Russian Navy: Status & News #2

it is just a design, nothing more. Maybe it is for export only

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

George1 wrote:New project of small anti-submarine ship (23420) by Almaz

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1744165.html

thjey stated AK-306 but this here looks more liker Palash or better Pantsir-M?



BTW could it not be better basis  for corvette instead of 22800?!

The Russian Navy need something to replace the 1124 and 1331. The 22160 and 22800 has, after all, no ASW capability att all. And again, why are they making both 22160 and 22800 with almost the same armament? It makes no sense. Would have been better to concentrate on the 22160 and dump the 22800.

Cucumber Khan wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

BTW could it not be better basis  for corvette instead of 22800?!

The Russian Navy need something to replace the 1124 and 1331. The 22160 and 22800 has, after all, no ASW capability att all. And again, why are they making both 22160 and 22800 with almost the same armament? It makes no sense. Would have been better to concentrate on the 22160 and dump the 22800.

Precisely, having 3 different types of light corvettes for different tasks is an expensive madness. i am not top brass but I only wonder why such strategy to multiply types of ships doing similar tasks?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Cucumber Khan wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

BTW could it not be better basis  for corvette instead of 22800?!

The Russian Navy need something to replace the 1124 and 1331. The 22160 and 22800 has, after all, no ASW capability att all. And again, why are they making both 22160 and 22800 with almost the same armament? It makes no sense. Would have been better to concentrate on the 22160 and dump the 22800.

Precisely, having  3 different types of light corvettes for different tasks is an expensive madness. i am not top brass but I only wonder why such strategy to multiply types of ships doing similar tasks?

22160 and 22800 do not have same armament.

22160 is patrol ship that can use container Kalibrs if need arises but that is not it's intended role. It's purpose it so take all the BS jobs on itself (e.g. anti-piracy, flag showing, etc...) in order not to waste proper warships on those BS jobs.
You should keep them out of this discussion because they have more in common with coast-guard than Navy.

22800 is NOT a corvette because it is minuscule. At best it is large missile boat. Basically an ocean rated Buyan-M with lower radar signature. After Syria everyone wants a Buyan-M.  

This new anti sub boat and 22800 are not the ships that go far away from Russian coast. Instead they go up and down Russian coast and keep tabs on enemy subs and other stuff while proper long range ships (real corvettes and frigates like Gorshkov class) go out on long range missions they are designed for instead of hanging around the home coastline.

Their short range is probably the reason why they do not pack large AA systems. Since they stay near the Russian coast they are always in range of land based AA systems and marine aviation.
If they do go out they rely on larger ships for AA protection like Zeleni Dol/Varyag combo in Syria now.

As for price, I do not think that proper multi-role ship like Gorshkov frigate is less expensive than several of these small missile/anti-sub boats. They are simply too tiny to really make them multi-role. Simply not enough room and even if they could, adding more weapons also increases price tag.

And there is the fact that Russian Navy has insane number of ancient ships that need to be replaced with something ASAP because they are not only useless by now, but some of them also pose danger to their crews due to age and shoddy design.

There is also matter of export of course.

Just my noob guesswork, If someone want to correct me I am ready to learn.  

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
thjey stated AK-306 but this here looks more liker Palash or better Pantsir-M?

There are different variants of the ship. They have shown two of the variants in the images that have been published.

PapaDragon wrote:
22160 and 22800 do not have same armament.

22160 is patrol ship that can use container Kalibrs if need arises but that is not it's intended role. It's purpose it so take all the BS jobs on itself (e.g. anti-piracy, flag showing, etc...) in order not to waste proper warships on those BS jobs.
You should keep them out of this discussion because they have more in common with coast-guard than Navy.

22160 is a patrol ship just because it was ordered in such classification and not by design. Can have Shtil-1/Calibr/Paket if ordered as a corvette replacement.  

PapaDragon wrote:
22800 is NOT a corvette because it is minuscule. At best it is large missile boat. Basically an ocean rated Buyan-M with lower radar signature. After Syria everyone wants a Buyan-M.  

This new anti sub boat and 22800 are not the ships that go far away from Russian coast. Instead they go up and down Russian coast and keep tabs on enemy subs and other stuff while proper long range ships (real corvettes and frigates like Gorshkov class) go out on long range missions they are designed for instead of hanging around the home coastline.

As for price, I do not think that proper multi-role ship like Gorshkov frigate is less expensive than several of these small missile/anti-sub boats. They are simply too tiny to really make them multi-role. Simply not enough room and even if they could, adding more weapons also increases price tag.

Visby class corvettes are pretty universal with displacement 640t for 800-900t class ship can have Paket and  Pantsir-M and Calibers

PapaDragon wrote:
And there is the fact that Russian Navy has insane number of ancient ships that need to be replaced with something ASAP because they are not only useless by now, but some of them also pose danger to their crews due to age and shoddy design.

There is also matter of export of course.

Just my noob guesswork, If someone want to correct me I am ready to learn.  

Precisely many old boats boats for ASW/ASh/Patrol missions and they need to be replaced by  fairly cheap small ships in smaller [quote="PapaDragon"] Thus going Visby way is IMHO the  best option for RN.

Logistics simpler/multimission/long series so easy to made and reasonable costs

Well we both guess with difference my guess is correct

Militarov wrote: Well sounds legit, tho it will for start most likely carry mainly Kalibrs. All depends how dev of Zircon goes.

80 cells regardless of missile type usewd sounds nice anyway.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:...............................


Visby class corvettes are pretty universal with displacement 640t for 800-900t class ship can have Paket and  Pantsir-M and Calibers

Visby seems to be pretty lightly armed judging from wiki:

   1 × Bofors 57 mm Mk3====> this looks like pretty small caliber BTW
   8 × RBS15 Mk2 anti-ship missiles====> only 250 km range, probably subsonic too
   4 × 400 mm torpedo launchers for Type 45 torpedoes
   Mines and depth charges

   Provision for but not fitted with
   2 × 6 127 mm ALECTO anti-submarine rocket launchers (cancelled)
   12 × Umkhonto SAM(cancelled)

It looks like they also do not have CIWS at all...  

Compared with this, 22800 looks extremely well armed.

Large main gun, Kalibr/Onyx launcher (can launch torpedoes too) , CIWS and short range Gibka SAM system (for now, probably Pantsir later)

And like Visby it will be proper stealth ship. Buyan is just stealthy.

Not that stealth is as important feature as everyone is raving about but still... Just speaking from historic experience here...

I tried to find pricetags for various Russian ships in order to see how many 22800 or similar small combat vessels could be purchased for the price of one frigate (Gorshkov or Grigorevich) but no luck.

Can anyone give the numbers or make an educated guess?

20380 - 7,5 billion rubles.
20385 - 10 billion rubles.
11356 - 13 billion rubles.
22350 - 18 billion rubles.

According to http://www.cast.ru/

So I guess it's something like 3-4 billions for Buyan-M.

If i recall right price of Buyan-M in 2013. was about 120 million USD, which today would be like what 9 bil rub?

Nah. There was never any figure announced. And 9 bil sounds ridiculous. More expensive than 20380? No way.

Amounts in Rub changed alot compared to 2013. it lost alot of value compared to USD.

Militarov wrote:Amounts in Rub changed alot compared to 2013. it lost alot of value compared to USD.

What the ruble equals in U$ has little bearing on it's worth in Russia...

Militarov wrote:Amounts in Rub changed alot compared to 2013. it lost alot of value compared to USD.

Nobody cares about the USD price. The ruble price almost didin't change. If 20380 goes for 7,5 and is considered to be expensive for a corvette, no way in hell they would have purchased 21631 for 9 billion rubles.

franco wrote:

Militarov wrote:Amounts in Rub changed alot compared to 2013. it lost alot of value compared to USD.

What the ruble equals in U$ has little bearing on it's worth in Russia...

Right. Imported components grow on trees. Or.. not. They are paid in: 1. apples 2. rubles 3. USD

PapaDragon wrote: Visby seems to be pretty lightly armed judging from wiki:

Visby was provided as an example of light corvette type packed on ship of small displacement. you can alos check Tuo Chiang-class corvette

A)
76mm vs 57mm?
AK-176 76mm has max rate of fire 130 rds/min and max range 15700
Bofors 57mm respectively 220 and 17000

I am not sure if this is real better option for CIWS/AAD or light ship fighting bun.


B) RBS vs Klibr both in bais version are subsonic Range is better for Russian but in case of 22800 8xmass fifference (2300kg-800 kg)  = 12t not shoking value.

As for 640 is not bad at all. RBS missile is more /less counterpart of Kh-35. Sure  Kalibr can weight 3xmore then RBS but we talk about 800-900t class not 640t.

C) So far no Pantsir-M is planned for proj 22800, isn´t it?  Swedes use 57mm as CIWS AFAIK.
Gibka as CIWS?

D) Visby HAS helo platform and HAS ASW torpedoes. Whet should be in basis for self defence of smal corvette slike ship.
22800 is helpless in ny mission if sub is around.

Let´s agree to disagree: I believe that instead of building 3 different classes of small ships  optionally ASW as fourth class:) just make one model  modularized with basis ASh/CIWS/ASW and with place to install mission based module.  I aslow do not see tremendous advantage of 76mm against 57mm in self defence role.

Militarov wrote:

franco wrote:

Militarov wrote:Amounts in Rub changed alot compared to 2013. it lost alot of value compared to USD.

What the ruble equals in U$ has little bearing on it's worth in Russia...

Right. Imported components grow on trees. Or.. not. They are paid in: 1. apples 2. rubles 3. USD

From China can be in Rubles, and from other countries how many components ar eimproted for military production?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote:

franco wrote:

Militarov wrote:Amounts in Rub changed alot compared to 2013. it lost alot of value compared to USD.

What the ruble equals in U$ has little bearing on it's worth in Russia...

Right. Imported components grow on trees. Or.. not. They are paid in: 1. apples 2. rubles 3. USD

From China can be in Rubles, and from other countries how many components ar eimproted for military production?

For shipbuilding? Alot. Mainly electronics tho and engines/propulsion components for certain ships. Probably most import relying part of military industry in Russia, rest managed alot better to replace foreign components with domestic products. Sevmash (or one of those Northen shipbuilding companies director) said they have to rely 40% on imported electronics for ships.

Militarov wrote: For shipbuilding? Alot. Mainly electronics tho and engines/propulsion components for certain ships. Probably most import relying part of military industry in Russia, rest managed alot better to replace foreign components with domestic products. Sevmash (or one of those Northen shipbuilding companies director) said they have to rely 40% on imported electronics for ships.

OK Ukrainian prod or Western is being replaced as matter of national security.  As for electronics is anything form west? I understand that from ukrine some components because of Soviet origin/standards. Anyway ti will be replaced. then again all will b ein Rubles  

TV from 2014 - I presume small share was not 40%
http://severodvinsk.tv/index.php/3817-sevmash-otkazalsya-ot-importa.html

SEVMASH REFUSED TO IMPORT


All the newest Russian nuclear submarines will be 100% equipped with domestic equipment. Earlier in the Sevmash said that under construction nuclear submarine of strategic purpose "Prince Vladimir" is only used domestic components. The company's management notes that to the present day in the construction of warships always purchased metal products, machinery and accessories of the Russian manufacture, although a small share of import was there.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote: For shipbuilding? Alot. Mainly electronics tho and engines/propulsion components for certain ships. Probably most import relying part of military industry in Russia, rest managed alot better to replace foreign components with domestic products. Sevmash (or one of those Northen shipbuilding companies director) said they have to rely 40% on imported electronics for ships.

OK Ukrainian prod or Western is being replaced as matter of national security.  As for electronics is anything form west? I understand that from ukrine some components because of Soviet origin/standards. Anyway ti will be replaced. then again all will b ein Rubles  

TV from 2014 - I presume small share was not 40%
http://severodvinsk.tv/index.php/3817-sevmash-otkazalsya-ot-importa.html

SEVMASH REFUSED TO IMPORT


All the newest Russian nuclear submarines will be 100% equipped with domestic equipment. Earlier in the Sevmash said that under construction nuclear submarine of strategic purpose "Prince Vladimir" is only used domestic components. The company's management notes that to the present day in the construction of warships always purchased metal products, machinery and accessories of the Russian manufacture, although a small share of import was there.

Right. Then you enter ship bridge and only Russian built item is ceremonial alarm bell.

- "Russia's shipbuilding industry is dependent on foreign suppliers for 70 percent of the electronic equipment installed aboard its ships, despite ongoing government efforts to replace foreign hardware with domestic alternatives, news agency TASS reported Thursday." - mid 2015.

- "There is a special sphere — an electronics component base and modules where, unfortunately, the dependence on foreign components is about 70 percent,” TASS cited Alexander Navotolsky, the head of import substitution head at United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), as saying. Navotolsky said that outside the field of electronics, 15 percent of components used in building Russian ships are produced either in member nations of the European Union and NATO or in Ukraine." - 2015.

I understand fact that substitutes are being procured, developed or obtained via other sources. However its far from being reduced "small amount" in matter of 6 months. Ofc they are saying that, what do you expect them to say?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote: Visby seems to be pretty lightly armed judging from wiki:

Visby was provided as an example of light corvette type packed on ship of small displacement. you can alos check Tuo Chiang-class corvette  

A)
76mm vs 57mm?
AK-176 76mm has max rate of fire 130 rds/min and max range 15700
Bofors 57mm respectively 220 and 17000

I am not sure if this is real better option for CIWS/AAD or light ship fighting bun.


B) RBS vs Klibr both in bais version are subsonic Range is better for Russian but in case of 22800 8xmass fifference (2300kg-800 kg)  = 12t not shoking value.

As for 640 is not bad at all. RBS missile is more /less counterpart of Kh-35. Sure  Kalibr can weight 3xmore then RBS but we talk about 800-900t class not 640t.

C) So far no Pantsir-M is planned for proj 22800, isn´t it?  Swedes use 57mm as CIWS AFAIK.
Gibka as CIWS?

D) Visby HAS helo platform and HAS ASW torpedoes. Whet should be in basis for self defence of smal corvette slike ship.
22800 is helpless in ny mission if sub is around.

Let´s agree to disagree: I believe that instead of building 3 different classes of small ships  optionally ASW as fourth class:) just make one model  modularized with basis ASh/CIWS/ASW and with place to install mission based module.  I aslow do not see tremendous advantage of 76mm against 57mm in self defence role.

We do agree, Russia should focus on one type of light corvette. That is why I was asking about the price, maybe economics come into play in some other way here. (thanks for answers and sorry if I started argument, my bad)

Also I did not say that Gibka is used as CIWS, they got dedicated AKs for that on 22800. Gibka is for aircrafts. And Navy said that there is option for AA system upgrade later on (Pantsir).

And Kalibr system also has torpedo missiles to deal with subs so it is pretty well covered. And unlike RBS Kalibr launcher can use Onix missile which is supersonic and has much better range.

So in a way any ship with Kalibr launcher is already modular, you just need to load right missile for the right job. (cruise/anti-ship/torpedo)

And they might be able to get away with using 3 different ship types if they use same engines, weapons, radars, electronics, etc on all types.

Again, time and price are major factors here. One class is best solution but this might work too.

Militarov wrote:

Right. Imported components grow on trees. Or.. not. They are paid in: 1. apples 2. rubles 3. USD

Very funny. Except 95% of the cost is in rubles, and the engines have been imported beforehand. And there will be no more german engines starting from the 6th ship.

ult wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Right. Imported components grow on trees. Or.. not. They are paid in: 1. apples 2. rubles 3. USD

Very funny. Except 95% of the cost is in rubles, and the engines have been imported beforehand. And there will be no more german engines starting from the 6th ship.

Oh it is funny, its actually hillarious. What are you trying to say? That Chinese will get paid same amout of rubles for equipment in 2013. and now? Why would they sell equipment for 50% less amount of money? Outlet store ? "But that is not all, if you call now you get free pencil holder". Srsly where do you live. Chinese will take rub, there is no problem, however they will simply use current course of rub compared to USD. And that 95% mark is way, wayyy too optimistic, especially for first 3 ships.

Militarov wrote:
Oh it is funny, its actually hillarious. What are you trying to say? That Chinese will get paid same amout of rubles for equipment in 2013. and now? Why would they sell equipment for 50% less amount of money? Outlet store ? "But that is not all, if you call now you get free pencil holder". Srsly where do you live. Chinese will take rub, there is no problem, however they will simply use current course of rub compared to USD. And that 95% mark is way, wayyy too optimistic, especially for first 3 ships.

I'm saying that believing that Buyan-M is more expensive than 20380 is retarded. Literally. Anyone who believes that should be checked in.

Claiming that 40% of Buyan's equipment is imported is in the same category.


And I am from Russia.

ult wrote:20380 - 7,5 billion rubles.
20385 - 10 billion rubles.
11356 - 13 billion rubles.
22350 - 18 billion rubles.

According to http://www.cast.ru/

So I guess it's something like 3-4 billions for Buyan-M.

So let's assume that Karakurt 22800 and that new anti-sub boat would have price tag comparable to Buyan-M (22800 is basically an improved Buyan-M)

Worst case scenario you could get 4 Karakurt 22800 boats for the price of one Gorshkov-class frigate.

Best case scenario it is 6 Karakurt 22800 for one Gorshkov-class.

Other classes listed here do not make much financial sense especially during money crunch (11356 being exception due to limited production run and the fact that it was just a filler for Gorshkov prior to engine kerfuffle so lets go easy on it shall we )  

It would mean that focusing on Gorshkov-class frigates (long range) and 22800 Karakurt (and maybe that new anti-sub boat - both short range) will yield largest number of very capable ships at optimal price given current financial situation. Naturally if more money becomes available later on purchasing options will expand too.  

Key thing here is Kalibr launchers. Since they can use Kalibr, Onix, torpedo-missiles and (if info is accurate) Zircon hypersonic missiles down the road, all those ships will remain useful for a very long time.

Given the current budget, this approach looks pretty good actually.