Decline of the western society

nomadski wrote:Disagree. Using your example of the knife is valid. But not because the knife is good. But because the knife is bad. A good knife, can only be used for a good purpose. How?  Well there was recently an attempt by the British police to distribute safety knives to homes, where there was domestic abuse. To stop people stabbing each other. These knives lacked a sharp point. But had a sharp edge.

The same with old religious law. A tool that can harm. Take for example the law of men being allowed to marry four wives. They say, this was for a time of war. But economic hardship, brought about by exploitation, ( capitalism) brings about the same effect. The poor unable to marry. And the rich able to marry  and take more than  their fair share of brides to be. Further damaging society. And this aspect of Islam is wrong. The wrong law. The wrong knife. But can we say Islam is wrong?  The same as we can say you or I, are wrong?   I could name many more examples. But this only one example  will suffice. It falsifies the absolutism of thought. But do the wealthy and previlaged, allow criticism? No. They call others Kafirs. Sentence to death. They can not afford to loose the unquestioning obidience of the masses. And have them question authority. Loose power. The reality is, that in the kitchen, you need many knives. As any good cook knows. And some knives can not be used and are old and rusty. And some new knives, a present for you from neighbour, are only good for cutting bread. And you do not eat sliced bread. Yet..........


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/world/europe/domestic-abuse-blunt-knives.amp.html

Anything around could be used to kill, like the fork ,stone or even a cup of glass .But people designed some tools to ease the life but unfortunately those tools could be used in a nother harmful ways .

A tool that can harm. Take for example the law of men being allowed to marry four wives. They say, this was for a time of war

Polygyny has been practiced by many religions and cultures over the years .The Qur’an permits only a restricted and limited form of that practice.

In seventh-century Arabia, when a man could have as many wives as he chose, to prescribe only four was a limitation, not a license to new oppression.

Notice that the Quran permits but does not command a man to have four wives.

In reality it is very rare. Only less than 1 % of Muslim marriages worldwide are of this nature ,the Quran stipulates that a man is responsible for the maintenance of his wife or wives .If a man has more than one wife, he has to provide separate living accommodation for each of his wives and divide his time and money and treatment equally among them. If he cannot apply this, the Qur’an stipulates that he is to have no more than one wife.

t is unfortunate that the Western media often gives the wrong impression of what Islam is all about .Popular films like Harem give an absurd and inflated picture of the sexual life of the Muslim sheikh which reveals more about Western fantasy than it does about the reality

I met thousands of people in my life and i didn't see even a single one who applied Polygyny .Actually it's refused from the wife too and she will go to divorce him if he did .

Bro we can't handle one woman .Four women ? the guy will be dead at 30 .

GarryB wrote:I think religion would be more respectable if it spoke out a bit more.

Most religious groups will complain when it is being targeted by bigots, but how often do you hear muslim groups condemn attacks on christians or jews by muslim groups?

How often do christian groups say... no... you are not attacking Iraq in our name because christianity is a religion of peace not war... when was the last time you saw a jewish group say... hey israel... why do you treat palestinians the way you do... no wonder they fight back...

But no... they play the victim but never the bad guy... a bit like the Americans... we killed 3 million Vietnamese but we did it for their own good...

The attacks which done by some Muslims groups are rejected by all Muslim countries . The problem is the western countries  itself are doing the terrorism against others and such leaders will not be sorry for their terrorism because it was justfied by security not by religion !

@ Ahmedfire

You are right about western media giving wrong image of Islam. Even when Islam is practiced by reasonable men. In sensible way. But still, the sensible and reasonable man, has to avoid many practices that are harmful. I can name for example, amputations, stoning, imposition of excessive and unhealthy attire for women, inheritance law and taxation law,  excessive praying, outdated  dietary advice and restrictions,  excessive reliance on charity to address social problems, allowing root cause of problems to exist, not to mention that there is no stipulations about modern life. In it's many forms. Pollution and exploitation can be practiced.  Dictatorships can be practiced. No stipulations about modern political forms. For all these we need modern science and modern social science. A new language to describe the world. Progressive Muslims, need to develop their own vocabulary to describe the world. But the world has already done this. We do not need to reinvent the wheel.

@ KVS

Agree. The islamist movement in many countries failed to win public support. And became an instrument of oppression against the people. A vehicle for extremism and anti - democratic movements. In Algeria it was rejected. In Egypt it was rejected. In Syria. In Sudan it helped  fight the socialist movement. In Iran the same. Indonesia  the same. Separatist conflict and partition of India  ( fault of both religions). In Afghanistan it bacame an instrument for sectarianism. In Saudi, an apparatus of oppression. In Turkey, a tendency  for sectarianism and  extremism. Sub - Sahara Africa is full of extremist Islamist, engaged in sectarian and violent conflict. Al- Shabab, Boko - Haram. Only in Lebanon, it forms a democratic movement. In Yemen, it is rejected by the socialists. But perhaps this time it is not their fault. And they did not try to impose their ideas on others. Islam, like other religious ideology, does not seem to provide the answers, in most cases.

When I am talking about what Islam, I am not talking about what happened over hundreds of years ago, I am talking about what Islam and muslims will do to the west right now and in 10 years and that is it will slowly erode and destroy the western countries.

that is it will slowly erode and destroy the western countries.

To be fair the erosion of ethics and morals and values in the west it has been doing more to destroy itself than anything you can blame other people for.

Equally when you push then you have to expect them to push back... the west has been pushing hard at everything it sees... of course it will get responses...

@ parfar

"......... I am not talking about what happened over hundred years ago.........."

These laws exist now. They are written down. And many things in modern world, are not written down. Omitted.

@ parfar

It is not in the past. I was exiled at the age of 24, for being a socialist. I supported the Islamic revolution. My father was a socialist. My uncle was a socialist. My grandfather was a socialist and exiled internally during Shah time. My great grandfather was in the constitution revolution...............

The Iranian right wing, has refusd to form a Democratic Republic for the past fifty years or more. Not the revolutionary left. It is not over. It is not in the past.

kvs wrote:

ahmedfire wrote:

GarryB wrote:I think religion would be more respectable if it spoke out a bit more.

Most religious groups will complain when it is being targeted by bigots, but how often do you hear muslim groups condemn attacks on christians or jews by muslim groups?

How often do christian groups say... no... you are not attacking Iraq in our name because christianity is a religion of peace not war... when was the last time you saw a jewish group say... hey israel... why do you treat palestinians the way you do... no wonder they fight back...

But no... they play the victim but never the bad guy... a bit like the Americans... we killed 3 million Vietnamese but we did it for their own good...

The attacks which done by some Muslims groups are rejected by all Muslim countries . The problem is the western countries  itself are doing the terrorism against others and such leaders will not be sorry for their terrorism because it was justfied by security not by religion !

Clearly in Syria there was no condemnation by "Muslim countries" of the slaughter of minority religion communities.
In fact, the jihadi vermin that were doing the slaughter had outright support by Saudi Arabia and its allies in the middle east.
That is on top of the support from NATzO.

It depends on which side the (Muslim) countries were aligned with during the Cold War. All the relatively secular Muslim countries who were Aligned with the USSR opposed it, but all the US-aligned GCC vermin (monarchy) states supported the hostilities. Remember the Western states were advocating Islamic Jihad and glorifying Jihadists during the Cold War.

Oh Ronald Reagan, you putz, you schmuck, this didn't age well...

nomadski wrote:@ Ahmedfire

You are right about western media giving wrong image of Islam. Even when Islam is practiced by reasonable men. In sensible way. But still, the sensible and reasonable man, has to avoid many practices that are harmful. I can name for example, amputations, stoning, imposition of excessive and unhealthy attire for women, inheritance law and taxation law,  excessive praying, outdated  dietary advice and restrictions,  excessive reliance on charity to address social problems, allowing root cause of problems to exist, not to mention that there is no stipulations about modern life. In it's many forms. Pollution and exploitation can be practiced.  Dictatorships can be practiced. No stipulations about modern political forms. For all these we need modern science and modern social science. A new language to describe the world. Progressive Muslims, need to develop their own vocabulary to describe the world. But the world has already done this. We do not need to reinvent the wheel.
.

You have a very traditional idea regarding many things in Islam .

As example there is no stoningin and other punishments in most of the Islamic countries,may be two or three countries only which add it in their laws but it’s also not applied in most cases . This because a simple fact this punishment conditions are very hard to be applied . To prove the case there are two ways , first : the man must admit that he slept with a random women but no one will admit that , second : four witnesses must see the guy’s penis inside the girl’s vagina and this is near impossible to be proved .

Even in Saudi Arabia in the last 20 years ,there is no any  stoningin cases. In Egypt ,Alazher University already rejected to apply such laws , we have a civil laws near to the French one , the same for most Islamic countries .

So why Islam considered that punishment if it’s hard to be proved ? the simple answer is the punishment in the Islam is not made to be applied, the punishment is made to prevent the crime and force the criminal to think twice before committing the crime.

Also, this punishment in sharia law has a conditions : The normal citizen must be able to have a job, house and marry. so you can’t treat the criminals in Australia as the criminals in Somalia . In Islam ,the ruler must provide the people first with their needs before applying the laws that you mentioned .

But as i said before , the majority of Islamic countries are not using these laws .

Pollution and exploitation can be practiced

Please state the numbers regarding Pollutions around the world to prove the point .

Actually exploitation spreaded widely in the west . A quarter of suspected or identified trafficking victims in Europe are children and the main goal of human traffickers is sexual exploitation . Out of 20,500 victims who were registered in the European Union in 2015-16, 56% of cases were related to trafficking for sexual exploitation, while 26% of cases were related to labour exploitation. One in four victims is under 18 and two out of three victims are women or girls.

What about using 13,14,15 and even 20 years old boys to film porn videos with 30,40,50 and 60 years old women ?!
Abusing Women to film porn videos ?!

The Nigerian girls and women who arrive in Italy after a journey through Libya and by sea, where they are subjected to abuse and violence, are then indebted to the “maman”, the female figure who manages their exploitation. These travel debts can reach 30,000 euros. Girls can be forced to "work" up to 12 hours every night. A large part of the earned money is used to pay for food, accommodation and clothes, and often also to rent the spot in the street where they are forced into prostitution, which makes the extinction of their debt almost unattainable.

Dictatorships can be practiced

Yes could be but it's also practiced everywhere .

Progressive Muslims, need to develop their own vocabulary to describe the world.

Every community has its own habits ,West need to respect that .Chinese communities in U.S wouldn't get rid of their habits and movies like "IP man " shows how much disrespect against the Chinese there.

This atricle claims that "China still isn’t beloved abroad, at least not to the extent that America is " HAHAHAHAHA actually everyone hates U.S including Chinese ,Arabs ,Russians ,Latinos ..etc

Why Is China So … Uncool? – Foreign Policy

So the west has no right to specify who is civilised and who is not and which traditions everyone should keep.

What Muslims needs from the west is to respect them and stop bombing and stealing them and stop arming some groups ,calling them "Jihadists" and stop  supporting a terrorist country like Israel .

Clearly in Syria there was no condemnation by "Muslim countries" of the slaughter of minority religion communities.
In fact, the jihadi vermin that were doing the slaughter had outright support by Saudi Arabia and its allies in the middle east.
That is on top of the support from NATzO.

At the begining of "Arab Spring" revolutions did happen in Tunisia and Egypt ,so it wasn't clear what is happening in Syria and the things changed rapidly .

I agree that SA did a mistake supporting the powers against the regime there because from our experience the things would be worse not better . But most of Arab world didn't support against Bashar , later on SA removed her hands out of that .

@ Ahmedfire

The first point about personal relations. Excluding prostitution. It is nobody's concern. Apart from people involved. If they are not married , and have children, then the law can treat them as married. If one is married and the other not, then they have grounds for legal divorce. Killing one or both deprives them of life. Makes children Orphan. The reason this law is not practiced. Is because it is wrong. And it is good that we do not practice bad laws. These laws were not made to simply scare people. Since no stipulation has been made. They are simply outdated and wrong. Islam  can be wrong.

When I said pollution. I meant industrial pollution. Or air pollution. Since Muslims could not predict the industrial revolution, capitalist exploitation. There are no laws against it. In this sense it is no good and of no value to us. And we must use modern science to explain. Islam can be outdated.

Islam has no blue print for modern state formation. And no some other places can not have dictatorship. Because they have modern state and Democracy. Islam can lack modern social science. Political theory.

No man is an island. Humanity learn from each other's experience. The Europeans in dark ages learnt from Muslims. They were more advanced. The Muslims can learn from others, that are more advanced. Islam needs to and can learn from others.

nomadski wrote:@ parfar

"......... I am not talking about what happened over hundred years ago.........."

These laws exist now. They are written down. And many things  in modern world, are not written down. Omitted.

What does these laws say today?

I have to three main reasons(there many more but these are the main ones) why the west will decline:

1.) Islam- Where ever Islam goes, it's aim is always to take over population wise and politically and that is what is happening to western counties. For some reason the globalists and the bankers want to destroy the west by using islam. There was a reason that Putin said not use "radical Islam"(unfortunately as we can see around the world majority of Islam is radical) to weaken Russia.





https://www.euronews.com/2013/10/22/russia-s-putin-warns-foreign-rivals-not-to-use-islam-to-weaken-the-russia-state

There is a reason why Europe is launching a campaign against political Islam(we are not sure how sincere it is.)


https://www.ft.com/content/88c1e898-5269-11ea-90ad-25e377c0ee1f


https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/24/emmanuel-macrons-war-on-islamism-is-europes-future/

 


2.)  Immigrants and Crimes- I can post lot's of videos and links of Immigrants committing crimes but I don't think there is any need for it because if you have see/read alternative media and videos on Youtube and elsewhere you have seen the crimes.


3.) Too many Immigrants and money leaving western countries- Wealth is moving to the East from the west. I saw a video a while back where James Wolfensohn, former president of The World Bank and CEO of Wolfensohn and Co. is talking about how the leading wealth is moving towards East. This was 10 years, it has just gotten worse. I believe one of the main reasons for this is that too many immigrants are coming in western countries and are on welfare(there were reports that many of refugees coming into Europe will be on benefits for a long time and the number of refugees coming into western countries is still growing.)    

nomadski wrote:@ Ahmedfire

The first point about personal relations. Excluding prostitution. It is nobody's concern. Apart from people involved. If they are not married , and have children, then the law can treat them as married. If one is married and the other not, then they have grounds for legal divorce. Killing one or both deprives them of life. Makes children Orphan. The reason this law is not practiced. Is because it is wrong. And it is good that we do not practice bad laws. These laws were not made to simply scare people. Since no stipulation has been made. They are simply outdated and wrong. Islam  can be wrong.
.

No one is being killed ,these laws are not applied and i described why before .

The society is free to decide the sexual relationship type between the two genders , as example ask 100 million in Egypt "Muslims and Christians" and they will choose what i said , this is the democracy i guess .

When I said pollution. I meant industrial pollution. Or air pollution. Since Muslims could not predict the industrial revolution, capitalist exploitation. There are no laws against it. In this sense it is no good and of no value to us. And we must use modern science to explain. Islam can be outdated.

China ,US ,India ,Russia and japan are the most polluting countries on the planet . US withdrawed from the Paris agreement because " it would undermine the U.S economy " as Trump said . Japan is the biggest consumer of fossil fuels in the world and the fifth largest emitter of greenhouse gases.

The world became a small villadge , the arabic region has hundred of thousands of factories , may be they have lower know-how technology than the west but they highly co-operate with eastern and western companies and factories . Also many countries here started to use a lot of ways to reduce pollution .

Islam has no blue print for modern state formation. And no some other places can not have dictatorship. Because they have modern state and Democracy. Islam can lack modern social science. Political theory.

Do you really claim that every part in the world is democratic except Muslim countries ?

Well it depends on your defenition of democracy because the west considered Qaddafi as a dictator but the libyans didn't .

The problem is west became professional on " how to fake a democracy " .

Political scientists (e,g., Dahl, Lijphart, Held) have proven empirically that there is no one true democracy, neither presently nor historically.Some scholars  even argue that America is not really democratic since the 'un-elected' nine judges can overturn  democratically made laws.

There is no one democracy. Democracy is an organism in a sense, adapting to existing social-political-economic environments. One could argue that one democracy is inferior to another democracy .

if even 100% of the civilian U.S. population did the same thing that they did in 1787 when voted to abolish their existing government, and establish a new one then it would now have zero legal effect.

Rather, only the government can change its own form, while the People can either accept it, mount a revolution, or face the consequences of defying the almighty self-proclaimed “national authority.”

So when did this change from 1787, and who changed it?

Answer: It changed at 1861, and was changed by the rich, by buying elections and lobbying the winners to claim supreme national authority over the People, and making total War on them to suppress the truth by killing hundreds of thousands via brute military force, dictatorship and censorship.

So democracy in western countries is fake democracy, and games of the rich to enslave the People to a covert plutocracy under the false belief that they’re free. Slavery wasn’t ended, only made universal and given token franchise and other privileges; but the People became the property of the federal government, to serve at its command.

Most people know that the rich rule everything, but this shows exactly how.

No man is  an island. Humanity learn from each other's experience. The Europeans in dark ages learnt from Muslims. They were more advanced. The Muslims can learn from others, that are more advanced. Islam needs to and can learn from others

I agree but it doesn't mean that Muslims should typically do whatever the west do .

@ parfar

Don't be silly .

Radical Muslims are attacking Muslim countries more than any country in the world .

Egypt and other countries declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist group and Russia did too but west is still funding them as the previous jihadists groups .

The real problem is consumerism... promoted by the west, but in the 1950s when only the Americans were enjoying the benefits things were much better... the father could earn enough on his salary to have a house and a car and a nice holiday every year and of course a holiday home somewhere. Mother could stay at home and look after the kids and the only thing to worry about was the Soviets and nuclear war.

But of course greed destroyed it all... homes have become unaffordable, and even just rent means you both need to work and of course childcare is expensive too... the culture of the grandparents being babysitters had been destroyed already...

But they still consume... so we went from Americans consuming more resources and energy than any other country, but now every country wants to follow them... China and India following the American model will destroy the planet and I don't mean that China and India are the bad guys, I mean America had a chance to lead... it keeps talking about it being the moral and ethic centre of the universe, but they turned that into more of a do as I say rather than do as I do sort of thing.

Greed won. Money won. It has perverted democracy which is now broken and the purpose of government and of the majority slaving several jobs to pay the bills is to make the 0.1% richer and to hell with everyone else.

Vann complains that Putin hasn't gone to war with the west, but he has done something better... he has started looking other places for allies and cooperation that is not part of the west because the west is broken... it might fix itself in time, but it wont even accept that it is broken right now so don't expect much for quite some time... and even worse when it realises it is in trouble and starts to thrash around to try to get out of the trap of its own making other countries are going to get hurt...

Even just the mention that the US blames the Chinese for the virus and might write off the US debt that China holds is enough for the US bond market to crash... because if they are going to do that sort of thing then you don't want to be left holding any US debt because when it suits them they will turn on anyone... even Saudi Arabia.... whom they ignored international cries regarding murder and dismemberment of a journalist on the orders of the leader of SA in a Saudi embassy in Turkey.

@ Ahmed fire

The political scientists you mentioned, I think rightly say that there are no perfect democracies now. But what they say also presupposes that they know or can think of a perfect or ideal democracy. Yet in Islam, there is no indication for a democracy, ideal or otherwise. This is a little bit surprising. Since the trading Arabs gained and learnt from the religion of the Jews and Christians and Zoroasterians, but not from the Greeks. It was the Greeks, who thought of democracy. Maybe because the Arabs,  who invented Islam, did not travel or traded that far.

I copy from Leibniz. The idea of perfectly mirrored worlds. A democracy can be perfect, when it is like a mirror unto society. Many systems in the world, are advanced in concept. If not in practice. The American system is not a democracy. But an oligarchy. Some European systems are more democratic in concept, like the British system. But the inclusion of Labour, into this system,  does not stipulate that MP's should be from the working class. The supposed representatives are mostly from propertied classes. The law here needs to change.

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/democracy-ancient-greece/

It is not so much that western democracies are completely corrupted. No in many ways they provide models for governance that is superior in function to those existing in Islamic countries. By inclusion at least in principle of all sections of society and different existing political ideology. The problem is that they want these systems for their own people, not our people.

I noticed you did not mention capitalist exploitation. Again in Islam, there is not and  perhaps could not be any description. Yet modern sociology, the work of Karl Marx. Explains this. Yet to mention Karl Marx, in Islamic countries, is not possible easily.  And social progress, is slow or impossible, without discussing fully, the cause of many social ills. In Iran, for example, since socialism is illegal. This has led to the strengthening of unrestrained and excessive capitalism. Small traders, who supported the Islamic revolution, have grown into big traders. In ideology more than wealth. They dream of the price of gold coins and the Dollar every day. And there are indications that politically, and in the face of political tensions, they will unite with Monarchists, resort to using armed forces to suppress demonstrations. To maintain their monopoly of power.

https://youtu.be/gR3igiwaeyc

@nomadski

The democracy in the west was designed by a way that it is impossible to be applicable to all, but only for those who can buy votes, purchase consciences, and trading with slogans in crises. The democrat application is merely a sale of governing, and that is why Winston Churchill said: "Democracy is the worst system can be introduced as long as it is not applicable to everyone."

Iran is an Islamic country and Mohammad Mosaddegh was a democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran. He was overthrown in a coup orchestred by the CIA and the MI6 because he wanted to nationalise the oil reserves if Iran. In the process thousands of innocent died. Someone could see what is considered as a wrong action when it is perpetrated by some countries, is considered as okay when perpetrated by the west, even if it put the lives of innocent in peril. Cause according some; "not every body is equal, some are more equal than others" (George Owell).

Libyans loved Qaddafi but west choosed to bomb the whole country and made the things worse .

Palestine can't try to apply democracy because it's occupied and Syria and Iraq are being boombed and west funding terrorists there .

So a more insightful question will be why does the west kill "democracy" in many countries (like in the middle east and latin america) but yet cherish it so well in their own countries.

For those of us who have left religion, especially in the West becoming more secularized, there is this gap where religion used to be. And what's filling it in the case of the U.S. is white nativism or ethno-nationalism. And we see the rise of far-right populist parties in Europe. In the Middle East, it just happens that people find that meaning in religion. In the U.S., people are searching.

The west claim that China is  dictatorship state , but what really Chineese think about that .



At  1:50 second the girl said “ I’m not jealous about democracy in other countries ,they shouldn’t be the ones defining what democracy is “ .

The guy at 3:30 said “ to protect our teenagers” , this was regarding the censorship on media there .

At 4:02 the gut said “ it protects our society from being chaotic .

But never the western reports give a shit about Chineese opinions because Westerners need to give the image that they are the best and everyone should follow their routes . Different societies have different thoughts and different types of democracies , what fits one society could take down the other .

Muslims have their own standards that can consist a good stable society and apply their own democracy too but the west should stop launching wars to change regimes and making the things worse .

I think you asked a good question, about why the west opposes democracy in other countries. But supports it in their own country. My answer, is that, like everything else, what gives power to another population, takes away from their power in the world. They can no longer dominate. They prefer to establish one person or a small group or minority in power, in an underdeveloped country. They can bribe or coerce this individual. To allow them to rule. But if majority of a population is in power, then they can not bribe or coerce. And they can not rule over the waves.

Using your example of  politics or religion being an instrument. Then the west may like a monopoly on these instruments. And not just these, but technological and industrial instruments. They want to be able to make and export goods. Not you. They like to make and sell medicines. Not you. It is monopoly capitalism.

It is good you mention the CIA coup against democratic government of Iran. But they achieved their objective by bribing hoodlums, to stage street agitation against Iranian nationalists. Like Ukraine recently. But they could not have done this, without the Iranians themselves. From 1950 to 1980, about 100,000 Iranian Democrats and socialists and some progressive clerics, were tortured and murdered by the Shah secret service. Under the guidance of US, torture advisers, who perfected their art in Vietnam, earlier. The vast majority of victims were socialists. But none of these could be done, without participation of Iranians themselves. But now we have no American torture advisers in Iran. But still torture is practiced. This time by the order of the state, against the vote of Parliament. Only God knows, who they choose to torture. And for what reason. So when I say, look at the corruption in the East, as well as West. I think it useful.

As to what best guides people. It is ignorance that best guides people. Racism, greed, hatred . All of God's prophets and revolutionaries and saints and philosophers have little effect. But at least if guidance is written down. And relevant and contemporary to conditions and reasonable and domocratic and scientific and written in simple language. Then at least it could be understood. By the very few.

As to the world now, greed dominates. Capitalism. Destruction. Capitalism with Chinese characteristics. Or Russian characteristics. Or Iranian characteristics. There is a lot of character there. The socialists themselves predicted capitalist production, to succeed feudalism. Then itself being replaced by socialism and then communism. But it looks like now, capitalism will be succeeded by environmental collapse and extinction.

Again there are no blueprints in Islam, nor could there be 1400 years ago, about modern democratic forms. If a population is democratic or otherwise, is a function of present political culture or degree of socio - economic advancement. In Iran the class that took power, the wealthy land owners, factory owners, the wealthy Bazzar together with large portion of clergy, were not and are not democratic. Partly bacause the right wing is strong. Partly bacause the left wing is weak. Islam has nothing to do with it. Irrelevant.


Here we can learn about good and progressive points, about other democratic systems. Start with Sweden. One of the corrupt. Western society in decline.!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Sweden

The political standpoint of some groups in Iran, during the revolution, was not in accordance with that of mainstream. They may not have supported having an office of supreme leader. Or even if they did, they had a different political ideology. They represented other social classes. Some were representing the wealthier and Liberal minded middle class. Some the traditional middle class, or Bazzar. Some the working class. Fault in politics rests with people or groups, that participate in or initiate political killing. Ideology is permitted. Even if one is not in agreement with it. The Shah initiated murder and political killing. Then elements within the present society , and some armed groups initiated murder and killing. Then some groups retaliated to this killing, by declaring an armed struggle. Like MKO. And some groups went like lambs to slaughter, without any killing. Like Iranian socialists. The tudeh party.  There can be no room for political progress, in Iran, without first identifying and removing all those responsible for political murder. And only then can Iranians move forward to a democratic  and bright future. Without political killing.

I think you asked a good question, about why the west opposes democracy in other countries. But supports it in their own country. My answer, is that, like everything else, what gives power to another population, takes away from their power in the world. They can no longer dominate. They prefer to establish one person or a small group or minority in power, in an underdeveloped country. They can bribe or coerce this individual. To allow them to rule. But if majority of a population is in power, then they can not bribe or coerce. And they can not rule over the waves.

It’s funny that the west would go with full power and bomb and steal any country and cause mess there which increases the unemployment rate and poverty and spread arms between the people , then the same west would ask why those people are not democratic ?! well simple answer is : because the west is criminal .
The U.S. administrations used to made ""democracy promotion"" a key element of U.S. foreign policy. As example , for Bill Clinton, it was the “National Security Strategy of Engagement and Enlargement.” For George W. Bush, it was the “Freedom Agenda” .
American presidents speak of liberty as God's plan for humanity, I’m wondering since when God began disclosing his plan to presidents !

And what is the result ?  nearly a quarter of the world’s democracies have eroded or relapsed in the past 40 years. . Failures in Libya, Yemen, and Iraq, the obvious backsliding in Turkey, Hungary, Poland, and elsewhere, and the democratic dysfunctions in the EU and in the USA  itself , people there dont have direct democracy except in limited ways (usually state government ballot initiatives like marijuana legalization and certain taxes for example).

Some people don’t give a damn about a state’s regime-type or domestic institutions and care even less about the goal of promoting democracy. But this is totally wrong. The regime-type and internal arrangements matter (Kenneth Waltz wrote a whole book comparing different democratic orders) , they just believe relative power and the need for security are usually more important and that systemic pressures often lead dissimilar regimes to act in strikingly similar ways. The U.S. has often failed to live up to democracy’s highest ideals. Democracy’s appeal comes in the power it gives individuals to set their own course. U.S should accept that each country will need to find its own path to adopt democracy.

But they could not have done this, without the Iranians themselves. From 1950 to 1980, about 100,000 Iranian Democrats and socialists and some progressive clerics, were tortured and murdered by the Shah secret service

If shah was that bad it means the U.S removed the good one and brought the bad one . By the way I don’t think such numbers are correct .

But none of these could be done, without participation of Iranians themselves

If we go to any country we will find some groups which want to remove the government and the ruler but this doesn’t by anyway give us the right to go and remove that government , things will be worse .

But now we have no American torture advisers in Iran

They have  more worse things, they put sanctions to torture the whole country and make the poor people more poorer and give the regime more reasons to use more power to save the country and itself from US threats . In Iraq , the US sanctions killed half million Iraqi children , how can Iraq apply the “western democracy “ in such circumstances .

It is ignorance that best guides people

Most of westerners are lazy and ignorant .Americans are dreadfully misinformed or downright ignorant.  The percentage of Americans who can't answer basic civic questions is frightening.  There have been numerous articles about this subject.  I remember one entitled "Are We Too Dumb for Democracy?" that revealed an almost unbelievable lack of knowledge.  According to their survey 20 percent of the public thought the sun revolved around the earth .You can find Parties where everyone had a masters degree in international relations from top schools and they didn’t understand much about the world. Americans grow up brainwashed that America is perfect and number one. That all other nations are inferior.

The US education system does not teach critical thinking. In many conservative states people aren’t even learning science apparently.Not even 5% of Americans would understand how many bombs the US dropped in Laos (580,000 bombing missions—equal to a planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24-hours a day, for 9 years ) or how it toppled democratically elected leaders all over the world from Chile to Iran to Indonesia ..etc. A lot of Americans dont know what continent their country is on, some cant find it on a map. Much less point to relatively large countries like China .

Again there are no blueprints in Islam, nor could there be 1400 years ago, about modern democratic forms

Millions of Muslims  practice their own democracies or belong to other’s democracies and still practice Islam too , ample proof that there is no inherent discord between the two ideas, most scholars say .Other Muslim countries face some problems like point to a mix of  west wars on them , cultural, economic, and political factors but not Islam as a religion is the problem .

Here we can learn about good and progressive points, about other democratic systems. Start with Sweden. One of the corrupt. Western society in decline.!

I'm wondering what will happen if U.S go to bomb Sweden and put sanctions on it and steal their wealth and order CIA to assassinate the leaders there , what will be the democracy status that time there ?

Darwin is truly the Left's greatest enemy.