Russian Navy: Status & News #3

Peŕrier wrote:
I'm not questioning if Sigma per se could manage complex scenarios, I'm telling that frigate's level configurations are not up to the job.

It's not the system, but its specific configuration.

First, without a LR 3D radar, Sigma will be missing the ability to search and track aerial targets at very long ranges.

Second, with only an handful of consoles and operators, those operators will get overwhelmed by hundreds of tracks, most of them unidentified, when operating in a congested airspace.

Third, to coordinate other ships' AAW assets, a ship should not only have the proper assets, it should have an appropriate role inside a task group hierarchy.

A real admiral could be embarked even on a frigate, but usually functions and ship's capabilities should be matched.

As of today, in the AAW realm the russian navy is short of ships able to take the lead, Peter the Great and Kuznetsov apart.

Oh, just go away.... You've simply repeated the same bullshit using different words. No LR 3D radar? Define long range, and do you really think that the 22350 radars don't provide a 3D capability?

It's not the system, but its specific configuration? Really, please be specific about what you mean. Bland generic gobbledegook that could mean anything....

Seriously?....

OK, definition of 3D LR radar: radar working on relatively long waves /low frequencies, able to perform volumetric scans.

Typical example SMART-L, operating in the 1MHz to 2 MHz range.

Partial exception is the American AN/SPY family, operating at higher frequencies, from 2 MHz to 4 MHz, trading long range performances for higher resolution, enabling it to guide Standard missiles without the need for a tracking radar.

About configuration, this is an example of a typical AWW DDG: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Italian_destroyer_Caio_Duilio

It has 24 multifunctional consoles, most of them typically tasked with aerial surveillance and threat classification and prioritization.

All that stuff, and the people serving it, take a lot of space and energy consumption.

Now, it could be somebody succeeded in cramping an analogous configuration in a hull displacing far less than 5.000 tonnes, but if everybody else is building/operating vessels displacing more than 7.000 tonnes to perform such tasks, and in turn embarking similar configurations in term of sensors, consoles, dedicated servers, power generating sets and people serving all of that, my humble opinion is they do so because it has to be made that way.

Anybody else is entitled to have a totally different opinion, of course.

Peŕrier wrote:
Now, it could be somebody succeeded in cramping an analogous configuration in a hull displacing far less than 5.000 tonnes, but if everybody else is building/operating vessels displacing more than 7.000 tonnes to perform such tasks, and in turn embarking similar configurations in term of sensors, consoles, dedicated servers, power generating sets and people serving all of that

The 22350 is 4500T, and includes sensors & weapons & controls etc etc... Do you really think they need an extra 2500T to carry "extra" electronics for an Aegis-style equivalent?

Really sad actually.

Sigma is the Russian equivalent of AEGIS and combines the sensors and weapons and battle management performance of all the ships using it.

Most older Russian vessels receiving upgrades get Sigma as a core of their upgrades.

The fact that the only new build vessels are Corvettes and Frigates, to you means the older vessels don't exist and are inferior crap and the only functioning part of the Russian Navy is the new stuff consisting of corvettes and frigates.

Amusing that you are that dumb to think new build vessels are a weakness instead of growing strength.

A bit like saying the entire US AF is crap because F-15s and F-16s are no where near as good as the F-35 and the F-35 is not widely deployed enough to even matter yet.

But of course plans to produce larger vessels don't exist and new sensors don't exist either.

Amusing as they have already stated that the land based version of S-500 has a range of about 600km and its radar for guidance 800km and the search radar being used a range of 2,500km and that their larger ships including carriers and cruisers will be fitted with a naval version of S-500...

Thank you very much for calling me dumb.

I think it's better to leave this thread, if that is the standard.

As a last word, I wrote in my first post in the thread "pending a major update of the Sovremenny" because I'm aware the largest ships in Russian Navy have been put on the hold in the scheduled upgrade and modernization plan followed until now.

Up to now, in terms of AAW capabilities, the upper layer is covered only by an handful of cruiser, the Sovremenny being still equipped with old stuff, and a frigate, even if up to date in terms of sensors and weapons, is not a real alternative to dedicated AAW destroyers and cruisers.

Exactly as an hypothetical american frigate equipped with a (scaled down) AN/SPY-1 wouldn't be an alternative to a Burke, but just a complement to it.

There are no major updates of the Sovremmenys planned.  Udaloys maybe updated (& the Adm.Shaposhnikov is currently) as they are all-round better vessels with superior potential for multi-role operations, but not the Sovs with their troublesome steam-cycle powerplants, less-than-ideal helicopter hangar arrangement,  and lack of area ASW sonars.

The Gorshkov class is superior to the Sovremmeny destroyers in terms of AAW performance.  Her radars and electronics are a generation more capable than the old MR-760 as are the Redut SAMs over the old SA-N-7/17 navalised BUK, even if the later were modernised to Shtil-1 standard (which AFAIK they haven't).  

In fact, I'd say that the 11356 Grigorovich (~4000T full load) is equal to a Sovremmeny (8500T fill load) in AAW.  The Fregat M2EM radar is a rough match for the MR-760 (up tp 230km detection range against aircraft), and her Shtil-1 SAMs are superior to those carried by the un-modernised Sovs.  Modern Russian systems are less massive than Soviet era equivalents and they can now pack far more (multirole) capability onto a given size hull.

Can we stop scaring away new members?

It's not like ultron decided to show up again...

PapaDragon wrote:Can we stop scaring away new members?

It's not like ultron decided to show up again...

LOL!! Good call!

The Russian Navy has switched to contract service by 90%

The submarine fleet of Russia went 100% to contractual service, the surface fleet - by 90%, the commander-in-chief of the Russian navy Vladimir Korolev said in an interview with the program "To conduct on Saturday" on the channel "Russia 1".

We have completely switched to submarines on submarines, on surface ships this figure is 90% already. This is an objective necessity, nevertheless, the navy is modern, high-tech ships. And there is only one way out - the contract service
- said Korolev, adding that professional naval schools last year trained more than 1,000 people in 200 specialties.

According to him, in many respects it is the merit of the school restored in 2016 by the order of the Minister of Defense of the Nakhimov School, which includes schools in St. Petersburg, Sevastopol, Vladivostok and Murmansk.

We retained the highest special officer classes, this training commanders of ships, flagship specialists. I imagine myself weakly now, what would have happened if we had lost this beautiful educational institution. We outnumbered the naval education that was in the Soviet Union. And by the drift of our pilots and the surfacing of our ships today can only be compared with the times of the USSR
Said the commander-in-chief.

He added that now on a permanent basis in the sea various tasks of more than 100 Russian ships are being solved, RIA News

The Caspian Flotilla is one of the oldest operational associations of the Russian Navy (Navy). The main base is Astrakhan, the base and dislocation areas are Makhachkala and Kaspiisk in Dagestan, the village of Nikolskoe and Trud Front in the Astrakhan region.

The flagship is a patrol ship "Tatarstan" (project 11661K, type "Gepard").

At present, the fleet includes more than 50 ships and vessels, including:

2 patrol ships of the project 11661K ("Tatarstan" and "Dagestan"),
3 small missile ships of the project 21631 ("Grad Sviyazhsk", "Uglich", "Great Ustyug"),
4 small artillery ships of projects 21630 (Astrakhan, Volgodonsk, Makhachkala) and 12411 (MAK-160),
1 missile boat (in repair since 2008),
5 artillery boats,
2 basic trawlers,
5 road sweepers,
6 landing craft,
small hydrographic vessel "Anatoly Guzhvin",
rescue and towing vessel SB-45, etc.

The flotilla includes several brigades and divisions of ships, part of the marines, coastal rocket and artillery troops, and others.

On August 17, a new rescue tug SB-738 of Project 22870 was adopted in the flotilla. By the end of 2016, two raid tugs should be delivered: RB-410 is being constructed under the 705B project by the Astrakhan branch of the shipyard Zvezdochka, the construction of RB-937 (project 90600) is being completed at the piles of the Pella plant in St. Petersburg.

It is expected that in 2017 the flotilla will be replenished by airborne landing craft of project 12061 "Murena", and until 2020 its composition will be replenished with 6 more warships and boats and will be almost 90% of new military equipment.

Training and combat tasks of the fleet

In 2016, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation publishes only general statistics on the implementation of combat missions for the Black Sea Fleet (PF) and the Caspian Flotilla.

From January to October, the ships of the Black Sea Fleet and the fleet passed more than 400 thousand sea miles (more than 750 thousand km). The surfacing (time spent at sea) amounted to more than 4.6 thousand days, which is almost 40% higher than in the previous year.

More than 600 combat exercises were carried out, including more than 40 rocket firings, more than 250 mine-fighting exercises, and about 290 depth bombings. In August, the crew of the small missile ship "Uglich" won the "Sea Cup - 2016" contest, which was held within the framework of the "Army International Games - 2016".

In September, the ships of the flotilla fired artillery fire during the strategic command post exercise "Kavkaz-2016".

In October, the Tatarstan missile ship and the small rocket ship Grad Sviyazhsk made a 20-day gathering trip, during which they traveled about 2,000 nautical miles (3,600 km), visited the ports of Aktau (Kazakhstan) and Bender-Enzeli (Iran).

From the history of the flotilla

It was formed on November 15 (November 4 according to the old style) in 1722 by the decree of Emperor Peter I, simultaneously with the establishment of a military port in Astrakhan. The flotilla and port served to protect the coasts of the Caspian - the northern and part of the western.

Among the first operations of the flotilla - participation in the Persian campaign of Peter I (1722-1723), by the end of which the fleet had up to 80 large ships.

In 1867 the main base of the flotilla was the port of Baku (now the capital of Azerbaijan). Before the October Revolution of 1917, the flotilla protected trade and fisheries in the Caspian Sea, and also represented Russian trade and industrial interests in Iran. For military merit the flotilla was awarded the St. George ribbon, which the personnel carried on the caps.

After the October Revolution, in April 1918, the Military Fleet of the Astrakhan Region was established, on June 27, 1931, reorganized into the Caspian military flotilla.

During the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. sailors fought near Sevastopol, Kerch, Mariupol and other sectors of the front, accompanied by transports with oil and military cargo, etc. For the services in the defeat of the Nazi invaders, hundreds of sailors of the flotilla were awarded orders and medals, eight of them were awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union .

April 27, 1945 for military service in the years of the Civil and Great Patriotic Wars by decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, the Caspian Flotilla was awarded the Order of the Red Banner.

In the 1950-1980's. The flotilla was one of the most important stabilizing factors in the region. At its sea testing ranges, new types of weapons, including cruise missiles, were tested.

Following the collapse of the USSR and the transformation of the former republics into sovereign states, on April 16, 1992 there was a division of forces, means and ships of the flotilla between the Russian Federation and Azerbaijan. 70% of the forces and assets were transferred to Russia and were relocated from Baku to Makhachkala and Astrakhan, which became its main base. Azerbaijan got the right to dispose of the remaining 30% of ships, coastal infrastructure and flotilla housing stock.

In 2010, the Caspian Flotilla became part of the Southern Military District as a marine component. Its main task is to ensure the national-state interests of Russia in the region.

On the night of 6 to 7 October 2015, flotilla ships from the water area of ​​the Caspian Sea inflicted a massive attack by cruise missiles of the sea-based "Caliber NK" complex on the objects of the "Islamic State" (a terrorist organization banned in Russia) in Syria.

Commander of the Caspian Flotilla - Rear Admiral Sergei Pinchuk (since September 20, 2016).

Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).

http://www.redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/34946-pod-andreevskim-flagom

Main points:


1. Dynamics of the ships (days at sea):
2013: 5900 days
2014: 12700 days
2015: 14200 days
2016: 15600 days
2017: 17100 days

2. Borei class SSBN
The 4th unit (Knyaz Vladimir) will be launched at Sevmash this November

3. Black Sea Fleet will be further strengthened
Admiral Makarov frigate will be there before end of 2017
Vichny Volchek (Buyan-M class) will enter service before end of year
Vassily Bykov (Project 22160) will enter service in 2018

4. Arctic
Ilya Muromets icebreaker is finishing trials
Ivan Papanin class armed icebreakers are under construction

5. Lada class (Project 667) class submarines
The hull of the second unit (Kronshtadt) has been formed. The plant is doing the interior installations.
Main sections of the hull of third unit (Veliky Luch) are ready and have been tested.

6. Nuclear cruisers
Admiral Nakhimov full modernization is proceeding

7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

8. Karakurt class (Project 22800)
The second of the series (Tayfun) will be launced at Pella shipyard this November

9. Classification
New missiles/weapon systems have blurred the line between coastal ships and blue water ships

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).

http://www.redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/34946-pod-andreevskim-flagom

Main points:


1. Dynamics of the ships (days at sea):
2013: 5900 days
2014: 12700 days
2015: 14200 days
2016: 15600 days
2017: 17100 days

2. Borei class SSBN
The 4th unit (Knyaz Vladimir) will be launched at Sevmash this November

3. Black Sea Fleet will be further strengthened
Admiral Makarov frigate will be there before end of 2017
Vichny Volchek (Buyan-M class) will enter service before end of year
Vassily Bykov (Project 22160) will enter service in 2018

4. Arctic
Ilya Muromets icebreaker is finishing trials
Ivan Papanin class armed icebreakers are under construction

5. Lada class (Project 667) class submarines
The hull of the second unit (Kronshtadt) has been formed. The plant is doing the interior installations.
Main sections of the hull of third unit (Veliky Luch) are ready and have been tested.

6. Nuclear cruisers
Admiral Nakhimov full modernization is proceeding

7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

8. Karakurt class (Project 22800)
The second of the series (Tayfun) will be launced at Pella shipyard this November

9. Classification
New missiles/weapon systems  have blurred the line between coastal ships and blue water ships

Somethings explained for the people that do not want to understand the plans and real situation of the Russian Navy. The said is right.

In adition to this, in the refered to the combat fleet, at the rythm of commission of new combat ships, I would expect the decommission of the Project 641 submarine captured to Ukraine (47 years old in a few days), and the decommission of the 4 ships of the Project 1204 (Caspian fleet).

Disadvantages that put the Project 1204 as first in line for decommission with the submarine captured to Ukraine:

- Age: The youngest ship of the 4 remaining  is the 8th oldest combat ship of the Russian Navy with 45 years old today (it means the 4 Project 1204 and the captured submarine are in the Top-8 oldest combat ships of the Russian Navy).
- Size: Fairly smaller than every other combat ship (except some minesweeper and amphibious ship.
- Weapons: Last combat vehicle in the Russian Armed Forces, based on land, air or sea, using the 140mm mrls surface-surface rocket meassure.
- Weapons: The 140mm is the alone armament of this project above the level of man-portable weapons.

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.

So back to square one.

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.  

So back to square one.

Seriously, has this been confirmed?

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.  

So back to square one.

the plan is still for 15. Were the hell are you getting the 4 from? They aren't going to build them till all systems are completed testing before they carry on.

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.  

So back to square one.

Seriously, has this been confirmed?

no

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.  

So back to square one.

Seriously, has this been confirmed?

Yes.

Am only one hear who reads past current page or make effort to remember details? It was confirmed by navy and reposted on this forum months ago.

Did anyone even hear about any more ships being ordered? Even corvettes have stopped after Derzkii.

Only 4 Gorshkovs will be built, whole series is cut down.

They said that they want to focus on Super Gorshkov once these 4 are built and that they will be designing upgraded Gorshkov type vessel to fill the frigate slot at that point.

That's right, Goshkov will soon be old enough to require an upgrade. It's design was approved in 2003. That was whole 15 years ago. First ship was laid down in 2006. If by some miracle they accept it into service next year it will be 12 years after start of construction.

If they complete rest of the ships on current schedule (fat chance of that happening) they will have 4 ships designed 2 decades ago. Capabilities of tomorrow my ass....

Then it isn't a stop. If the next gorshkovs will be an "improved" gorshkovs, its because the reasoning mentioned are correct - not rushing to make sure it all works. Which is obvious. So the next ships will carry the replacements, which makes sense rather than building more of same that may or may not work like Zhumwalt.

Also, corvettes are still being built. Have you ever noticed details like Russian procurement (See Air force procurement).

miketheterrible wrote:Then it isn't a stop. If the next gorshkovs will be an "improved" gorshkovs,
.........

And how long will it take to ''test'' those improved ships? At least another decade gap between these 4 and next 4.

miketheterrible wrote:......... not rushing to make sure it all works. Which is obvious. ......

Oh trust me, they would never be accused of rushing anything. Not even for doing things at normal pace.

If someone is not rushing it's Russian Navy.

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.  

So back to square one.

Seriously, has this been confirmed?

No.

The man allways playing its role.

That's better. Gorshkov are very good but they are too small to be the backbone of RuN. A bigger ship will be perfect and as they will use the same weapons on it, the production should be fast once they gain experience building the Gorshkovs.

As small frigate, Grigorovitch are perfect and they should build another 10 for Pacific and northern fleets, 5 each. That's less than 2 billion $ and it would make lot of work for shipyards for at least the 4 next years. That would let them prepare the Super Gorshkovs and they will replace Grigorovitch in the shipyards for at least another 10 years.

With that build more Steregouchy variants like 12 for each fleet during at least 6 years and you have a very good surface navy and give lot of work to shipyards.

Isos wrote:..................
As small frigate, Grigorovitch are perfect and they should build another 10 for Pacific and northern fleets, 5 each. That's less than 2 billion $ and it would make lot of work for shipyards for at least the 4 next years. That would let them prepare the Super Gorshkovs and they will replace Grigorovitch in the shipyards for at least another 10 years.

With that build more Steregouchy variants like 12 for each fleet during at least 6 years and you have a very good surface navy and give lot of work to shipyards.

You just listed half a dozen things they definitely should be doing but that they aren't.

eehnie wrote:..............
No.

The man allways playing its role.

Why don't you do your role and go f**k yourself you pisshead?

instead of being a bunch of dumb assholes, maybe some of you need to learn a bit about logical deduction here.

So the issue has been somewhat questionable quality among components used when the ships did come out and tested.  Oh, seems there are major issues.  6 years later, ship is still sitting there.  Guess what? all other ships of same class would be too because they all share the same components with faults.  So they put a hold till the ship is finished and then they will determine.  Guess what? That is exactly how it sounds.

And all these problems happened while it was already ordered and in development, which then pushed back development even further. Or pushed back induction. I think after the Goshkov initial ordeal, and Steregyushi, they learned their lesson.

I figure that Grigorovich would have been the way to go since Shtil-1 works, Kalibr works on it, etc etc etc.  They can make it even more modern with even newer materials, newer radar, and such like that.  I imagine they could also fit the Redut system to it too.

But i am not sure why they chose not to go that route.

Edit: Plus I never saw the memo for them canceling Gorshkov.  Could you guys be so kind as to provide the link to the government stating they are going to stop Gorshkov further procurement?

miketheterrible wrote:..........

Edit: Plus I never saw the memo for them canceling Gorshkov.  Could you guys be so kind as to provide the link to the government stating they are going to stop Gorshkov further procurement?

If you start paying attention to all news posted here and not just good ones you would know

Other members are not personal assistants

Oh wow, you proved us wrong. Good job on your rebuttal. How can I ever question some dumb Serb?

Since you got nothing, then I guess this discussion is over and not to take you seriously anymore? Cause you made a bold Fucking claim, try backing it up. That's how the game works. If you can't understand that, then your too Fucking dense and stuck in your imaginative world.

As well, seeing as I am a native English speaker, of all people, it shouldn't be you telling us (yes, more than one of us) to learn how to read. Maybe, just maybe, if more than one is asking the same question, it isn't me. It is you.