Indo-China dispute

GarryB wrote:Good... that means they are so afraid of it they are planning to attack them before they are launched rather than deal with them as they arrive on target.

Their obvious problem is that there is a first batch of 40 odd missiles but that will no doubt be followed up with purchases of larger batches so the ability to deal with them before they can be launched will only get harder.

Ironically designing a truck based launcher that stores the missiles in a standard shipping crate would mean every truck near the Chinese border carrying such a load on its back will make pre-emptive self defence impossible.

Of course not putting missiles along your border would go a long way to lowering tensions and keeping the peace... they are light and highly mobile so you could put them on a plane and fly them to the border easily and quickly enough without the tension created by basing them there in the first place.

The key to escalations is don't rush to ratchet up the pressure because it always just costs you more money in the long run.

I'm not sure peace is possible in the long-term

China is ratcheting up the pressure on India. Not even with this whole border-dispute thing, that is a sideshow

The real problem is their support of Pakistan and indirectly, the Taliban movement which can send Islamists into India. So China basically has India surrounded from both sides and this backs them into a corner. It's natural that they're going to want support from the US and to upgrade their air-force and everything else.

For peace China will have to take the initiative and offer some gestures of good-will. Then we can talk about a triumvirate of Russia-India-China for a multi-polar order in Eurasia, as per Primakov's ideas.

Chinese are suggesting that their S-400 missile batteries placed in Tibet will shoot down the BRAHMOs quite easily.

Why would you be launching Brahmos missiles into Tibet for?

Why is China being able to defend itself a threat to India?

I rather suspect India could build more Brahmos missiles than China has S-400 missiles so that sounds like a good way for India to get China to waste their S-400s in large numbers.

China is ratcheting up the pressure on India.

But are they though? China has had a good relationship with Pakistan, but so has the US in the recent past too... does that threaten India... does India see the US as a danger because they fund and support Pakistan?

The real problem is their support of Pakistan and indirectly, the Taliban movement which can send Islamists into India.

The core promoter and defender of Islamic nutters is Saudi Arabia and the US bends over backwards to defend them too, yet India is happy to ignore all that.... why?

If India picks the US as a buddy... ignoring all the bullshit and influence they use around the world to start or create unnecessary wars, including supporting ISIS and terrorists in Syria and Libya trying to overthrow governments the US does not approve of... how difficult is it to expect some time down the track India does something that annoys the US and they let the islamic dogs loose on India too?

China has no history of using the Taleban to attack anyone... the US uses islamic militants all through africa and the middle east and in Russia and China to destabilise governments they don't approve of... I would say if they can forgive the US then it would be much easier and simpler and more sensible to instead forgive China and completely bypass the whole new cold war and India China rivalry the US wants to create to weaken both parties...

Within 5 years India will be buying hand me down US ships and aircraft and other items because french and russian systems wont be compatible so they will be spending billions on US handme downs to create a navy for the express purpose of challenging China... and for what... to weaken China economically so the US can continue to dominate the region and the world...

It is a trap... and the US sailing into Indian waters and demanding they cancel their order for Su30MKI upgrades and S-400 purchases show they really don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and are the last group India should be allying with.

However, as flamming_python correctly pointed out Pakistan's role in promoting and exporting Islamic terrorists into India cannot be discounted.

So China is bad for supporting Pakistan because Pakistan is involve with islamic terrorists attacking India...

But the US is fine for also supporting Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who have already broken Syria and Libya by and Yemen funding islamic terrorists and also Afghanistan multiple times funding islamic nutters with the support of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

The US also politically and militarily supported chechen terrorists in Russia and is now planning to create a muslim nutter uprising in China.... but China is bad and the US is good.

The US has a proven record of dominating the entire planet and of using countries against each other to prevent some countries becoming too powerful that they might threaten Americas position as world dominance hegemony.... right now they are using the EU to limit and contain Russia and they are currently using Japan and South Korea and Australia and India against China in an effort to limit and contain China.

Do you not see part of the strategy is to damage their allies too?

The EU and India eventually could be just as big a threat to US rule as Russia or China so they are increasing energy costs for the EU and at the same time generating income for their own companies in the process BTW, while with India I am sure a massive naval expansion which will require India to buy a whole lot of old US Navy shit and some new expensive US Navy shit that they will obviously benefit from too... France loses a contract to sell conventional subs to Australia and the UK gains a contract that will likely cost Australia five or six times more than that for SSNs they don't even need... you can bet Australia will end up having to buy other stuff to keep those subs safe in foreign waters...

But it is up to India which direction to head... remember the US is using you and they know you are using them too but they will get your moneys worth... this is not their first rodeo. They didn't get rich and enormously powerful by accident... and certainly not because they are such nice guys.

Sadly though I love my country, I would highly suggest foreign powers be wary of ingratiating themselves with America, as it comes with heavy prices. Our hard and soft power and the tools we have developed to enact it are inextricably linked to the ideology of the neolib and neocon hegemons. I would not trust any complex weaponry bought from America these days.

If there were more Americans like you then America might actually be the force for good your leadership pretends to be...

Money is power and way too much of both corrupts.... sadly Americas foreign policy reflects that... its seems to be more about wielding power or increasing wealth for a few already wealthy people at the expense of everything else...

China has deployed long range HQ-9 SAM system close to the Indian border. In response India has deployed Smerch MLRS and BrahMos LACM.

A circular game of mindless escalation that leads to immense waste and stress... all these systems are fully mobile and could be removed or brought back overnight... the actual significance is nothing except the response reduces trust and sets the ball rolling for more escalations and money spending on shit neither side really needs... there are other things both sides could be spending money on.

India is cognizant of the role being played by US and Saudi Arabia in nurturing Islamic terrorism. However, as flamming_python correctly pointed out Pakistan's role in promoting and exporting Islamic terrorists into India cannot be discounted.

So what you are saying is that both are dirty bastards, but you are signing agreements and pacts with one while rejecting the other... sounds very short sighted to me.

If you think China is the enemy and you need big bad untrustworthy America to weaken China, then what you think you are doing the US is doing to you.

I'm curious how did you arrive at this figure of 5 years? India has been purchaing Western military hardware even before India started to purchase similar hardware from the Soviet Union. The only difference is U.K has now been replaced by the U.S.

The hard sell has not even started yet... soon they will be pointing to Chinas massive increase in military ship production and might even offer some of its old obsolete aircraft carriers... for which you will obviously have to buy US aircraft to operate from and then of course you will need a dozen expensive cruisers to defend your new old carrier and of course all the support ships you will need for your extended operations in the China sea defending US... oops.... our shared interests...

India primarily exports software, which is a very competitive market.

India has more to share than just software, and should be developing its own software rather than pandering to the US market making US software for them.

The point is that even if you succeed there is no room for India in the western world... just like there is no room for a powerful Russia or a powerful China... at some point using you as a weapon to damage China and Russia the US will decide India is too strong and needs to be stopped... or do you just expect to remain the same?

I think it would be good for China to soften its stance towards India. I think there are ways of supporting Pakistan without causing further harm. Though I dont think China is supplying the very top notch to Pakistan.

I think that is part of the problem in strategic thinking... I don't think China see their sales and trade with Pakistan as "supporting" them any differently than they might see all the western products made in China and sent to western countries means they are supporting the west.

America and the west like to use their money and military power as weapons, but sometimes selling something to a country is just selling them something... Pakistan buys Russian helicopters too.

Mindless indeed....how is Smerch and Brahmos an answer to China's HQ-9 SAM?

China also has MLRS deployed and the HQ-9 will shoot down the Brahmos.

Fire Smerch at the HQ-9 SAMs located near the border till they are running low on SAMs and then fire a few low flying Brahmos missiles to try to take out the launchers and radar and support vehicles... it depends if they deploy a token battery or if they deploy them properly...

But of course the reverse is true as well, China has a lot more money to piss away on weapons than India does... not that either country should do that.

I am glad both countries see they have so much money they can waste it on such things.

With an economy 1/4th the size of China there is not much that India can offer to Russia. India can be held responsible for being an economic underachiever - a country that steadfastly refuses to develop but not for messing its relations with Russia.

It is not about buying Russias love and attention... India has enormous potential and the US sees that... that is why they are trying to separate you from Russia and China (BRICS) and get you to escalate mindless hostilities with China so you weaken each other the way they broke the EU and tried to damage Russia very recently.

In a sense Russia probably didn't have much of a future with the EU because that relationship was never going to change to equals... there was never going to be any respect for Russia in those relationships.

Would say the same regarding India and Australia and the US and the UK... I mean look at the UKs history of doing shit to India and even America and also China but India wants to be on their team against China???

Britain didn't fix your problems or make you prosperous because that was never their intention and the US wont either.

The idea behind BRICS is helping each other develop and grow and not hold each other back.

The west would say that is not playing the game... screw the west.

Now it is up to India to try and negotiate with Russia for better weapons and countering those S-400's. Along with that, India needs to place the systems near the Chinese border, to attempt to force China to negotiations.

And if India moved a few ground units to a new location on the border with China... what would China do?

Getting better weapons from Russia or anywhere is not the solution because that is just escalation and China has the money to massively out capacity anyone... right now they are building more ships a year than the Royal Navy has in its entire fleet... and we can't be sure they are building them at full capacity yet either...

Buying new shiny weapons to put on the border only because China put some S-400s there would be stupid and short sighted.

If India wants to talk about the situation they should approach China and talk about it... actually be open and honest... I am sure they will appreciate it... if you think they are not being honest and open with you then talk about that... don't just assume and listen to the chinese whispers coming from the west to poison your mind against the Chinese.

They are your neighbours and are not going anywhere... even afull scale nuclear war would not kill all the Chinese or Indian people so you are going to remain neighbours for the forseeable future.

The UK and US and Australia can piss off home if things get to bloody or too radioactive... and don't fool yourself... they will.

China has very little to offer Russia besides general goods and used semiconductors or ones from banned companies as is.

China is a huge market for Russian clean green food exports with no GMOs and steriods and other BS the US uses... no wonder their kids don't know what gender they are... Equally China is a good market for Russian gas and oil and coal and other materials... they tend to want to make stuff themselves, but that might be OK for a few things anyway.

India is also a huge market for food and also to sell all sorts of other products... a lot of potential trade is ignored and not tried because there has been no history of it in the past.

Russia tended to look to the EU and US when there are other options.

China has enormous experience with electric and high speed trains but Russia was looking to Germany for projects in Russia... well now they have to go with China and that is a very good thing for both countries.

China has an enormous deficit of women... lots of Indian women....

One of the reasons the west likes to deal with dictatorships is because of their stabiility... once you bribe them and get them on side you don't have to bribe them or threaten them again come election time...

That is until the dictator is wise to their games and cannot be bought or controlled... that includes democratically elected dictators like Putin and Chavez and Morales and Assad and Gaddafi, but also Saddam and other real dictators.

I frankly find India much safer to trust than China. I dont see the provocations seen by India as I do by China. If I am wrong I am open to correction.

Russia expects them both to treat Russia with respect and Russia in turn will treat them with respect and wont piss on their shoes and tell them it is raining.

Normal countries don't provoke other countries and if their actions upset a neighbour they talk to them about it to sort things out... they don't escalate the situation... that is just stupid... that is what you do with an enemy you can't talk with.

China can be Indias enemy if India wants that and India can be Chinas enemy if China wants that, and that is easy but also very expensive and very dangeous... the US wants that... which tells you it is good for the US and bad for China and India.

How long before some Washington thinktank comes up with the brilliant realisation that the US LCS ships that are so useless they have already started scrapping them, would be ideal for India to build up a fleet quickly to contain China.

They can remove anything of value or interest from the ships and then sell them to India for top dollar and the super boats they were promised to be... but clearly are not... they can even use the old sales material to sell it.

As an American you probably see China as being more of a threat with likely rather more nukes and missiles than India has, but honestly I would say they mainly think that because with elections in India they get lots of chances all the time to pervert elections and get western friendly people into important positions within the structures of power in India... no such chances exist in China.

The west uses poor countries for cheap labour to make their stuff, but eventually they have to move on because wages and workers rights improve over time... the west has been doing this since WWII... Japan and West Germany were essentially slave labour just after the war and worked in factories built by the west which gave them power and control... how could they complain wages were not high enough?

But over time wages did improve so production was moved to other places while production in West Germany and Japan switched from cheap crap to quality... obviously things like optics and precision machinery remained intact and couldn't be brought in from outside those two countries because they had better standard stuff than the west did...

Countries like Singapore and Malaysia and most other Asian countries have been used for cheap labour and have built their societies around that investment, and have fared differently depending on how they took advantage at the time.

The Chinese government clearly made sensible moves that the country has massively benefitted from and therefore the people have benefitted as well, so even when the west pulls everything out of China they wont collapse or be seriously damaged, they have the momentum to keep growing.

I rather suspect India is sucking up to the US in particular because it wants to tread the same path China has just walked and don't want the west to go to Bangledesh instead... I can understand that of course, but if you look at Russias development over the last 20 years the west invested only in resources and energy that would make them a lot of money, so now they are leaving it will likely hurt the west more than it hurts Russia... Russia just needs to invest in the right things moving forward to prevent damage from the split with the west, but they have China and India and the rest of the world to work with... as does China and India... the west is not the only solution to a good life any more and that is why they are shitting themselves... they no longer control the path to a comfortable first world life...

Indians are great people. But I have also met so many Chinese people too who are also very great people and open to talking about any kind of issue and willing to work with you. Both have a lot in common but both hate each other.

There was a lot of hostility in Russia towards China too... and now they realise they are a hell of a lot more reliable and trustworthy than the Europeans and the west... They are not perfect, but they are not sending weapons to a war zone specifically to murder Russians and Russian soldiers... and nor is India.

Always got the feeling that China was a neighbour to Russia, but India was just a good customer for which they didn't otherwise know a lot about.

I suspect the deluge of western culture into Russia sidelined Russians learning about Chinese and Indian culture... I hope that changes, because most western culture and history is seriously edited by the west and most of it is easy to confirm bullshit... I mean right now Stalin was as bad as Hitler was in WWII in western history classes... and he was the worst Russian after Putin... despite being Georgian.

India can be a wonderful country, but they need to come to terms with themselves and see that the future of India isn't outside of India but internally.

Whether they let the US destroy them in a pointless arms race and possibly conflict with China, or wake up to what is going on before it is too late and trillions are wasted, their future is very promising... but like the EU... if they listen to the *Chinese whispers* from the US they will end up screwing themselves over and only the US will benefit from the chaos that ensues.

* note Chinese whispers is a western game where you get a ring of people preferably a large number like a classroom of kids and one person makes up a message and whispers it to the person on one side of them... the message is passed around the circle till it comes to the person who sent it who preferably has it written down. The message the person gets back is compared with the message sent.

The game has many other names like Whisper down the lane or Grapevine... in this context I thought the Chinese whispers name was ironic considering it is in fact the US hyping up what China does or does not say and does or does not do to India to provoke and conflict and hostility for the benefit of the US.

I notice online it mentions Chinese whispers is considered as racist by some, which is BS... there are a lot of Chinese New Zealanders, but most of the children spoke English anyway... often the smartest kids in school were Chinese here.

It isn't economics, it isn't its military. It is its social structure that is rotten to the core and needs to be fixed. Once it is fixed, they will be feared and also viewed favorably so long as it doesnt go to their heads. At that point, it would be in India's interest to not look for allies and joining big clubs, but to be a central roll for others to join. Until then, it really cannot be taken seriously.

The concept regarding BRICS is about independence of each member and a group of countries with no leader or agenda except free trade and helping each other country to develop and grow and settle differences.

There is no top dog and no leading country forcing other countries to support them or supply troops for this or that conflict.

For a country wanting to develop and grow the resources and technology and knowhow of Russia and China would be valuable and as they grow and develop they can share with other countries around them.

Ironic because you would think from the propaganda bullshit you get from the US that that is what they try to do but they do the opposite and shown clearly with how they treat the EU and Russia and China and any other region that shows independence... it crushes and turns them into zombie drones like the EU or it excommunicates them like Russia and next China.