Russian Navy: Status & News #3

So some two bit media source posted in the last six months overrides recent statements by government officials on the Gorshkov status?

Yeah, sure.

Why is it so hard to understand that the Gorshkov class will be redesigned based on the experience with the first generation and
due to changing demands?

In 2017 Russia, the only cancellation of such projects would entail wholesale replacement with substitute projects.

kvs wrote:So some two bit media source posted in the last six months overrides recent statements by government officials on the Gorshkov status?

Yeah, sure.  

Why is it so hard to understand that the Gorshkov class will be redesigned based on the experience with the first generation and
due to changing demands?

In 2017 Russia, the only cancellation of such projects would entail wholesale replacement with substitute projects.  

For one stopping to go with a modified design isn't a great idea whats wrong with the base Grov? nothing for a 5k ship it's fine why the need to make it bigger start building DD's if you want bigger ships. There is no need to make it bigger, unless they cannot get the dame thing to work and need to redesign it from the ground up to get it to work properly which if they do I guess would explain why it took them 11 god dam years to get it in service ASSUMING they really do hand it over to the navy in November. Also don't give me "But it takes the us 11 years to get a carrier operational" because if it takes the russians this long to get a new ship class up that is 5k tons verse a 100 ton carrier.

that signals for serious problems. At this point...I don't even wanna know how long them building a carrier would drag on for.

The Russia ship industry has shown things get delayed by YEARS when they make slight changes let alone big ones like this. Right now the Russian Fleet cannot afford such delays.

So now there will be a massive gap for them with getting new frigates. Now it's true the Navy is third rank to Russia yes they don't need a huge navy it's simply not needed for them.

That said they do need a modern navy.

So if the Russians really do stop only AFTER four ships....then you will not see anymore laid down for a good amount of years then you can expect delay after delay after delay after delay ontop of that.

OK, I have deleted some of the more inflamatory posts... if I have to delete more there will be bans.... am I clear.

The Gorshkov is a Frigate design that is modular and therefore also scalable.

Isn't it a bit of common sense to stop after 4 have been built and test them thoroughly for problems and issues.

Once they have been tested and faults found corrected they will likely expand the size to make Destroyer sized models and then Cruiser sized models but they will also likely continue to make Frigate sized versions as well because obviously they need all three types.


Or am I being too obvious?

FFS, we STILL have idiots yabbering about "11 years to build a 4.5kT frigate..."

Please allow an adult set you straight...

1) Engine supply means the 3rd & 4th hull cannot be completed yet, so work proceeds slowly.

2) No additional vessels laid as this would result in more unfinished hulls filling up shipyard slots.

3) Protracted testing of lead unit to FULLY debug all new systems.

4) Second unit is low priority. Incorporate any needed changes as problems are found (and rectified) from lead unit testing.

5) Navy is apparently happy enough with current vessel that they will now proceed with an enlarged version (eg an AB equivalent) once domestic engines become available

Of course, the detractors would prefer that Russia simply waste money on hulls without engines, then rush a few into service in a bug-ridden state and fix/repair the ships at a later time? Kinda like the F-35, get 'em flying now and fuck it if they don't work properly. Its all about appearances and Corporate flummery anyways, and the shareholders make more money this way....

Let the children play, while the adults do what adults do.

GarryB wrote:OK, I have deleted some of the more inflamatory posts... if I have to delete more there will be bans.... am I clear.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t6686p825-russian-navy-status-news-3#207975

PapaDragon wrote:

eehnie wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Interview with Admiral Korolev (Head of the Navy).
...................
7. Gorshkov class frigates
They will start getting indicted to service.
People can be as sarcastic as they want for the long time it is taking to do all the tests. Fact of the matter is, we at the Navy, we are very picky. We want to get things right. After all, the process of building the rest of the series depends on what the characteristics of the main ship will be. The cornerstone is reliability and efficiency. Our position: the Navy needs ships with the combat capabilities of tomorrow.

This is nice and all but if true then why did thy decide to cancel the series at 4th ship?

Now had they committed to building more it would be different story but they just dropped it and any announced derivative like enlarged Super Gorshkov or upgraded frigate sized Gorshkov will also require loads of testing.  

So back to square one.

Seriously, has this been confirmed?

No.

The man allways playing its role.

Why don't you do your role and go f**k yourself you pisshead?

I must remember it was a previous warning about this, that I have been respecting.

Big_Gazza wrote:FFS, we STILL have idiots yabbering about "11 years to build a 4.5kT frigate..."

Please allow an adult set you straight...

1) Engine supply means the 3rd & 4th hull cannot be completed yet, so work proceeds slowly.  

2) No additional vessels laid as this would result in more unfinished hulls filling up shipyard slots.

3) Protracted testing of lead unit to FULLY debug all new systems.

4) Second unit is low priority.  Incorporate any needed changes as problems are found (and rectified) from lead unit testing.

5) Navy is apparently happy enough with current vessel that they will now proceed with an enlarged version (eg an AB equivalent) once domestic engines become available

Of course, the detractors would prefer that Russia simply waste money on hulls without engines, then rush a few into service in a bug-ridden state and fix/repair the ships at a later time?  Kinda like the F-35, get 'em flying now and fuck it if they don't work properly.  Its all about appearances and Corporate flummery anyways, and the shareholders make more money this way....

Let the children play, while the adults do what adults do.

1. So second and first hull.

2. you're trying to distract from the point, they have the engine issues fixed and have for awhile they could have started laying more down along time ago. Are you that silly to think the company one day just went to the MoD and was like "Hey we finished the engine thing" no the MoD knew WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY in advance when that project would be done. They could have easily laid ships down a year before then. Even after that they did not. You basically saying "Hey look at this one small window and ignore everything else" sorry kiddo not all the real world works.

3. LoL it doesn't take 11 years to do this for a 5k ton ship, this is nothing but a fanboy filled excuse, again Russian forum I know there is mainly fanboys here who cannot see fault where a fault is do. Makes it pointless to have conversations if your just going to make excuses.

4. The second unit is a priority? are you kidding me? they need those frigates NOW. Those ships ARE priority for the Russians, they need to replace their relic soviet era stuff and they want to. Those Frigates will be the main ships in their surface fleet and you think they aren't a priority? Again excuses and fanboyism.

5. Happy enough? based on what they haven't even gotten one in service for them to be happy with it. Oh but I guess testing a ship for over 6 years makes them happy? okay then. Just because they want a bigger version doesn't mean they are happy with it. It could mean they cannot build that 17k ship they wanted, could mean there were huge designs flaws with the regular versions that they need to correct with a new one. You don't know you honestly think the Russians are honest with stuff like this?. All countries lie, I realize this is a hard concept for you but just because Russia says something doesn't mean they are being truthful.

I happen to agree and think the F-35 is shit oh whats this I was able to be critical of my own country!?, however, none of what you said has any points your focusing only on points that help your argument and kiddo I am too old for silly stuff like that. If you cant say there is a problem where a problem is then you are part of said problem.

The French Stealth Frigate "La Fayette" has entered the Black Sea.

The Russians are saying their tracking station in the Crimea could see it hundreds of kilometres away...all the way when it sailed into the Bosphorus apparently

https://topwar.ru/130036-francuzskiy-fregat-nevidimku-zasekli-rossiyskie-radary.html

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Cyberspec wrote:The French Stealth Frigate "La Fayette" has entered the Black Sea.

The Russians are saying their tracking station in the Crimea could see it hundreds of kilometres away...all the way when it sailed into the Bosphorus apparently

https://topwar.ru/130036-francuzskiy-fregat-nevidimku-zasekli-rossiyskie-radary.html

Meeh this was not Russian radars but a stink of French  cheese

That's bullshit. Which radar in russia could detect a ship in the bosphorus ? No one its impossible.

PapaDragon wrote:
OK people, this is from  State Armament Program for 2018-2027 (thanks Austin)

http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/russias-military-modernization-plans-2018-2027

Despite grandiose plans being mooted in documents such as the recently approved naval doctrine, Russia is planning to focus its naval construction on submarines and small ships. In surface ships, the focus will be on new corvettes of several different types that will have greater displacement and better armament than existing classes, as well as the start of serial production of the long-delayed Admiral Gorshkov-class of frigates. Until the problems with the Admiral Gorshkov are resolved, the Navy will continue to build the less advanced Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates.

The only new class of surface ships expected to be built in the next eight years are the so-called Super Gorshkov-class, an 8,000-ton frigate that is increasingly seen as a cheaper and more practical alternative to the 14,000-ton Lider-class destroyers. The key takeaway is that the Russian Navy is looking to increase the size of its smaller ships in order to increase their armament and endurance, while reducing costs by indefinitely postponing the procurement of larger ships such as destroyers, amphibious assault ships, and aircraft carriers.

As for submarines, SAP-2027 will undoubtedly include financing for the completion of six Yasen-M nuclear attack submarines and possibly for a seventh, as well as for the modernization of four to six each of the Soviet-era Oscar- and Akula-class nuclear attack submarines.

This is damn good plan if I do say so myself (not that anyone would ask me, myself included)

They have done designing all the ship types they require, now they just need to finally get them into production.

Missile ships, corvettes and frigates. Nice and simple. And if they do throw in some more Yasen subs in the mix it will be beyond excellent.

Only unknown is lack of transport ships but as Syria has shown it can be handled with standard civilian vessels, no need to chase some fancy new projects.
Just order 20 or 30 RoRo ships in bulk from South Korea, paint them gray, install radars and comms and they are golden. Zubr hovercrafts can handle beaches (they plan on restarting production of those anyway)

Glad they dropped the whole supercarrier/nuke-destroyer shtick, it was not needed at all. One thing they could use is new helicopter carrier with STOVL option but they can do that later I guess...

No new heavy missile cruiser WTF are they thinking they only have 2 of those and they have a severe lack of destroyers.

They have more than enough spam boats to cover their own waters the navy needs some offensive weapons that aren't nuclear.

PapaDragon wrote:
OK people, this is from  State Armament Program for 2018-2027 (thanks Austin)

This is about the State Armament Program, not from the State Armament Program. This is a preview made by outside organizations. It is an external analysis. Thanks to Austin, note that he never said this is from the State Armament Program 2018-2025 like you said.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#209938

Obviously you like, and the reason is also obvious.

They haven't even built a single destroyer and destroyers are intended as numbers ships in the first place.

eehnie wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
OK people, this is from  State Armament Program for 2018-2027 (thanks Austin)

This is about the State Armament Program, not from the State Armament Program. This is a preview made by outside organizations. It is an external analysis. Thanks to Austin, note that he never said this is from the State Armament Program 2018-2025 like you said.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#209938

Obviously you like, and the reason is also obvious.

This is proof that Russian Defense ministry and Finance ministry read Russiadefenceforum        

Keep posting guys, our opinions matter

On a more serious note, great move by Russia!

PapaDragon wrote:
OK people, this is from  State Armament Program for 2018-2027 (thanks Austin)

http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/russias-military-modernization-plans-2018-2027

It's not, it starts off with

This memo summarizes publicly available information regarding the types of armaments that will be procured for the Russian military in the next eight years and assesses the likelihood that the Russian government will be able to meet these commitments

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

The-thing-next-door wrote:

No new heavy missile cruiser WTF are they thinking they only have 2 of those and they have a severe lack of destroyers.

They have more than enough spam boats to cover their own waters the navy needs some offensive weapons that aren't nuclear.

Gorshkov-M, with 8000 tons displacement (and the resulting armament), will be a destroyer, not a frigate.

Same class as the chinese 052D class destroyer, while the new chinese 055, with 13000 tons and 112VLS is a cruiser.

If they ever realize the leader, even if they insist calling it a destroyer, that will be an heavy cruiser

Speaking of the Leader when will they be building that? I guess they are waiting on the S-500 and new CIWS systems to mature that would make sense.

Although if Russia had enough spam boats armed with mid course interceptors and ASW systems they cold create a standoff anti missile and anti sub defence network covering most of Russia north against nuclear attack.

The-thing-next-door wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

The-thing-next-door wrote:

No new heavy missile cruiser WTF are they thinking they only have 2 of those and they have a severe lack of destroyers.

They have more than enough spam boats to cover their own waters the navy needs some offensive weapons that aren't nuclear.

Gorshkov-M, with 8000 tons displacement (and the resulting armament), will be a destroyer, not a frigate.

Same class as the chinese 052D class destroyer, while the new chinese 055, with 13000 tons and 112VLS is a cruiser.

If they ever realize the leader, even if they insist calling it a destroyer, that will be an heavy cruiser

Speaking of the Leader when will they be building that? I guess they are waiting on the S-500 and new CIWS systems to mature that would make sense.

Although if Russia had enough spam boats armed with mid course interceptors and ASW systems they cold create a standoff anti missile and anti sub defence network covering most of Russia north against nuclear attack.

going by this document Lider won't exist for another Decade at the least if they do build them.

Poor Russian Navy always get fucked the worst

Then execute someone this level incompetence is absolutely unacceptable. The Lider class should be to priority.

The-thing-next-door wrote:Then execute someone this level incompetence is absolutely unacceptable. The Lider class should be to priority.

Lider isn't top priority. Subs are.

PapaDragon wrote:

The-thing-next-door wrote:Then execute someone this level incompetence is absolutely unacceptable. The Lider class should be to priority.

And what would they need Liders for that is so urgent?

Because a proper navy needs some destroyers the Lider class would be incredibly usefull in both nuclear and conventional warfare so what is the excuse for not building it.