western AESA radars . the range of the radar with 960 modules is up to 160 km for air targets . This was shown by KRET at Aero India 2015 and was offered to India

Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 3 VmLsX

Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 3 VmLsX

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/aero-india-2015-dfi-meet-with-saurav-jha.65727/page-8

sepheronx

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Post n°53

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 12:44 pm

And? 160Km range is within similar ranges for western radars (aesa as well).

http://www.arabic-military.com/t18249-topic

Aesa on F-35 and F-22 are better due to more T/R modules of course.

mack8

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Post n°54

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

mack8 Tue May 26, 2015 1:23 pm

160 km range must be surely for FIGHTER size target (3 or 5 sqm can't recall now). The Zhuk-ME can already do 120 or 130 km for same.

house200888

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Post n°55

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 1:26 pm

sepheronx wrote:And? 160Km range is within similar ranges for western radars (aesa as well).

http://www.arabic-military.com/t18249-topic

Aesa on F-35 and F-22 are better due to more T/R modules of course.

Could u refer to a single AESA radar with about 1000 modules with range less than or equal to 160 Km ?

Operational Rafale AESA radar which have less modules have a range more than 200 km

Captor-E radar intended for Typhoon have 1200-1500 modules with a range up to 360 Km

FGA-35 and Captor-E radars both have nearly the same diameter of about 600 mm . But as u can see much more modules at Captor-E

By the way the standard Russian target is 5m2 . So when they say the range is up to 160 Km this means against 5m2 target .

sepheronx

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Post n°56

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 1:26 pm

mack8 wrote:160 km range must be surely for FIGHTER size target (3 or 5 sqm can't recall now). The Zhuk-ME can already do 120 or 130 km for same.

Standard measurement for russia is about 5m^2 but have seen 3m^2 mentioned too. All previous Zhuks were measured between these two besides old ones.

sepheronx

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Post n°57

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 1:29 pm

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:And? 160Km range is within similar ranges for western radars (aesa as well).

http://www.arabic-military.com/t18249-topic

Aesa on F-35 and F-22 are better due to more T/R modules of course.

Could u refer to a single AESA radar with about 1000 modules with range less than or equal to 160 Km ?

Operational Rafale AESA radar which have less modules have a range more than 200 km

Captor-E radar intended for Typhoon have 1200-1500 modules with a range up to 360 Km

FGA-35 and Captor-E radars both have nearly the same diameter of about 600 mm . But as u can see much more modules at Captor-E

By the way the standard Russian target is 5m2 . So when they say the range is up to 160 Km this means against 5m2 target .

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

if the two (rafale and captor) are true, they outmatch American AESA at similar sizes greatly. So let us wait and see what is really happening. If there is an issue with lack of power from the T/R modulss supplied to Phazotron, then they can get similar to ones used on N036 which I think is already the case. Or wait till the photon based aesa radars are testing/operational.

Last edited by sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

mack8

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Post n°58

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

mack8 Tue May 26, 2015 1:34 pm

Yes just did a quick research and Zhuk-ME does 120km for a 5 sqm target, presumably Zhuk-M2E does a bit more. To compare of course one needs rough similar data from competitor's radars, but of course they hardly ever are open as russian companies are on these things (ironically). They only say they are "unmatched" and hide behind the "classified" mantra and other blah blah. Doubtful similar radars to Zhuk-ME and Zhuk-AE are that much better, physics work the same everywhere.

sepheronx

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Post n°59

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 1:37 pm

mack8 wrote:Yes just did a quick research and Zhuk-ME does 120km for a 5 sqm target, presumably Zhuk-M2E does a bit more. To compare of course one needs rough similar data from competitor's radars, but of course they hardly ever are open as russian companies are on these things (ironically). They only say they are "unmatched" and hide behind the "classified" mantra and other blah blah. Doubtful similar radars to Zhuk-ME and Zhuk-AE are that much better, physics work the same everywhere.

The difference is how much power per t/r module can really help performance as well.

sepheronx

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Post n°60

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 1:54 pm

Besides forum posts, and some rumors, I cant find detection/tracking ranges for western aesa radars. Nothing official at least.

If some rumors are true, then I dont know where house got his numbers for both Captor and RBE2-AA radar from, cause others state less.

Russian Patriot

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Post n°61

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

Russian Patriot Tue May 26, 2015 1:58 pm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2015/05/mil-150525-sputnik03.htm?_m=3n%2e002a%2e1426%2edd0ao031i6%2e1b5c 2 Billion dollars for the 46 MIG 29 Fulcrum

medo

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Post n°62

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

medo Tue May 26, 2015 2:12 pm

It's not only about t/r number, but also about radar peak power. Irbis radar from Su-35, which is hybrid between PESA and AESA have a peak power of 20 kW and have a range around 400 km against 3 m2 RCS (fighter size) targets. There is no doubt, that Irbis could detect larger targets like AWACS, tankers, bombers, transport planes, etc at far larger distances like 600+ km, but other question is, to which distance radar display is calibrated and at what distance it will start showing targets on display.

I wonder, what peak power will those AESA radars on Rafale and Eurofighter have, but I doubt they will be as powerful as Irbis or Bars-M radar. Maybe their radars will have range of 200 km and 360 km, but in what mode and for what size of RCS. They could detect big planes at that distance or big ships, but not fighter size targets.

house200888

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Post n°63

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 2:16 pm

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Absolutely it is a great radar benefiting from big Sukhoi noses and power
But I am talking about FGA-35

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

No Rafale is using its AESA radar for 2-3 years now . The current standard of the Rafale is called F3.4 (to be F3R in 2018)

APG-80 has a range of up to 120 Km for 1m2 target . Which means it is much more than 160 Km for 5m2 target
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/aesa-radars-for-fighters-brief-review.html

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

house200888

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Post n°64

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 2:21 pm

"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

It has a range nearly up to 300 Km

sepheronx

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Post n°65

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 2:28 pm

house200888 wrote:

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Absolutely it is a great radar benefiting from big Sukhoi noses and power
But I am talking about FGA-35

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

No Rafale is using its AESA radar for 2-3 years now . The current standard of the Rafale is called F3.4 (to be F3R in 2018)

APG-80 has a range of up to 120 Km for 1m2 target . Which means it is much more than 160 Km for 5m2 target
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/aesa-radars-for-fighters-brief-review.html

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

N036 has nothing to do with size when it carries the same amount of T/R modules as what you are saying as Captor-E, yet has greater range.

I dont know where they get that 1M^2 figures from because other sites list 3 - 5 m^2. Also, look at the amount of T/R modules mentioned too.

Not saying it is wrong, it could be right, but I checked out the companies websites and couldnt find official data.

sepheronx

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Post n°66

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 2:29 pm

house200888 wrote:"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

Yet your link states something else. So what is it? A lot of conflict in information.

Your igor blog post states 110-140 or whatever km in 1m^2 yet now you are saying 300? If you are gonna use a link to try to prove your point, dont try to change the articles claims then with your own. It would be considered disinformation.

sepheronx

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Post n°67

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 2:47 pm

House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

edit: replace mw with w in my comment and it starts to make sense.

Last edited by sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

house200888

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Post n°68

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 2:53 pm

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

Yet your link states something else. So what is it? A lot of conflict in information.

Your igor blog post states 110-140 or whatever km in 1m^2 yet now you are saying 300? If you are gonna use a link to try to prove your point, dont try to change the articles claims then with your own. It would be considered disinformation.

There is No conflict my friend Smile

This quote is from the same blog and the same page Smile

The detection range against 1m2 target is different than that of 10m2 target or maximum range

My speculation that the max range is around 300 Km (actually that what a friend from UAE told me . As they own the radar)

house200888

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Post n°69

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 2:58 pm

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

Last edited by house200888 on Tue May 26, 2015 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

sepheronx

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Post n°70

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 2:59 pm

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

Yet your link states something else. So what is it? A lot of conflict in information.

Your igor blog post states 110-140 or whatever km in 1m^2 yet now you are saying 300? If you are gonna use a link to try to prove your point, dont try to change the articles claims then with your own. It would be considered disinformation.

There is No conflict my friend
This quote is from the same blog and the same page

The detection range against 1m2 target is different than that of 10m2 target or maximum range

My speculation that the max range is around 300 Km (actually that what a friend from UAE told me . As they own the radar)

So at 10m^2, they can detect at 300km? Hmm, I dont believe that, but it is possible.

So according to phazotron chief in the article I posted, the Zhuk AE is capable of detection at 250km for 3m^2 but only if the modules operate at 5 watts, which they dont due to powersupply issue.

As for info from friend, it isnt considered reliable as it is word of mouth so we can only presume.

Edit: i am wrong again. 220Km 3m^2 250km 5m^2

sepheronx

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Post n°71

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 3:05 pm

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

You disnt read it then. The phazotron chief stated it is due to powersupply and that they undervalue their stats.

He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

So he is stating they already outpassed that performance with 680 t/r modules at that time. If this is the case, then at 900+ t/r modules, should be much more. But we need to figure too that they are not running at 5w but at 3-3.5w and thus could greatly depreciate performance. If the other one is correct, that means they didnt solve the initial issue of the wattage issue and just added more t/r modules, which could be running at even lower output as adding more on will stress the powersupply.

Edit: you say indians confirmed, but that was rumor mill that phazotron denied. Shouldnt read too much into that indian forum...

house200888

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Post n°72

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

house200888 Tue May 26, 2015 3:16 pm

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

You disnt read it then. The phazotron chief stated it is due to powersupply and that they undervalue their stats.

He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

Edit: you say indians confirmed, but that was rumor mill that phazotron denied. Shouldnt read too much into that indian forum...

No I really read it before
Actually until I saw that pic from AERO INDIA I always was convinced that the range of FGA-35 is more than 200 km relying on this interview and another link that said back then nearly the same
even WIKI say nearly the same

But that PIC is official and up to date

Last edited by house200888 on Tue May 26, 2015 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

medo

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Post n°73

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

medo Tue May 26, 2015 3:18 pm

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Absolutely it is a great radar benefiting from big Sukhoi noses and power
But I am talking about FGA-35

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

No Rafale is using its AESA radar for 2-3 years now . The current standard of the Rafale is called F3.4 (to be F3R in 2018)

APG-80 has a range of up to 120 Km for 1m2 target . Which means it is much more than 160 Km for 5m2 target
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/aesa-radars-for-fighters-brief-review.html

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

N036 has nothing to do with size when it carries the same amount of T/R modules as what you are saying as Captor-E, yet has greater range.

I dont know where they get that 1M^2 figures from because other sites list 3 - 5 m^2. Also, look at the amount of T/R modules mentioned too.

Not saying it is wrong, it could be right, but I checked out the companies websites and couldnt find official data.

It's not only about the number of T/R modules, but also about peak power of radar. As N036 is developed from Irbis radar, so we could assume it will have the same 20 kW peak power as Irbis and AN/APG-77 and same caracteristics with the range around 400 km as Irbis and AN/APG-77 have. Irbis is PESA radar, but have same capabilities as AN/APG-77 AESA radar, because they are the same powerful.

sepheronx

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Post n°74

Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

sepheronx Tue May 26, 2015 3:24 pm

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

You disnt read it then. The phazotron chief stated it is due to powersupply and that they undervalue their stats.

He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

Edit: you say indians confirmed, but that was rumor mill that phazotron denied. Shouldnt read too much into that indian forum...

No I really read it before
Actually until I saw that pic from AERO INDIA I always was convinced that the range of FGA-35 is more than 200 km relying on this interview and another link that said back then nearly the same
even WIKI say nearly the same

But that PIC is official and up to date

It is. But it raises some interesting questions. They stated what issue they faced before, and could very well be the same case today - powersupply. If the T/R modules not being given enough power, the power applied back could cause the issue. Is this issue be due to the engines to the powersupply?

The N036 seems to be working as intended as performance clearly shows at even similar t/r modules as other radars, gives similar abilities to Irbis-E, which proved its 400km detection range against 5m^2 in a video produced by metberkut at mp.net.

So either NIIP's modules are better, or the engines are producing enough power to the powersupply.

Good news for NIIP i suppose. Other thing is that they are developing new method of t/r modules for aesa radars that will reduce cost and weight/size: http://www.niipp.ru/catalog/detail.php?ID=245

While KRET and Rostec are developing aesa radar tech through photons. So maybe that will solve KRETS initial issues.

sepheronx

sepheronx: Posts : 8847
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Post n°75